I believe in the father, the son and the Holy Spirit, but I don't believe in a triune God. The father is the only true God as said by Jesus himself, he is also the God of Jesus, just as Jesus and the apostles say and the son is under subjection to the father as clearly shown in the Bible, and God is the head of Christ.
That's pretty clear to me that God is also the God of Jesus, do you want some verses to show you why I believe as do?
By the way you've quoted Hebrews 1:8-9 but Hebrews 1:9 totally contradicts what you are saying
Hebrews 1:9
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore GOD EVEN THY GOD, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
That quite clearly shows that God is above Christ and that Christ Jesus has been anointed by God. The Bible also shows us that God exalted Christ Jesus to his right hand above all of us, thus the father who is God is higher than Christ Jesus and he has put him in a position above all of us making him a Lord to us.
I believe in the father, the son and the Holy Spirit, but I don't believe in a triune God. The father is the only true God as said by Jesus himself, he is also the God of Jesus, just as Jesus and the apostles say and the son is under subjection to the father as clearly shown in the Bible, and God is the head of Christ.
That's pretty clear to me that God is also the God of Jesus, do you want some verses to show you why I believe as do?
By the way you've quoted Hebrews 1:8-9 but Hebrews 1:9 totally contradicts what you are saying
Hebrews 1:9
Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore GOD EVEN THY GOD, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
That quite clearly shows that God is above Christ and that Christ Jesus has been anointed by God. The Bible also shows us that God exalted Christ Jesus to his right hand above all of us, thus the father who is God is higher than Christ Jesus and he has put him in a position above all of us making him a Lord to us.
Marhig, in verse 8, who is the Father speaking to? The Son, yes? What does the Father call the Son?
The Father calls the Son "God."
Marhig, is Jesus the Son? If yes, then my position is justified. If Jesus is not the Son, then you need to show that your position (that He is not the Son of God, if that is the case) is supported by Scripture.
Now, keeping in mind that Scripture does not contradict itself...
Marhig, in verse 9, is the Father still speaking to the Son? Yes. So, if the Father (who is God) is still speaking to the Son (who is God), then who is the God who anointed the Son? Answer: The Holy Spirit. No, not mentioned by name, but by action.
Spoiler
Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” - Matthew 3:13-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew3:13-17&version=NKJV
Spoiler
It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” - Mark 1:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark1:9-11&version=NKJV
Spoiler
When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened.And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.” - Luke 3:21-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke3:21-22&version=NKJV
Spoiler
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.” - John 1:29-34 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:29-34&version=NKJV
In verse 9 (which does not contradict verse 8's calling of the Son "God"), there are three "God"s.
The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.
All three are called God, yet the rest of the Bible says there is one God. So, either these two verses contradict the rest of the Bible, OR, the Trinity doctrine is (for all intents and purposes) correct.
Marhig, when taken in context, does Hebrews 1:8-9 indicate that there is only one God (who is three Persons (as the trinity doctrine states), or does Hebrews 1:8-9 indicate that there are multiple Gods? Because they cannot, I repeat, CANNOT be saying that only the Father is God, as you said in the first post from you which I quoted in this post.
Literally the NT Greek manuscripts read at Heb. 1:8: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age”.
The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for Ps. 45:6 (which is being quoted in Heb. 1:8):
“God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)
(And the revised 1991 ed. of the NAB actually translates Ps. 45:6, 7 as “Your throne, O god.”) The NAB (1970 ed., St. Joseph Edition) goes on to explain in its footnote for Ps. 45, 7 (6), however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [Jehovah].”
Now we’re getting close to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”
Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.
Oxford professor and famed trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:
“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”
University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule reluctantly admits that Heb. 1:8 may conceivably be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.
An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”
And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”
The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”
NSB - God is your throne
Mace - "God is thy throne….”
Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’
Noted trinitarian NT scholar Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”
The point is that there are two grammatically honest ways for Heb. 1:8 to be translated. When even a number of respected trinitarian scholars and translators choose the non-trinitarian version (as above), we can be pretty sure that it is the probable meaning intended by the original writer.
Marhig, in verse 8, who is the Father speaking to? The Son, yes? What does the Father call the Son?
The Father calls the Son "God."
