Is Faith Without Works Dead?

[Derf]

Lon is on ignore, so I didn't see it.
You're on ignore too, but I looked anyway.

Such an honor!

 

[Clete]

I believe OSAS basically. I mean you'll say maybe what about 2nd Timothy 2:13? But look:

$$ 2Ti 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
$$ 2Ti 2:13
If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

obv "believe not" isn't the same as to "deny [Him]". It much more seems like an ongoing confidence in Him, and sometimes we might stumble, maybe for a long time, but He never stops believing in Himself (ofc).

Denying Him is a possibility, even after we do Romans 10:9.

You need a new version of the bible! That is a perfectly awful translation of that passage!

 

[Bladerunner]

Well, let's put it this way: If you are indwelled by God and not doing things God prompts you to do...but does it mean you aren't saved? No by necessity, remember Jesus' analogy of the unfruitful tree? Luke 16:6-9

Go back to the New Covenant. As humans, 'all of us' sin everyday yet when one is Justified, their past sins are removed completely. "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jer 31:34) This is the same covenant the gentiles have inherited and will receive when they are Justified, not before.

 

[Right Divider]

Go back to the New Covenant. As humans, 'all of us' sin everyday yet when one is Justified, their past sins are removed completely. "for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." (Jer 31:34) This is the same covenant the gentiles have inherited and will receive when they are Justified, not before.

Confusion reigns with you

 

[Lon]

In other words, if there's no fruit, the tree is cut down. Are you suggesting what "cut down" means? I'm not convinced it is an individual in view, but if it is, it would point to a loss of salvation.

The thrust of the verse isn't about 'cut down' but rather about God's desire, patience, and long suffering without seeing fruit. I'd reckon crab apples the next season would be at least something.

 

[Derf]

The thrust of the verse isn't about 'cut down' but rather about God's desire, patience, and long suffering without seeing fruit. I'd reckon crab apples the next season would be at least something.

Not on a fig tree.

 

[Idolater]

The thrust of the verse isn't about 'cut down' but rather about God's desire, patience, and long suffering without seeing fruit. I'd reckon crab apples the next season would be at least something.

They make great cider. Better than palatable apples actually, because palatable apples have too much natural sugar in them, crab apples make a nicer cider.

 

[Idolater]

Not on a fig tree.

How are we to determine what is and what is not good fruit? Is or isn't that supposed to be objective, or is it subjective? I think it's supposed to be objective, and plus fairly obv too. Like you say a fig, like @Lon says an apple. obv. No controversy.

So I guess this figure if we're going to use it, needs to involve non-partisan views in the evaluation of fruit. Are we all in agreement on that? Perhaps being perfectly clear in what we mean by fruit, can provide some resolution; meaning perhaps this isn't as controversial as it might appear.

Maybe we all agree on what is bad fruit. Maybe we also therefore, don't believe that bad fruit is in abundance in either party.

 

[Clete]

Here's a hint...

The fig tree is Israel.
The fruit is faith.

 

[Derf]

How are we to determine what is and what is not good fruit? Is or isn't that supposed to be objective, or is it subjective? I think it's supposed to be objective, and plus fairly obv too. Like you say a fig, like @Lon says an apple. obv. No controversy.

So I guess this figure if we're going to use it, needs to involve non-partisan views in the evaluation of fruit. Are we all in agreement on that? Perhaps being perfectly clear in what we mean by fruit, can provide some resolution; meaning perhaps this isn't as controversial as it might appear.

Maybe we all agree on what is bad fruit. Maybe we also therefore, don't believe that bad fruit is in abundance in either party.

Wild grapes on a domestic grape vine is bad fruit. Adultery is bad fruit. Covetousness is bad fruit. Jezebel luring people to commit idolatry is bad fruit.

Love, joy, peace, patience, goodness...self control is good fruit.

Of course, that all takes us back to the idea that a tree can refer to an individual, but an individual is a reflection of the group to which he belongs.

 

[Idolater]

Wild grapes on a domestic grape vine is bad fruit. Adultery is bad fruit. Covetousness is bad fruit. Jezebel luring people to commit idolatry is bad fruit.

Love, joy, peace, patience, goodness...self control is good fruit.

Of course, that all takes us back to the idea that a tree can refer to an individual, but an individual is a reflection of the group to which he belongs.

And @Clete said the fruit is faith, so I guess I was wrong about it not being partisan and controversial lol.

 

[Derf]

And @Clete said the fruit is faith, so I guess I was wrong about it not being partisan and controversial lol.

Faith is in the "..." on my post.

 

[Lon]

Not on a fig tree.

Are we comparing fruit? Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Long-suffering, and Self-control? Are they not all of the same 'tree?'

 

[Derf]

Are we comparing fruit? Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness, Long-suffering, and Self-control? Are they not all of the same 'tree?'

James 3:12 KJV — Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

 

[Clete]

And @Clete said the fruit is faith, so I guess I was wrong about it not being partisan and controversial lol.

There is no evidence to support that the fig tree represents anything else....

