Is God Three?

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
I'm not really sure what that means, but I am fairly sure it is not in line with my beliefs.



This is very simple:
First, we all agree that the Father is God, so I will not bother to proof that.

Second, the Bible is explicit that Jesus also is God. In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I AM" or YHWH (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

Perhaps most important are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. The "First and the Last" is an Old Testament title of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12). This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13). This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

So that wraps up number 2, that Jesus is God.

Third, the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible is pretty clear on that in 1 Cor. 2:10–13, Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28, and many other places so I won't go into depth on that one here.

THEREFORE: Since the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9), and it also clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13), and since we all agree that the Father is God, and at the same time we know there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19), the only way we hold all four truths is by saying that all three are one God.

HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

We have to grasp the difficult concept that one being does not necessarily equate to one person.

A cat or a dog is one being and NO persons. A bird or a fish is one being and NO persons. A human is one being and ONE person. God is one being and THREE persons.

"Being" refers to what we are. "Person" refers to who we are. God, the Bible states, is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. WHO he is is three persons. WHAT he is is one God.

** Also, those who deny the Trinity usually also deny the Divinity of Christ, and this too is an old heresy

God is ONE, no matter how you define it, since the Infinite One is the UNIT from which all multiples emerge into infinity, all potentials and possibilities. Life is ONE. You can impose, assume God as being '3 persons' or not,....the reality of God as the Singular, Indivisible, Absolute Reality remains what IT is :)
 

Catholic Crusader

Kyrie Eleison
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That is an evil doctrine. It dishonors the one true God that Jesus spoke of in John 17:3.

LOL! What Jesus are you talking about, your gardener? Jesus Christ called HIMSELF GOD!! Read your Bible!

As I just posted, the Bible is explicit that Jesus also is God. In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I AM" or YHWH (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

Perhaps most important are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. The "First and the Last" is an Old Testament title of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12). This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13). This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

The Son is the Second Person of the Trinity
 

freelight

Eclectic Theosophist
Some schooling on John 8:58

Some schooling on John 8:58

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I AM" or YHWH (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

We've addressed this assumption in other threads,....John 8:58 does not prove Jesus is YHWH, since 'ego eimi' is not the name of God revealed in Ex. 3:14, and many other people use the term 'ego eimi' in the NT scriptures,...its a common word of affirmming that one is the subject being spoken of, relative to the context of what is being referred to. Also the greek 'ego eimi' does not equate to the hebrew 'ehyeh asher ehyeh' in approximate meaning, as "I will be whatever I will be", or even as the 'Self existing One',....and the Greek Septuagint as well, translates the tetragrammaton as 'ego eimi ho on',...(I am The Being). Jesus in John 8:58 was not claiming to be YHWH, but indicating that he was the Messiah that even Abraham looked forward to, and that he had a pre-existence before Abraham in the Mind of God as the One coming to fulfill God's plan. Jesus did not say, my name is "ehyeh asher ehyeh" ....and he did not say "ego eimi ho on" (I am The BEING). So this allusion to this passage as a claim for Jesus being God Almighty is a presumptuous based on preconceived doctrinal bias. There is no support for it grammatically. At best Jesus is claiming his pre-existence and Christhood as co-eternal within God, since the logos was always in the Mind of God from eternity, from before Moses , the patriarchs and the prophets. He comes to fulfill all things, as God's Anointed AGENT. Consider the concept of 'agency' here. It is sufficient enough to respect the Messiah-Son of God as representing 'God', AS his Messiah. To metaphysically FUSE Them together into a multi-personalitied 'God', is possible, but not necessary.

Jesus Did Not Declare His Deity in John 8:58

 

keypurr

Well-known member
LOL! What Jesus are you talking about, your gardener? Jesus Christ called HIMSELF GOD!! Read your Bible!

As I just posted, the Bible is explicit that Jesus also is God. In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I AM" or YHWH (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

Perhaps most important are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. The "First and the Last" is an Old Testament title of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12). This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13). This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

The Son is the Second Person of the Trinity

There is no Trinity. Only the Father is God, believe in the words of your Lord Jesus Christ. John 17:3
 

Tigger 2

Active member
CatholicCrusader wrote:
First, we all agree that the Father is God, so I will not bother to proof that.

Second, the Bible is explicit that Jesus also is God. In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I AM" or YHWH (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).
.....................................

First, look at the hundreds of places where the Father (YHWH) is clearly called God. Then look at all the places where that God is described as 'ONE.'

Now show me one place in scripture where God is called 'THREE.'