Marhig, is Jesus the Son? If yes, then my position is justified. If Jesus is not the Son, then you need to show that your position (that He is not the Son of God, if that is the case) is supported by Scripture.
Now, keeping in mind that Scripture does not contradict itself...
Marhig, in verse 9, is the Father still speaking to the Son? Yes. So, if the Father (who is God) is still speaking to the Son (who is God), then who is the God who anointed the Son? Answer: The Holy Spirit. No, not mentioned by name, but by action.
Spoiler
Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” - Matthew 3:13-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew3:13-17&version=NKJV
Spoiler
It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” - Mark 1:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark1:9-11&version=NKJV
Spoiler
When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened.And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.” - Luke 3:21-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke3:21-22&version=NKJV
Spoiler
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.” - John 1:29-34 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:29-34&version=NKJV
In verse 9 (which does not contradict verse 8's calling of the Son "God"), there are three "God"s.
The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.
All three are called God, yet the rest of the Bible says there is one God. So, either these two verses contradict the rest of the Bible, OR, the Trinity doctrine is (for all intents and purposes) correct.
Marhig, when taken in context, does Hebrews 1:8-9 indicate that there is only one God (who is three Persons (as the trinity doctrine states), or does Hebrews 1:8-9 indicate that there are multiple Gods? Because they cannot, I repeat, CANNOT be saying that only the Father is God, as you said in the first post from you which I quoted in this post.
JR, your position on the trinity is nothing to do with me, if you believe it then that's up to you. I know it's not the truth. And my point still stands, that according to Hebrews 1 verse 9 Christ Jesus has a God and his God has anointed him above all of his fellows. He didn't anoint himself, he was anointed by his God.
Also, tell me why I shouldn't believe the following verses. Which clearly show us that God the father is the God and father of Christ Jesus?
John 7:16
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
2 Thessalonians 2
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?(Matthew 26:39 & 27:46 KJV)
Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.(John 20:17 KJV)
I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.(John 14:28 KJV)
John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God(Mark 10:17-18 KJV)
And that is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)
But I would have you know that the head of every man in Christ and the head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3).
For there is one God and one mediator between God and man,the man Christ Jesus.(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort. (2Corinthians 1:3 KJV)
Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;]/b] if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together(Romans 8)
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (rev 12)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3 KJV)
1 Peter 3 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.(Hebrews 10)
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh,that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent..I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Ephesians 1
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him
Revelation 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him
Revelation 3
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Ephesians 4:6 KJV)
JR, your position on the trinity is nothing to do with me, if you believe it then that's up to you. I know it's not the truth. And my point still stands, that according to Hebrews 1 verse 9 Christ Jesus has a God and his God has anointed him above all of his fellows. He didn't anoint himself, he was anointed by his God.
Also, tell me why I shouldn't believe the following verses. Which clearly show us that God the father is the God and father of Christ Jesus?
John 7:16
Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me. If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
2 Thessalonians 2
Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace, Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
1 Corinthians 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?(Matthew 26:39 & 27:46 KJV)
Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father I ascend unto my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.(John 20:17 KJV)
I go unto the Father, for my Father is greater than I.(John 14:28 KJV)
John 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
Why callest thou me good? There is none good but one, that is God(Mark 10:17-18 KJV)
And that is none other God but one. For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father of whom are all things and we in him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things and we by him. (1 Corinthians 8:4-6 KJV)
But I would have you know that the head of every man in Christ and the head of the woman is the man and the head of Christ is God. (1 Corinthians 11:3).
For there is one God and one mediator between God and man,the man Christ Jesus.(1 Timothy 2:5 KJV)
Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and the God of all comfort. (2Corinthians 1:3 KJV)
Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;]/b] if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together(Romans 8)
1 Timothy 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; 1:2 Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ (rev 12)
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (1 Peter 1:3 KJV)
1 Peter 3 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.(Hebrews 10)
These words spake Jesus, and lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that thy Son also may glorify thee: As thou hast given him power over all flesh,that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent..I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
Ephesians 1
That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him
Revelation 1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him
Revelation 3
Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name..He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.(Ephesians 4:6 KJV)
Marhig, in verse 8, who is the Father speaking to? The Son, yes? What does the Father call the Son?
The Father calls the Son "God."
