Is Faith Without Works Dead?

[JudgeRightly]

But you're not reading the whole thing. James clearly points out that Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
[Jas 2:23 KJV] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

James is saying that the faith scripture (Abraham believed God and IT--Abraham's belief--was imputed unto him for righteousness) is fulfilled in Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac.

You should start at verse 14, instead of verse 23. It gives you the full context of what James is talking about:

What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only. Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Bible Gateway passage: James 2:14-26 - New King James Version

Faith Without Works Is Dead - What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them...

www.biblegateway.com

James is not talking about works after one is saved.

He's talking about works in addition to faith being required to save..

"Can faith save him [if he does not have works]?

James then gives an example of having faith, but not DOing, and raises the question: "what does it profit"?

NOTHING! It profits you nothing!

And that's true for both the dispensation of grace and for the dispensation of the Kingdom. But it's ESPECIALLY true for the Kingdom gospel, because works have value within it, while under grace, you "have reason to boast, but not before God!"

James says "show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. . . . faith without works is dead!" In other words, the answer to the question he asked in verse 14, is "faith without works is dead! It cannot save!"

James brings up demons, saying even they believe, pointing out that if you just believe, there's no difference between your faith and theirs!

The literal translation in verse 20 is "faith apart from works is worthless"! It has no value!

James then asks "was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered his son Isaac on the altar? Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?" Verse 23: And the scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was callled the friend of God. (24) You see then that a man iis justified by works, and not by faith only."

Notice that in verse 23, James is quoting from Genesis 15 (verse 6, specifically), talking about works, yet if you go and read the rest of Genesis 15, Abraham didn't actually do ANYTHING!

In fact, he COULDN'T do anything! He was asleep!

Genesis 15 is the chapter where God cut a covenant (literally where we get the phrase "to cut a deal") with Abram (which is something else to consider, that God had not yet renamed him to "Abraham" in Genesis 15) where He alone (and not with Abram) walked through the middle of the animals which Abram had cut in half.

It wasn't until Genesis 17 where God required something of Abraham, that being, circumcision, a work of the flesh if there ever was one! James alwo mentions Rahab, pointing out her sending the messengers out a different way to protect them, calling that "works."

He then ends the thought with "for as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."

The entire passage is about how works are required in order for one's faith to be valid.

Now let's contrast that with what Paul wrote:

But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law. What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,And whose sins are covered; Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.” Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised. For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression. Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.” Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 3:21-4:25 - New King James Version

God’s Righteousness Through Faith - But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall...

www.biblegateway.com

Paul says we are not justified by works, but by FAITH!

Paul also references Genesis 15, but instead of it being in the context of works, he says that Abraham was justified BEFORE he did any works! Remember the "work of the flesh" I mentioned above? "How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised." Abraham was circumcised while uncircumcised! He was already justified by his faith: "He believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness!"

James: Abraham was justified by works.
Paul: Abraham was justified by faith and not of works.

Paul clarifies: "For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work, but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works."

Of course I'm interpreting James in light of Paul!

The way in which you are doing it is incorrect, and thus causing confusion.

But that's only making him say something other than the plain reading if you discount Paul. Plain reading is not achieved by reading a single scripture in a vacuum, as you have consistently (and rightly) pointed out to me on other subjects.

Indeed.

Which means that if you ignore the context of Acts, you're going to mash scriptures together that were not intended to be mashed together.

I don't see how that scripture is related to what you wrote above. Peter was obviously living like the Gentiles (appropriately, according to Paul),

Appropriately?

So why did Paul "withstand him to his face"? Why did Paul place blame on him for living like a Gentile when the men from James were not around, but separated himself when they were? Such hypocrisy caused even Barnabas to be carried away!

and only changed his manner of living, and required others to do the same, when some men from James came around. How does showing that Peter was agreeing with Paul help your argument?

He was being a hypocrite!

Peter would live like a Gentile, but when the men from James came, he lived as though he was justified by works, and not by faith only! (cf Galatians 1:16)

Who said they did?

James did.

James: Faith without works is dead, and cannot save.
You: We are saved by and show our faith is living by doing works.

Do you not see the difference between those?

Yes. And James agrees with that.
[Jas 2:23 KJV] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Supra. Paul teaches that one is justified by FAITH, and not of works.

James teaches the exact opposite! He teaches that you must have works, or your faith is dead, and cannot save, that you are justified by works, and not by faith only.

Of course not. But for it to be real faith.

Was the thief on the cross justified by faith or by works?

If the latter, what works did he do that justified him?

Right. Nothing we do can add to Christ's work on the cross.

James is saying the opposite. "Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?" (2:22)

Paul says if you work, it's not grace, but debt! There's something to boast about, but not before God. The idea runs counter to our faith being "alone" rather than "accompanied by works."