As for John 5:18 Jesus' opponents said that he violated the Sabbath (actually he only violated their added rules) and, they (Jesus' ENEMIES) said that calling God his Father was 'making himself equal to God.'

Jesus did not break the Sabbath, and he certainly did not make himself equal to God by calling God his father! Anyone can call his creator 'Father'! These ENEMIES of Jesus wanted him dead and were making up excuses to kill him. He never called himself God. And anything that has to be interpreted to mean that he did is not a clear, certain statement at all!

John 8:58 is Jesus' answer to how he could have known Abraham who had been dead for many generations. His answer was not an answer to his identity (like the ex-blind man at John 9:9- ego eimi), but to the length of his existence. 'Before Abraham, God' does not make sense. "Before Abraham, I am (I existed; I was; etc.)" is the correct understanding. If the use of ego eimi means a claim to being God, then the ex-blind man should have been stoned on the spot. The same goes for Jesus' earlier uses of ego eimi.

Furthermore, Exodus 3:14 uses ehyeh in Hebrew. This was never a name of God, which Moses already knew, but an explanation of His name. Ehyeh as used in all of Moses' other writings is always understood to mean "I will be." In fact, it is properly translated in Exodus 3:12 just before this faulty translation in 3:14. So, since this is not God's name, and it is used for him only this once in connection with his name, the fake connection to the 'I am' of John 8:58 is just silly.

If you really want to see his actual personal name (which is used many thousands of times in scripture), see Psalm 83:18 in the KJV or nearly any OT page in the Hebrew Scriptures. (Try the ASV or the NJB.)

If you have a real trinity 'proof' scripture, please give it and I will try to examine it as carefully as trinitarian translators and commentators should have done.
 

Tigger 2

Active member
CC finished his evidence for Jesus being God:
Perhaps most important are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. The "First and the Last" is an Old Testament title of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12). This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13). This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

So that wraps up number 2, that Jesus is God.
First, the expression 'first and last' simply means 'only.' Adam was the first and last man made from the dust of the earth by God.

Jesus is the first and the last (only one) of creatures created personally by God himself. All others were created by God through the work of his Only-begotten Son. Jesus is the first and the last (only) person to be raised from the dead to eternal life by God. All others are to be raised up by God through the work of the Only-begotten Son.

Second, 'Alpha and Omega' does appear to be used as a title for God.

Although it is very common that the words of one speaker slide right into those of another speaker (e.g., Is. 10:4, 7), it also happens that sometimes the writer identifies the new speaker. As we see in Daniel, for example, Daniel nearly always identifies himself as the new speaker when he uses the words “I, Daniel” whenever it might be confusing to the reader (especially after a different person has been speaking) - Dan. 7:15, 28; 8:15, 27; 12:5. If we then examine Revelation (which is recognized as being similar to, patterned after, and frequently referring to, the Book of Daniel), we find that John also uses this technique. “I, John” identifies a new speaker in every instance John uses it: Rev. 1:9; 22:8. So Rev. 1:9 is merely the statement of a new speaker.

Now let's examine Rev. 22:8-16. John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in :)9). The angel apparently continues speaking in :)10). The angel may be still speaking in :)11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB,1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in :)12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It’s entirely a matter of translator’s choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millenium Bible, and TEV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12. Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 (“I am Alpha and Omega”).

Now the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker(s) of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other highly respected trinitarian translations do not!

The RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millenium Bible, and TEV show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words. (The Jerusalem Bible and the NJB show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV, you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

And, just as the use of “I, John” indicated a new speaker in Revelation, so does the only other such usage in that same book. Yes, Rev. 22:16 - “I, Jesus” also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) was made by someone else!

Even the KJV translators, who didn't even use quotation marks, have shown by their use of the word “his” in verse 14 that they didn’t mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing “His Commandments” (not “My Commandments”)! Therefore the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young’s Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); and Revised Webster Bible. Lamsa’s translation (Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text) also uses “him.“

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

In short, there is no reason, other than a desire to support the trinity tradition, to believe that Jesus is being called “Alpha and Omega” in Rev. 22. And there is good evidence to believe that it is his Father only who uses this title for himself.

We should ask ourselves why Trinitarian teachers insist on such dubious (at best) 'proofs'!!
 

JudgeRightly

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CC finished his evidence for Jesus being God:

First, the expression 'first and last' simply means 'only.' Adam was the first and last man made from the dust of the earth by God.