Marhig, is Jesus the Son? If yes, then my position is justified. If Jesus is not the Son, then you need to show that your position (that He is not the Son of God, if that is the case) is supported by Scripture.
Now, keeping in mind that Scripture does not contradict itself...
Marhig, in verse 9, is the Father still speaking to the Son? Yes. So, if the Father (who is God) is still speaking to the Son (who is God), then who is the God who anointed the Son? Answer: The Holy Spirit. No, not mentioned by name, but by action.
Spoiler
Then Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him.And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?”But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him.When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” - Matthew 3:13-17 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew3:13-17&version=NKJV
Spoiler
It came to pass in those days that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized by John in the Jordan.And immediately, coming up from the water, He saw the heavens parting and the Spirit descending upon Him like a dove.Then a voice came from heaven, “You are My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” - Mark 1:9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark1:9-11&version=NKJV
Spoiler
When all the people were baptized, it came to pass that Jesus also was baptized; and while He prayed, the heaven was opened.And the Holy Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heaven which said, “You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased.” - Luke 3:21-22 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke3:21-22&version=NKJV
Spoiler
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!This is He of whom I said, ‘After me comes a Man who is preferred before me, for He was before me.’I did not know Him; but that He should be revealed to Israel, therefore I came baptizing with water.”And John bore witness, saying, “I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’And I have seen and testified that this is the Son of God.” - John 1:29-34 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John1:29-34&version=NKJV
In verse 9 (which does not contradict verse 8's calling of the Son "God"), there are three "God"s.
The Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit.
All three are called God, yet the rest of the Bible says there is one God. So, either these two verses contradict the rest of the Bible, OR, the Trinity doctrine is (for all intents and purposes) correct.
Marhig, when taken in context, does Hebrews 1:8-9 indicate that there is only one God (who is three Persons (as the trinity doctrine states), or does Hebrews 1:8-9 indicate that there are multiple Gods? Because they cannot, I repeat, CANNOT be saying that only the Father is God, as you said in the first post from you which I quoted in this post.
Literally the NT Greek manuscripts read at Heb. 1:8: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age”.
The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for Ps. 45:6 (which is being quoted in Heb. 1:8):
“God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)
(And the revised 1991 ed. of the NAB actually translates Ps. 45:6, 7 as “Your throne, O god.”) The NAB (1970 ed., St. Joseph Edition) goes on to explain in its footnote for Ps. 45, 7 (6), however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [Jehovah].”
Now we’re getting close to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”
Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.
Oxford professor and famed trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:
“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”
University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule reluctantly admits that Heb. 1:8 may conceivably be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.
An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”
And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”
The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”
NSB - God is your throne
Mace - "God is thy throne….”
Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’
Noted trinitarian NT scholar Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”
The point is that there are two grammatically honest ways for Heb. 1:8 to be translated. When even a number of respected trinitarian scholars and translators choose the non-trinitarian version (as above), we can be pretty sure that it is the probable meaning intended by the original writer.
I'm not quite sure what you want me to reply to, you say that God is equal and three person's, but I have showed you clearly that the father is the God of Christ Jesus so God is not 3 equal persons that all make one God at all. How can that be if God is the God of Christ Jesus which the scriptures I have quoted clearly show? And the son is under subjection to God and he has been exalted and anointed by God? So how can he then be God? And equal to the father, the only way is because the father has put him in that position, not that he has always been a part of a trinity
And there's this
1 Corinthians 15:27
For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.
And some here call people like me "lost" and "not belonging to Christ" judging our hearts because we don't believe in the trinity, yet I have printed many verses that show us that it is the father who is God and that the trinity doctrine cannot be true. It was made up by men 300 years after Christ, and they started with a duality, leaving out the Holy Spirit, deciding to add him in at a later date to make a triune God.
I believe what the scriptures teach, that the father is God, and Jesus is the Christ the son of the living God, and I believe in the Holy Spirit. And according to Jesus, eternal life is to know that that father is the only true God and that he sent Christ Jesus. And he said himself that the father is his God and I believe him.
And according to the Bible, I am to believe in the father, and that Jesus is the son of God and is raised from the dead, and in the Holy Spirit, and I do, regardless of what you and your friends think of me and others who believe like I do, that is what we are required to believe according to the scriptures, not that we must believe in a trinity or that Jesus is God or God the son. We are not told to believe that anywhere in the Bible. And we certainly aren't told that we must believe in a trinity to be saved!