• Hosea 9:10 – "I found Israel Like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers As the firstfruits on the fig tree in its first season. But they went to Baal Peor, And separated themselves to that shame; They became an abomination like the thing they loved."
  • Here, God explicitly compares Israel to a fig tree in its early stages, showing that He originally found delight in them before their corruption.
• Jeremiah 24:1-10– The vision of two baskets of figs.
  • God shows Jeremiah a vision where good figs represent faithful Israelites (those taken into exile who would be restored), and bad figs represent the rebellious ones who would be destroyed. This further associates Israel with fig trees.
• Joel 1:6-7 – "For a nation has come up against My land, Strong, and without number; His teeth are the teeth of a lion, And he has the fangs of a fierce lion. He has laid waste My vine, And ruined My fig tree; He has stripped it bare and thrown it away; Its branches are made white."
  • The "fig tree" being laid waste represents Israel suffering judgment due to their rebellion.
• Matthew 21:18-20 & Mark 11:12-14, 20-21– Jesus cursing the barren fig tree.
  • Jesus finds a fig tree with leaves but no fruit, curses it, and it withers. This is widely understood as a symbolic act representing Israel’s spiritual barrenness—outwardly religious (having leaves) but lacking true faith (fruit).
• Luke 13:6-9– The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree.
  • A man (symbolizing God) plants a fig tree (Israel) in his vineyard and expects fruit, but it produces none. The vineyard keeper (perhaps representing Christ) pleads for more time before judgment. This parallels God’s patience with Israel before bringing judgment.
• Matthew 24:32-35 & Mark 13:28-31– The Parable of the Fig Tree.
  • Jesus uses the fig tree as a sign to indicate when His prophetic words would come to pass. Many interpret this as referring to Israel, particularly in relation to end-times prophecy.

The fruit thereof being faith (i.e. righteousness, repentence, etc.)

• Jesus Cursing the Barren Fig Tree (Matthew 21:18-19, Mark 11:12-14, 20-21)
  • The fig tree had leaves but no fruit, symbolizing Israel’s outward religious appearance without genuine faith.
  • This aligns with Jesus’ broader critique of the Pharisees and religious leaders for their hypocrisy (Matthew 23:27-28).
• The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree (Luke 13:6-9)
  • The tree is expected to bear fruit, but it does not. The owner (God) seeks faithfulness and repentance, but Israel remains unfruitful. The vineyard keeper (possibly representing Christ) pleads for more time—showing God’s patience before judgment.
• Fruit as a Biblical Symbol of Faith and Righteousness
  • In multiple passages, fruit symbolizes spiritual faithfulness:
    • "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance." (Luke 3:8)
    • "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples." (John 15:8)
    • "The just shall live by faith." (Habakkuk 2:4, Romans 1:17)

 

[Lon]

James 3:12 KJV — Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

This is a contrast between those with the Spirit and those without, He continues "this should not be!"

 

[Idolater]

There is no evidence to support that the fig tree represents anything else....

• Hosea 9:10 – "I found Israel Like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers As the firstfruits on the fig tree in its first season. But they went to Baal Peor, And separated themselves to that shame; They became an abomination like the thing they loved."
  • Here, God explicitly compares Israel to a fig tree in its early stages, showing that He originally found delight in them before their corruption.
• Jeremiah 24:1-10– The vision of two baskets of figs.
  • God shows Jeremiah a vision where good figs represent faithful Israelites (those taken into exile who would be restored), and bad figs represent the rebellious ones who would be destroyed. This further associates Israel with fig trees.
• Joel 1:6-7 – "For a nation has come up against My land, Strong, and without number; His teeth are the teeth of a lion, And he has the fangs of a fierce lion. He has laid waste My vine, And ruined My fig tree; He has stripped it bare and thrown it away; Its branches are made white."
  • The "fig tree" being laid waste represents Israel suffering judgment due to their rebellion.
• Matthew 21:18-20 & Mark 11:12-14, 20-21– Jesus cursing the barren fig tree.
  • Jesus finds a fig tree with leaves but no fruit, curses it, and it withers. This is widely understood as a symbolic act representing Israel’s spiritual barrenness—outwardly religious (having leaves) but lacking true faith (fruit).
• Luke 13:6-9– The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree.
  • A man (symbolizing God) plants a fig tree (Israel) in his vineyard and expects fruit, but it produces none. The vineyard keeper (perhaps representing Christ) pleads for more time before judgment. This parallels God’s patience with Israel before bringing judgment.
• Matthew 24:32-35 & Mark 13:28-31– The Parable of the Fig Tree.
  • Jesus uses the fig tree as a sign to indicate when His prophetic words would come to pass. Many interpret this as referring to Israel, particularly in relation to end-times prophecy.

The fruit thereof being faith (i.e. righteousness, repentence, etc.)

• Jesus Cursing the Barren Fig Tree (Matthew 21:18-19, Mark 11:12-14, 20-21)
  • The fig tree had leaves but no fruit, symbolizing Israel’s outward religious appearance without genuine faith.
  • This aligns with Jesus’ broader critique of the Pharisees and religious leaders for their hypocrisy (Matthew 23:27-28).
• The Parable of the Barren Fig Tree (Luke 13:6-9)
  • The tree is expected to bear fruit, but it does not. The owner (God) seeks faithfulness and repentance, but Israel remains unfruitful. The vineyard keeper (possibly representing Christ) pleads for more time—showing God’s patience before judgment.
• Fruit as a Biblical Symbol of Faith and Righteousness
  • In multiple passages, fruit symbolizes spiritual faithfulness:
    • "Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance." (Luke 3:8)
    • "By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples." (John 15:8)
    • "The just shall live by faith." (Habakkuk 2:4, Romans 1:17)

So are we talking about faithfulness then, or mere faith? If all we're meaning by faith as a fruit is mere faith, then we are all the same, because we all acknowledge and believe what I think we all believe to be mere Christianity, meaning basically the Trinity and Christ's Resurrection, right? So according to this interpretation we can't distinguish between the various theologies we each hold to. Isn't this right?

 

[Idolater]

Faith is in the "..." on my post.

Mere faith? or faithfulness (or 'allegiance' maybe)?