Jesus is the first and the last (only one) of creatures created personally by God himself. All others were created by God through the work of his Only-begotten Son. Jesus is the first and the last (only) person to be raised from the dead to eternal life by God. All others are to be raised up by God through the work of the Only-begotten Son.

Second, 'Alpha and Omega' does appear to be used as a title for God.

Although it is very common that the words of one speaker slide right into those of another speaker (e.g., Is. 10:4, 7), it also happens that sometimes the writer identifies the new speaker. As we see in Daniel, for example, Daniel nearly always identifies himself as the new speaker when he uses the words “I, Daniel” whenever it might be confusing to the reader (especially after a different person has been speaking) - Dan. 7:15, 28; 8:15, 27; 12:5. If we then examine Revelation (which is recognized as being similar to, patterned after, and frequently referring to, the Book of Daniel), we find that John also uses this technique. “I, John” identifies a new speaker in every instance John uses it: Rev. 1:9; 22:8. So Rev. 1:9 is merely the statement of a new speaker.

Now let's examine Rev. 22:8-16. John is identified as the speaker in 22:8. The angel speaks in :)9). The angel apparently continues speaking in :)10). The angel may be still speaking in :)11) --- or it could be John or even someone else (as implied in verse 10 in the NAB,1970 ed.).

Now is the angel still speaking in :)12) or is it God, or is it Jesus, or even John? There is simply no way of telling who the speaker is from any of the early Bible manuscripts. It’s entirely a matter of translator’s choice. Some translators have decided it is the angel who continues to speak, and they punctuate it accordingly. So the JB, and NJB use quotation marks to show that these are all words spoken by the angel.

However, the RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millenium Bible, and TEV show by their use of quotation marks that someone else is now speaking in verse 12. Most Bibles indicate that the person who spoke verse 12 (whether God, angel, Jesus, or John) also spoke verse 13 (“I am Alpha and Omega”).

Now the big question is: Is it clear that the speaker(s) of verses 12 and 13 continues to speak? Some Bibles indicate this. But other highly respected trinitarian translations do not!

The RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millenium Bible, and TEV show (by quotation marks and indenting) that Rev. 22:14 and 15 are not the words of the speaker of verses 12 and 13 but are John’s words. (The Jerusalem Bible and the NJB show us that the angel spoke all the words from verse 10 through verse 15.) Then they show Jesus as a new speaker beginning to speak in verse 16.

So, if you insist that the person speaking just before verse 16 is the same person who is speaking in verse 16, then, according to the trinitarian RSV, NRSV, NASB, NEB, REB, NKJV, NAB (1991 ed.), ESV, ISV, NLT, 21st Century King James Version, Third Millennium Bible, and TEV, you are saying John is Jesus!!! (According to the JB and NJB you would be insisting that the angel is Jesus!)

And, just as the use of “I, John” indicated a new speaker in Revelation, so does the only other such usage in that same book. Yes, Rev. 22:16 - “I, Jesus” also introduces a new speaker. This means, of course, that the previous statement (“I am the Alpha and Omega”) was made by someone else!

Even the KJV translators, who didn't even use quotation marks, have shown by their use of the word “his” in verse 14 that they didn’t mean that Jesus was the same speaker as the Alpha and Omega. The speaker of verse 13 is Almighty God. The comment in verse 14 of these Bibles (as literally translated from the Received Text) explains the importance of doing “His Commandments” (not “My Commandments”)! Therefore the speaker of verse 14 is obviously not God as clearly stated by those Bibles which were translated from the Received Text, e.g., KJV; NKJV; KJIIV; MKJV; Young’s Literal Translation; Webster Bible (by Noah Webster); and Revised Webster Bible. Lamsa’s translation (Holy Bible From the Ancient Eastern Text) also uses “him.“

So we can easily see that there is no reason to say Jesus spoke the words recorded at Rev. 22:13 (or the above-named trinitarian Bibles would surely have so translated it!) and, in fact, the context really identifies the speaker as being the same person who spoke at Rev. 1:8, God Almighty, Jehovah, the Father.

In short, there is no reason, other than a desire to support the trinity tradition, to believe that Jesus is being called “Alpha and Omega” in Rev. 22. And there is good evidence to believe that it is his Father only who uses this title for himself.

We should ask ourselves why Trinitarian teachers insist on such dubious (at best) 'proofs'!!
How about the fact that if Christ was not the Eternal God, His death COULD NOT save anyone at all?
 

KingdomRose

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LOL! What Jesus are you talking about, your gardener? Jesus Christ called HIMSELF GOD!! Read your Bible!