I am not suggesting that it is, seeing the basis for my post is not a trinity debate.
However, to address your statement, it is clear that scripture clearly does not teach that God is a trinity.
If God was a trinity, He (or is it they) would have made it clear.
God is not shy about who He is.
He is one, not one of three or three in one.
Take for instance Genesis 1:26-27
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
which is a favorite verse trins use to "prove" the trinity.
Please show me where "trinity" or "three in one" or "Jesus is God" or "Jesus is there with God" or just the number "three" is in those verses?
what is the difference between using verse 26 to "prove" the trinity and me asking you
God's oneness of Being is his constitition....and the natural consequent of his Being (prior to multiplication, differentiation, creative expression). 'God' is the Infinite ONE, the ALL, the Original, the HEART of all. - from this original infinity, this 'echad',....all multiples and numbers exponentially extend.
A Trinity is a conceptual model of the original Godhead in its co-creative economical function and government. Nothing wrong with it as a conceptual model, and you can personify or personalize different aspects of God's Being if you like. 'God' is the Source, essence, creative intelligence and universal CONTEXT of all life and consciousness. (it is beyond number yet includes all numbers).
All multiples, all numbers fall back into their ROOT-source, the essential NO-Thing. From that nothingness, is a formless ONE, then enters into form, a numerical identity of sorts, or value, from which all other qualities and quantifications derive and extend into exisxtence, encompassing an infinitude of qualities and quantities.
The SHEMA ever holds as a truth revealed within Judaism, no matter what religious tradition or spiritual path you embrace or explore, since all derives and inter-relates within The ONE.
And it's not what I am saying, it's the words of the honest interlinear I have, and the words of the trinitarian scholars I have quoted.
Apparently you don't know that when translators put words in brackets [ ], it means those words were not in the original text, but added as the translator understood (or wanted) it to be. (Some Bibles use italics rather than brackets to show translator-added words. The KJV, for example, uses italicized words.)
So, looking at the interlinear you posted for Heb. 1:8, you will see that 'is' is always in brackets [is]. And ὁ is the NT Greek masculine singular definite article ('the') and as shown in the more literal interlinear link below is more properly translated as 'the' instead of 'O' before theos. Since the verbs ('is') are absent in the Greek text for Heb. 1:8, the translators are free to place them where they wish. And can you guess where trinitarian translators would normally place them?
That's why it is so unusual and meaningful that so many trinitarian scholars and translators have placed them as in my post above!
It would be the honest thing to do to admit the truth of this matter.
Literally the NT Greek manuscripts read at Heb. 1:8: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age”.
The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for Ps. 45:6 (which is being quoted in Heb. 1:8):
“God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)
(And the revised 1991 ed. of the NAB actually translates Ps. 45:6, 7 as “Your throne, O god.”) The NAB (1970 ed., St. Joseph Edition) goes on to explain in its footnote for Ps. 45, 7 (6), however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [Jehovah].”
Now we’re getting close to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”
Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.
Oxford professor and famed trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:
“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”
University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule reluctantly admits that Heb. 1:8 may conceivably be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.
An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”
And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”
The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”
NSB - God is your throne
Mace - "God is thy throne….”
Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’
Noted trinitarian NT scholar Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”
The point is that there are two grammatically honest ways for Heb. 1:8 to be translated. When even a number of respected trinitarian scholars and translators choose the non-trinitarian version (as above), we can be pretty sure that it is the probable meaning intended by the original writer.
And it's not what I am saying, it's the words of the honest interlinear I have, and the words of the trinitarian scholars I have quoted.
Apparently you don't know that when translators put words in brackets [ ], it means those words were not in the original text, but added as the translator understood (or wanted) it to be. (Some Bibles use italics rather than brackets to show translator-added words. The KJV, for example, uses italicized words.)
So, looking at the interlinear you posted for Heb. 1:8, you will see that 'is' is always in brackets [is]. And ὁ is the NT Greek masculine singular definite article ('the') and as shown in the more literal interlinear link below is more properly translated as 'the' instead of 'O' before theos. Since the verbs ('is') are absent in the Greek text for Heb. 1:8, the translators are free to place them where they wish. And can you guess where trinitarian translators would normally place them?
