Is Faith Without Works Dead?

[Nick M]

All you have to do is make the argument OSAS and watch them hold firm to their position of works are required.

 

[Idolater]

All you have to do is make the argument OSAS and watch them hold firm to their position of works are required.

I believe OSAS basically. I mean you'll say maybe what about 2nd Timothy 2:13? But look:

$$ 2Ti 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
$$ 2Ti 2:13
If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

obv "believe not" isn't the same as to "deny [Him]". It much more seems like an ongoing confidence in Him, and sometimes we might stumble, maybe for a long time, but He never stops believing in Himself (ofc).

Denying Him is a possibility, even after we do Romans 10:9.

 

[Idolater]

Denying the words of Jesus? Very curious of a Catholic.

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’


37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’


41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’


44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

I don't deny any of His words. Those are all called corporal acts of mercy. And we should understand He and Paul do not conflict:

$$ 2Co 9:6
But this [I say], He which soweth sparingly shall reap also sparingly; and he which soweth bountifully shall reap also bountifully.
$$ 2Co 9:7
Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, [so let him give]; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
$$ 2Co 9:8
And God [is] able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all [things], may abound to every good work:
$$ 2Co 9:9
(As it is written, He hath dispersed abroad; he hath given to the poor: his righteousness remaineth for ever.
$$ 2Co 9:10
Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for [your] food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness; )
$$ 2Co 9:11
Being enriched in every thing to all bountifulness, which causeth through us thanksgiving to God.
$$ 2Co 9:12
For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
$$ 2Co 9:13
Whiles by the experiment of this ministration they glorify God for your professed subjection unto the gospel of Christ, and for [your] liberal distribution unto them, and unto all [men];

Paul just says do it all with cheer in your heart, "God loveth a cheerful giver," not a grudging giver, or one only giving because he has to. You're reading Christ's words wrong. He's literally saying you need to do good works ("acts of mercy" is what they're called in standard Roman Catholicism), and Paul ADDS, do them CHEERFULLY. He doesn't abolish Christ or contradict Christ.

"Is Christ divided?"

 

[Nick M]

I believe OSAS basically. I mean you'll say maybe what about 2nd Timothy 2:13? But look:

$$ 2Ti 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with [him]: if we deny [him], he also will deny us:
$$ 2Ti 2:13
If we believe not, [yet] he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

obv "believe not" isn't the same as to "deny [Him]". It much more seems like an ongoing confidence in Him, and sometimes we might stumble, maybe for a long time, but He never stops believing in Himself (ofc).

Denying Him is a possibility, even after we do Romans 10:9.

Let me put this in late modern English without the goofy format.

11 This is a faithful saying: For if we died with Him, We shall also live with Him. 12 If we endure, We shall also reign with Him.

If we deny Him, He also will deny us.

13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself.

These are 3 things. Denying him and not denying him. And those who believe and confess can and do have doubt. Many express it. If you lose faith, it does not matter. You are his and he cannot deny himself. Romans 6 states we are baptized into his death and resurrection, and not under the law any more, but under grace. You can't be un-crucified and un-raised up. George Carlin is an example of one that denied him. He now wished he had not. In fact, I think he knew all along and simply regrets the incredibly stupid position.

 

[Lon]

I don't agree with all you said...

A bit from the link I gave above in case you didn't have time:

If we read James 2:24 isolated from its context, we could have a real problem, because if James means the same thing that Paul means by “faith” in Romans 3:28 or Ephesians 2:8–9, then James would be flat-out contradicting the doctrine of justification by faith alone. One of the fundamental rules of biblical interpretation, however, is that every text must be interpreted in its context. To understand rightly what James means by “faith alone,” we must read it in its context.

In James 2:14, the apostle points to a faith that “does not have works.” He then asks, “Can that faith save him?” He further explains what he means by “that faith” in verse 19. It’s the kind of “faith” that the demons have. That is to say, it’s a mere intellectual assent.

The difference then isn't a contradiction, but a difference in what 'faith' meant between his particular audience and Paul's:
Romans 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith[:] apart from works of the law.

See all of Romans 3 for context

 

[Derf]

A bit from the link I gave above in case you didn't have time:



The difference then isn't a contradiction, but a difference in what 'faith' meant between his particular audience and Paul's:
Romans 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.
Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith[:] apart from works of the law.

See all of Romans 3 for context

I disagree. I think it's the same kind of faith, the kind that saves apart from works, but that kind of faith always produces works. Abraham was justified by faith, perhaps in the eyes of God, but it is apparent to us that he believed in that he acted on his faith. And perhaps it was apparent to God also in his works. Thus the faith is the same between Paul and James, but the justification is different, but not much.

 

[Nick M]

Thus the faith is the same between Paul and James, but the justification is different, but not much.

There is no hope for you. Paul could not be more clear. And the same is true of Peter. Only a liar or idiot would say they don't know what he means right here. From the big dispute in Jerusalem with Paul going against the good news of the Kingdom and the law of Moses which the circumcision must obey.

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

He didn't say it is the same thing. He said they shall be, future tense. They have to keep the law of Moses to inherit their earthly kingdom.

 

[Derf]

There is no hope for you. Paul could not be more clear. And the same is true of Peter. Only a liar or idiot would say they don't know what he means right here. From the big dispute in Jerusalem with Paul going against the good news of the Kingdom and the law of Moses which the circumcision must obey.

Why is it good news that they must obey the law of Moses, when Paul offers a good news where they do not? Who would be stupid enough to choose that deal, when no one can actually keep the law but the perfect Son of God?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.”

He didn't say it is the same thing. He said they shall be, future tense. They have to keep the law of Moses to inherit their earthly kingdom.

Just like Paul looked forward to a future salvation.
1 Thessalonians 5:8-9 KJV — But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ

The bold text speaks of a future salvation. You're not really saved until you've been resurrected at the coming of the Lord. But you can be assured of your participation in said resurrection based on your belief in the only source of salvation (from death) who is Jesus Christ.

So Peter's comment should be read not "...we shall be saved in the same manner as they are saved", but "...we shall be saved in the same manner as they will be saved".

 

[Lon]

I disagree. I think it's the same kind of faith, the kind that saves apart from works, but that kind of faith always produces works. Abraham was justified by faith, perhaps in the eyes of God, but it is apparent to us that he believed in that he acted on his faith. And perhaps it was apparent to God also in his works. Thus the faith is the same between Paul and James, but the justification is different, but not much.

Well, let's put it this way: If you are indwelled by God and not doing things God prompts you to do...but does it mean you aren't saved? No by necessity, remember Jesus' analogy of the unfruitful tree? Luke 16:6-9