But we can't show our faith in Christ without works. If you say you believe in your mind and heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, but you are continually afraid of God's judgment, such that you eat and drink for tomorrow you may die, then are you saved or not? The answer is "I don't know, and neither do you." Because your actions are inconsistent with your supposed faith.

False.

The answer is if you profess the name of the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. That's a guarantee! It's a guarantee that is not and CANNOT be affected by anything we do, else IT WOULDN'T BE GRACE!!!

It's nothing that WE DO that saves us!

James asks "can faith save someone if they do not have works?" and he asks with the answer being "NO!" in his mind, and says as much: "Faith without works is dead!"

It is, because you can't tell that a man is justified by faith unless his works also testify that he has faith. Can God tell? Maybe. But if God sees that you believe in your heart, but never put your faith into practice, does He even believe it? Perhaps not:
[Rom 10:9 KJV] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

If someone has done what Romans 10:9-10 said, his faith is accounted to him for righteousness. He is justified by faith, BEFORE works. He is saved by grace through faith (because Romans 10:9-10 is the expression of faith), NOT OF WORKS, lest he boast.

If he worked, then he has something to boast about, but not before God!

That runs counter to what James said: "What does it profit . . . if someone says he has faith but does not have works?"! NOTHING! There's no salvation!

According to James, if all you have is faith, your faith is dead, it cannot save.

According to Paul, your faith, not any works, is what justifies you!

 

[Clete]

But you're not reading the whole thing. James clearly points out that Abraham believed God and it was reckoned to him as righteousness.
[Jas 2:23 KJV] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

This objections seems backwards to me! It is I who am reading the whole thing! How can you not read the whole thing, understand that James is specifically talking about how faith alone cannot save you and then come here and say that it's all about faith?

James is saying that the faith scripture (Abraham believed God and IT--Abraham's belief--was imputed unto him for righteousness) is fulfilled in Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac.

Which is true! How is it that you didn't just make my argument for me?

Of course I'm interpreting James in light of Paul!

Which is your error! Paul was NOT preaching the same gospel as James. If he were....

1. There would have been no need for God to send him, by revelation, to Jerusalem to explain "his gospel" to the leaders there.
2. There would have been no need for Paul's ministry to exist at all because Jesus already has twelve apostles, all of whom had been given the great commission and been indwelt by the Holy Spirit for the purpose of proclaiming all that Jesus had taught them.

But that's only making him say something other than the plain reading if you discount Paul. Plain reading is not achieved by reading a single scripture in a vacuum, as you have consistently (and rightly) pointed out to me on other subjects.

No one is reading it in a vacuum, Derf! Just the exact opposite!

It is Paul who records Galatians 2:6-9, is it not?

It is also Paul who uses Abraham to make the exact opposite point the James is making, also by citing Abraham! It is precisely the context that allows it to make any sense whatsoever! The bible is one large book but it is also 66 separate books by many different authors who wrote to different audiences for different reasons. You cannot just ignore that and think you're ever going to understand the bible. Indeed, ignoring that is precisely the cause of all the confusion and infighting that exists within Christianity.

I don't see how that scripture is related to what you wrote above. Peter was obviously living like the Gentiles (appropriately, according to Paul), and only changed his manner of living, and required others to do the same, when some men from James came around. How does showing that Peter was agreeing with Paul help your argument?

We are surely encountering a paradigm level obstacle here. I suspect you won't be able to see it until you have one of those "light bulb moments" where it suddenly becomes clear. If that ever happens, you'll wonder how you ever didn't see it but until then, I have to remember to keep my patience hat firmly in place here.

Note the first several words of verse twelve....

"for before certain men came from James...."

We are talking about the gospel according to James (and Peter, John, etc.) vs. the gospel according to Paul and this episode between Peter and Paul is recorded immediately after Paul records the agreement that these men had made with him in Jerusalem....

Galatians 2:2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles....​

​

6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Peter, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.​

That has got to be in the top five most important passages in the whole bible when it comes to understanding the New Testament! Do you think that Paul choosing to recording his confrontation with Peter in the very next sentence is just an unrelated coincidence?

Who said they did?

James did! Isn't that your entire point?

There are scriptures that suggest otherwise:
[1Sa 15:22 KJV] And Samuel said, Hath the LORD [as great] delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice, [and] to hearken than the fat of rams.

[Isa 1:14 KJV] Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them].

You keep switching the subject and seemingly contradicting your own position!

The passages you cite are teaching that works that are not mixed with faith were worthless, not that faith without works saved you. James did not say that works without faith are worthless. He could have said that but that would have failed to address the issue he was writing to address. James' point is consistent with the passages you cite; that God requires both, which was completely the case during the dispensation of circumcision (law).

Yes. And James agrees with that.
[Jas 2:23 KJV] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

This makes no sense, Derf. Your entire point here is that faith without works is dead and that is precisely what James spends the entire chapter 2 of his letter establishing.