8 pros de ton huion ho thronos sou ho theos eis ton aiona tou aionos pabdos euthytetos he pabdos tes basileias sou
9 egapesas dikaiosunen kai emisesas anomian dia touto echrisen se ho theos ho theos sou elaion agalliaseos para tous metochous sou
8 unto however the Son the throne of you the God [is]to the age of ages sceptre righteousness the sceptre of the kingdom of you
9 you have loved righteousness and have hated wickedness because of this has anointed you the God the God of you with[the]oil of exultation above the companions of you
Literally the NT Greek manuscripts read at Heb. 1:8: “Toward but the son the throne of you the god into the age of the age”.
The trinitarian Easy-to-read-Version also says in a footnote for Ps. 45:6 (which is being quoted in Heb. 1:8):
“God .... here the writer might be using the word ‘God’ as a title for the king.” (Cf. NIV Study Bible f.n. for Pss. 45:6 and 82:1, 6.)
(And the revised 1991 ed. of the NAB actually translates Ps. 45:6, 7 as “Your throne, O god.”) The NAB (1970 ed., St. Joseph Edition) goes on to explain in its footnote for Ps. 45, 7 (6), however, that others have translated this verse as, “Your throne is the throne of God” and refers us to 1 Chron. 29:23 “where Solomon’s throne is referred to as the throne of the LORD [Jehovah].”
Now we’re getting close to the most likely intention of Heb. 1:8. There is evidence that the proper translation of Heb. 1:8 (as well as Ps. 45:6) should be “your throne is God forever” or “God is your throne forever.”
Also, if we look at some respected trinitarian authorities, we also see a preference for the “God is thy throne” rendering.
Oxford professor and famed trinitarian Bible translator, Dr. James Moffatt, was described as “probably the greatest biblical scholar of our day.” His Bible translation renders Heb. 1:8 as:
“God is thy throne for ever and ever.”
University of Cambridge professor and noted New Testament language scholar, Dr. C. F. D. Moule reluctantly admits that Heb. 1:8 may conceivably be “construed so as to mean Thy throne is God” - p. 32, An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, Cambridge University Press, 1990 printing.
An American Translation (Smith-Goodspeed), renders it: “God is your throne....”
And The Bible in Living English (Byington) reads: “God is your throne....”
The Message reads: “Your throne is God’s throne….”
NSB - God is your throne
Mace - "God is thy throne….”
Twentieth Century Translation - ‘God is thy throne….’
Noted trinitarian NT scholar Dr. William Barclay, in his translation of the New Testament, has also rendered Hebrews 1:8 as : “God is your throne for ever and ever.”
The point is that there are two grammatically honest ways for Heb. 1:8 to be translated. When even a number of respected trinitarian scholars and translators choose the non-trinitarian version (as above), we can be pretty sure that it is the probable meaning intended by the original writer.
You can't change what scripture says just because you don't like who translated it. You have to read what is said, and read the direct translation. The original Greek literally says, "the throne of you the god..."
Or simply: "your throne, God, ..."
I honestly don't see how it could be translated any other way.
I fear you must be a very poor reader. Besides repeating the interlinear over and over and over... you cannot see that all the verbs ['is'] in it have brackets around them as I clearly pointed out to you. You have also been clearly told that bracketed words are not actually in the NT text but added by the translator simply because that is how he WANTS IT TO READ!
You don't seem to be able to read these clear statements.
Even some Trinitarian translators, as you have also been told, insert the verb 'is' after "the throne of you." Either you are a terrible reader or you willingly refuse to understand.
Besides repeating the interlinear over and over and over... you cannot see that all the verbs ['is'] in it have brackets around them as I clearly pointed out to you.
I am well aware that the word "is" is inserted into the text. I get it. However, that's not the point I'm making.
My point is that you can't make the verse say "your throne is the God" because 1) a throne (even a metaphorical one) cannot be God, only God can be God, that's idolatry, and 2) we don't see anywhere else where a throne is called "the God" (correct me if I'm wrong, please), and 3) you'd be a hypocrite, because I could then accuse you of adding "is" between "throne" and "God" simply because that's the way you want it to read.
Words have meaning, Tigger. Let's consider the meaning of each of the proposed phrases for the Greek phrase, "the throne of you the God of age of the ages."