As I just posted, the Bible is explicit that Jesus also is God. In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I AM" or YHWH (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

Perhaps most important are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. The "First and the Last" is an Old Testament title of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12). This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13). This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

The Son is the Second Person of the Trinity

Excuse me, but Jesus did not call himself God. Perhaps you had better study YOUR Bible. He is not the Alpha and Omega of the Apocalypse, and this can be explained to you if you'd be interested. Apocalypse 1:8 does not refer to Jesus but to the Father. There is no place in the Bible that shows that Jesus is a "second person of a trinity."
 

JudgeRightly

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Excuse me, but Jesus did not call himself God. Perhaps you had better study YOUR Bible. He is not the Alpha and Omega of the Apocalypse, and this can be explained to you if you'd be interested. Apocalypse 1:8 does not refer to Jesus but to the Father. There is no place in the Bible that shows that Jesus is a "second person of a trinity."

If Jesus was not the eternal God, then His death saved ABSOLUTELY NO ONE.

Jesus is referred to as God in several places in the Bible.

That's two significant witnesses.

By two or three witnesses a matter shall be established.
 

KingdomRose

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When the true nature of God was understood by man is beside the point. God is Trinity. That is the eternal truth of our existence. The Bible makes it plain and clear.

"God in his deepest mystery is not a solitude but a family, since he has in himself fatherhood, sonship and the essence of the family which is love" - Saint Pope John Paul II

"The true nature of God" as the Trinity was not accepted until over three hundred years after Jesus' ministry. That's a long time to have a doctrine be argued over. Why was it argued over? Because it was not a Biblical teaching, and it was not clear even to those who espoused it. You say that the Bible makes it "plain and clear." How does it do that?

You seem to accept "mystery" as truth. Do you really think that God would be a MYSTERY, so much so that we can't understand who he is? Jesus said that we can get to know God, and he called his FATHER "the only true God," not himself. (John 17:3) Get out your Bible and look up a few verses, and tell me which ones say that Jesus is the second member of the trinity of Gods.
 

glorydaz

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"The true nature of God" as the Trinity was not accepted until over three hundred years after Jesus' ministry. That's a long time to have a doctrine be argued over. Why was it argued over? Because it was not a Biblical teaching, and it was not clear even to those who espoused it. You say that the Bible makes it "plain and clear." How does it do that?

That's just plain silly. We see the nature of God being triune from the very beginning in Genesis clear through to the end in Revelation.
 

Tambora

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If Jesus was not the eternal God, then His death saved ABSOLUTELY NO ONE.

Jesus is referred to as God in several places in the Bible.

That's two significant witnesses.

By two or three witnesses a matter shall be established.
Exactly.
it's not like His own disciples were calling Him Lord and God and Savior just to throw people off the track.
 

JudgeRightly

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"The true nature of God" as the Trinity was not accepted until over three hundred years after Jesus' ministry. That's a long time to have a doctrine be argued over. Why was it argued over? Because it was not a Biblical teaching, and it was not clear even to those who espoused it. You say that the Bible makes it "plain and clear." How does it do that?

You seem to accept "mystery" as truth. Do you really think that God would be a MYSTERY, so much so that we can't understand who he is? Jesus said that we can get to know God, and he called his FATHER "the only true God," not himself. (John 17:3) Get out your Bible and look up a few verses, and tell me which ones say that Jesus is the second member of the trinity of Gods.

You seem to like filling your posts against trinitarians with straw men arguments.

It's really annoying.

Please stop.

You try to lower God by saying if he's not able to be comprehended by man, then He must not be this way or that way.

You blatantly reject some scripture in favor of a single verse (John 17:3, typically) or set of verses, instead of accepting what the entire Bible says as a whole.

And then you demand that we do the same, as if we base our entire theology on just a few verses.

KR, YOU ARE A HERETIC, A LIAR, A FOOL, AND ON YOUR WAY TO HELL, BECAUSE YOU REJECT WHAT GOD TEACHES IN HIS WORD.

You need to humble yourself before Him, before you end up separated from Him for the rest of eternity.
 

KingdomRose

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I'm not really sure what that means, but I am fairly sure it is not in line with my beliefs.



This is very simple:
First, we all agree that the Father is God, so I will not bother to proof that.

Second, the Bible is explicit that Jesus also is God. In John 5:18 we are told that Jesus’ opponents sought to kill him because he "called God his Father, making himself equal with God."