If it's as you say, "the throne of you is God of age of the ages," it calls the Son's throne God, thereby placing the throne not only above the Son, but equal with the Father.
If it's as I say, "your throne, the God, is of age of the ages," then it places the Son on equal footing with the Father, because the Father would be calling the Son "God," and His throne would be eternal.
See, you say "oh, the trinitarians translated the Bible in a way that fits their doctrine.
But consider that you're wrong, for a moment.
If you're WRONG, then you are not only blaspheming the Father by calling Him a liar because He called the Son "God," and instead should have called the Son's throne "God" but you're also blaspheming the Son by robbing Him of his rightful claim of Godhood.
If I'm the one that's wrong, then I'm calling the Son God when He shouldn't be called God, which is idolatry. Yet my position is consistent with the rest of Scripture, while yours is not, which is evidence towards my position being right, and yours being wrong.
You have also been clearly told that bracketed words are not actually in the NT text but added by the translator simply because that is how he WANTS IT TO READ!
Have you ever considered that it's not simply because that's the way the translator wants the verse to be read, but it's because that's what the verse is actually saying, and that the added words don't change the meaning?
Look, if I said in Greek, "goat of you Tigger old," it could easily and logically be translated "your goat, tigger, is old," and it wouldn't change the meaning of the sentence. What you're trying to do, however, is change it to "your goat is Tigger old." It doesn't work.
You don't seem to be able to read these clear statements.
Even some Trinitarian translators, as you have also been told, insert the verb 'is' after "the throne of you." Either you are a terrible reader or you willingly refuse to understand.
DUH! That's what I said in my previous post, you numbskull. Or were you not paying attention? Because if you weren't, then I would have reason to think that you weren't paying attention while reading the rest of my post. Please pay attention to what I'm saying, so that you can stop repeating yourself.
Still the passage concerned confirms the Messiah's confession of David, exalting 'God' alone and his 'throne' as the throne of righteousness, and since the Messiah is the representative of 'God', the Messiah's throne IS of course God's throne,.....the Messiah is 'God' only in the sense of being God's AGENT.
The OT is full of indications that various places or peoples may be called 'God' (elohim) as attestations/appellations describing God's character, but this does not make those places, objects or people into the actual 'God Almighty', since only the One Universal Infinite SPIRIT-Presence is the Universal Father of all, while all other divine beings, angels and sons of God, are just that....SONS of the Universal Father. Heb. 1:8 does NOT prove or even indicate that Jesus is 'true God', but only referring to Jesus as the Agent and Agency of God! - there is no need or necessity to make Jesus into God the Father, even if you put an orthodox Trinitarian SPIN on this.
ALSO,....it could be said that 'God' is the Messiah's throne, since a 'throne' is an emblem or symbol of a King's rule, glory and dominion. Truly 'God' is the power and authority of the Messiah, and can only be 'God' ALONE, - the Messiah, ONLY as He stands, serves and REPRESENTS 'God', is 'God'. Since 'God' operates THRU His Messiah-SON, the Son speaks for the Father. And we just go back to the circular issue of the Father and the Son being ONE,....no matter how that is interpreted. All that is essential here is that the Messiah-Son represents and speaks for God, that is all that is essential. Any other details or preferred 'Christologies' are just, personal opinions, beliefs or preferred relational constructs entertained.
Is God ever called “unlikely” things in a figurative sense that are as equally strange as calling him “a throne”? Every Bible student of any experience knows that He is, repeatedly!
Many times he is called someone’s “Rock” (e.g., Ps. 78:35).
He is called a “fortress” (e.g., Ps. 91:2).
He is called a “lamp” in 2 Samuel 22:29.
He is called a “crown” (“in that day will Jehovah of hosts become a crown of glory, unto the residue of his people” - Is. 28:5, ASV).
Jehovah is called “our dwelling place” - Ps. 90:1, KJV.
And “Jehovah is my ... song” - Ps. 118:14.
Also notice Ps. 60:7, 8 “Ephraim is my helmet, Judah my scepter, Moab is my washbasin”, NIV. And in Is. 22:23 we find Eliakim, whom Jehovah said he would call and commit authority to (Is. 22:20, 21), called a “throne” (“and he will become a throne of honor to his father’s house,” RSV).