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I AM" or YHWH (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

Perhaps most important are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. The "First and the Last" is an Old Testament title of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12). This title is directly applied to Jesus three times in the book of Revelation: "When I saw him [Christ], I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand upon me, saying, ‘Fear not, I am the First and the Last’" (Rev. 1:17). "And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: ‘The words of the First and the Last, who died and came to life’" (Rev. 2:8). "Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense, to repay every one for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the beginning and the end" (Rev. 22:12–13). This last quote is especially significant since it applies to Jesus the parallel title "the Alpha and the Omega," which Revelation earlier applied to the Lord God: "‘I am the Alpha and the Omega,’ says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8).

So that wraps up number 2, that Jesus is God.

Third, the Holy Spirit is God. The Bible is pretty clear on that in 1 Cor. 2:10–13, Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28, and many other places so I won't go into depth on that one here.

THEREFORE: Since the Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9), and it also clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13), and since we all agree that the Father is God, and at the same time we know there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19), the only way we hold all four truths is by saying that all three are one God.

HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

We have to grasp the difficult concept that one being does not necessarily equate to one person.

A cat or a dog is one being and NO persons. A bird or a fish is one being and NO persons. A human is one being and ONE person. God is one being and THREE persons.

"Being" refers to what we are. "Person" refers to who we are. God, the Bible states, is Father, Son, Holy Spirit. WHO he is is three persons. WHAT he is is one God.

** Also, those who deny the Trinity usually also deny the Divinity of Christ, and this too is an old heresy

You offer John 5:18 as proof that Jesus is God. Have you read the entire passage? Jesus immediately rebuffs their accusation. Did you see that? He said to them, I can't do a single thing of my own initiative but only what I observe the Father doing; whatever He does I copy that, and do just like He does. (verse 19) Does God have to copy anybody? No. Jesus was telling them that he WAS NOT GOD.

Are you familiar at all with all the lies the Pharisees told about Jesus? Do you know that they said that he was demon-possessed? They did! (John 8:48,52) So why would you believe that they were being truthful when they accused him of claiming to be God? He never did!

For a rebuttal to your inference that Jesus is God because of what he supposedly said at John 8:58, see the thread "Response to the Request to Rebut Graphics saying Jesus is Jehovah" that I just started. His audience did not understand that he was claiming to be God. They resented him because he was saying that he had more authority than Abraham by saying he had lived before Abraham was born.

A cat or a dog is one being, and of course not a "person" because they are not intelligent beings like humans or spirit beings. Are you equating God and Jesus with animals? It CAN be said of them that they are beings AND Persons. To say that God is three Persons and yet one Being is silly. A human is one being and one person. An animal is one being and no persons. This is somehow to help us understand that God is one Being and THREE Persons? Someone is pulling your leg, honey.

You say yourself that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the H.S. is God. Add them up. That's THREE GODS.

You can call what you wish a "heresy." At one time the belief in the Diety of Christ was also termed a heresy. It depended on who was politically powerful at a certain time. You need to study more.
 

JudgeRightly

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You offer John 5:18 as proof that Jesus is God. Have you read the entire passage? Jesus immediately rebuffs their accusation. Did you see that? He said to them, I can't do a single thing of my own initiative but only what I observe the Father doing; whatever He does I copy that, and do just like He does. (verse 19) Does God have to copy anybody? No. Jesus was telling them that he WAS NOT GOD.

Are you familiar at all with all the lies the Pharisees told about Jesus? Do you know that they said that he was demon-possessed? They did! (John 8:48,52) So why would you believe that they were being truthful when they accused him of claiming to be God? He never did!

For a rebuttal to your inference that Jesus is God because of what he supposedly said at John 8:58, see the thread "Response to the Request to Rebut Graphics saying Jesus is Jehovah" that I just started. His audience did not understand that he was claiming to be God. They resented him because he was saying that he had more authority than Abraham by saying he had lived before Abraham was born.

A cat or a dog is one being, and of course not a "person" because they are not intelligent beings like humans or spirit beings. Are you equating God and Jesus with animals? It CAN be said of them that they are beings AND Persons. To say that God is three Persons and yet one Being is silly. A human is one being and one person. An animal is one being and no persons. This is somehow to help us understand that God is one Being and THREE Persons? Someone is pulling your leg, honey.

You say yourself that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the H.S. is God. Add them up. That's THREE GODS.

You can call what you wish a "heresy." At one time the belief in the Diety of Christ was also termed a heresy. It depended on who was politically powerful at a certain time. You need to study more.
More straw man arguments. When are you going to actually learn what it is trinitarians believe and argue against that, instead of this straw man you seem to have built with what you think we believe?
 
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