A. Translations of Heb. 1:8 by trinitarians:
“God is your throne” - AT (Dr. Goodspeed)
“God is thy throne” - Mo (Dr. Moffatt)
“God is your throne” - Byington
“God is your throne” - Dr. Barclay
“God is thy throne” - Dr. Westcott
“God is thy throne” - A.T. Robertson (Alternate translation)
“God is thy throne” - Dr. Young (Alt.)
“God is thy throne” - RSV (Alt.)
“God is your throne” - NRSV (Alt.)
“God is thy throne” - NEB (Alt.)
“Thy throne is God” - ASV (Alt.)
"Your kingdom, O God, will last"; or "God is your kingdom." - GNT (f.n.)
B. Translations of Ps. 45:6 (quoted at Heb. 1:8) by trinitarians:
“Your Divine throne” - RSV
“Your throne is like God’s throne” - NEB
“God is your throne” - Byington
“The kingdom that God has given you” - GNB
“God has enthroned you” - REB
“Your throne is from God” - NJB
"Your throne, O god, stands forever;" - NAB ('91) - "the king, in courtly language, is called 'god,' i.e., more than human, representing God to the people." - note in NAB (2010).
"Your divine throne is eternal and everlasting. - CEB
"God is your throne for ever and for ever," - Barclay
“Your throne is a throne of God” - NRSV (Alt.)
“Thy throne is the throne of God” - ASV (Alt.)
"Possibly the king's throne is called God's throne because he is God's appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as 'god'." - Ps. 45:6 note in the New International Version Study Bible (NIVSB).
"Hear Israel, Y-H-W-H is our God, Y-H-W-H is ONE!" Deut 6:4
"Listen, Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is One" Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." English Standard Version
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one!" New American Standard Bible
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." New International Version
"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one!" New King James Version"
"And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, "Which commandment is the first of all?" Jesus answered, "The first is, `Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, THE LORD IS ONE; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' The second is this, `You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher; you have truly said that HE IS ONE, and there is no other but he; and to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices." And when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God."" Mark 12:28-34 Revised Standard Version
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
"Here is the most important one. Moses said, 'Israel, listen to me. The Lord is our God. The Lord is one." .... "You are right in saying that God is one." New International Readers Version
"Jesus answered: Listen, Israel! The Lord our God, The Lord is One." .... "You have correctly said that He is One," Holman Christian Standard Bible
"Jesus answered, The first is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one:" .... "thou hast well said that he is one;" American Standard Version
"Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the LORD our God, the LORD is one." New King James Version
"Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one" .... "You have truly said that he is one," English Standard Version
"Jesus said, "The first in importance is, 'Listen, Israel: The Lord your God is one;" .... "A wonderful answer, Teacher! So lucid and accurate—that God is one" The Message
"‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." .... “You are right in saying that God is one" New International Version
"Now an intermediary implies more than one; but GOD IS ONE." Gal 3:20 Revised Standard Version
"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but GOD IS ONE" King James Version
"A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but GOD IS ONE." New International Version
"Now an intermediary implies more than one, but GOD IS ONE." English Standard Version
"Now a mediator is not a mediator of one; but GOD IS ONE." American Standard Version
"and the mediator is not of one, and GOD IS ONE" Youngs Literal Translation
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." James 2:19 Revised Standard Version
"thou -- thou dost believe that GOD IS ONE; thou dost well," Youngs Literal translation
"Thou believest that GOD IS ONE; thou doest well:" American Standard Version
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Holman Christian Standard Bible.
"*Thou* believest that GOD IS ONE. Thou doest well." Darby Translation.
"It’s good that you believe that GOD IS ONE." Common English Bible
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." English Standard Version
"You believe that GOD IS ONE; you do well." Amplified Bible
"You believe that GOD IS ONE You do well;" New American Standard Bible
So the Bible teaches clearly that God is ONE.
"And J-e-h-o-v-a-h shall be King over all the earth: in that day shall J-e-h-o-v-a-h be one, and his name one." Zach 14:9 American Standard Version
"And the LORD shall be King over all the earth. In that day it shall be— “The LORD is one, And His name one." New King James Version
"And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one." English Standard Version
"And the Lord shall be King over all the earth; in that day the Lord shall be one [in the recognition and worship of men] and His name one." Amplified Bible