Being justified by faith apart from works and being justified by works, and not by faith only are mutually exclusive. They are opposites. It cannot be both, Derf!

There was something massively important that changed when God cut off Israel and turned to the Gentiles. Paul's gospel is not the same as James', which is why his (Paul's) ministry exists in the first place, why Peter got all twisted up and had to be confronted and why God sent Paul to explain his gospel to James, Peter and John.

Of course not. But for it to be real faith.

What? Again you are arguing against your own position here!

False faith can't save you, right? That has ALWAYS been true, no matter what dispensation was active!

Paul explicitly teaches that it is he who DOES NOT WORK but believes whom God imputes righteousness (Romans 4:5-6), while James teaches that faith without works is dead. They are not the same thing! Law and grace are not synonyms.

Right. Nothing we do can add to Christ's work on the cross. But we can't show our faith in Christ without works.

Paul disagrees...

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:​

​

If you say you believe in your mind and heart that God raised Jesus from the dead, but you are continually afraid of God's judgment, such that you eat and drink for tomorrow you may die, then are you saved or not?

YES!

Romans 10:9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”​

Indeed, it is in the mind that the entire battle is fought!

Romans 6:11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

The answer is "I don't know, and neither do you." Because your actions are inconsistent with your supposed faith.

I absolutely do know!

That is, given the parameters of the question, which were, "If you say you believe in your mind and heart that God raised Jesus from the dead", then I can and do know with absolute certainty!

The only variable is faith and your question presupposes that faith is present and so the answer is easy and obvious!

Well, I think that passage is specifically targeted toward someone who is building the church of God, and not just at every believer, since Paul compares the people who are building with himself, who was planting churches, and with Apollos, who was going after him to continue to help the churches Paul had built.

The principle applies regardless, Derf!

Besides, Paul's own words debunk the idea that it applies only to church planters. Otherwise, you'd be saying that those who plant churches and do other related work are somehow excepted from having to have good works and will be saved even if all their works are "burned up". That makes no sense, right?!

It is, because you can't tell that a man is justified by faith unless his works also testify that he has faith.

I entirely can do precisely that!

Indeed, his works are no longer the test! They cannot be and Paul remain an apostle or even a Christian!

Romand 4:1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.​

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:​

Romans 7:15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.​

21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. 22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. 23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!​

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.​

Can God tell? Maybe.

Maybe?

But if God sees that you believe in your heart, but never put your faith into practice, does He even believe it? Perhaps not:
[Rom 10:9 KJV] That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

You are a really confusing man to talk to, Derf! There is no way that you believe what you just wrote here. There is no "belief" about it in the mind of God. God knows - absolutely - what is in the hearts of men - period.

 

[Lon]

Good works aren't prohibited under grace, Derf. Doing good is... perfectly desirable

Edited here for emphasis. This is so important!

It just isn't a prerequisite of getting saved.

For me: It isn't perfectly possible until we are saved: New natured persons do new natured works that we want to do in following our Savior.

No one is suggesting that you shouldn't do rightly! No one is suggesting that we should avoid doing good in any way!

Amen!

No one has suggested that Paul preached against doing good works. What he did preach, however, is that they are not part of what gets you saved...

Find one single post where I or anyone here who agrees with me have said anything contrary to the notion that we aught to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts. ... point that is not in dispute.

... if your desire is to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts then step number one, during this dispensation[:] ...understand that you... already forgiven, pure, perfect and holy IN HIM and cannot be otherwise; that your salvation isn't about what you do and don't do, it's about putting your faith in what Jesus did for you, which includes not just dying to pay the penalty for sin but also resurrecting from the dead which provides both the motivation and power to live a transformed life. For the Jew, righteousness was a prerequisite of salvation, for the Body of Christ it is the result of salvation, although, unfortunately, not always in proper measure and never so long as the believer is trying to either earn his salvation or otherwise repay God for it.

My bolded emphasis

You cannot live the Christian life, Jesus can... The Christian walk is not about working but about resting in the finished work that Christ has done, reckoning yourself to be dead unto sin and alive unto God and letting Christ live His life through you - BY FAITH - not effort.

If you all would allow, a small augmentation: "Salvation" is not about working. The "Christian walk" does have 'be transformed by the renewing of your minds" and I'd say that 'our walk' does include works by desire, initiative, and effort. In a sense I agree without this caveate with Clete: He works in us to do His good will and is ever making and molding us. We are maturing in the faith and pressing on toward the high calling like good athletes, not 'for' salvation but because of all that He has done and is doing for and in us because we are saved.

 

[Derf]

Edited here for emphasis. This is so important!

For me: It isn't perfectly possible until we are saved: New natured persons do new natured works that we want to do in following our Savior.

Amen!



My bolded emphasis

If you all would allow, a small augmentation: "Salvation" is not about working. The "Christian walk" does have 'be transformed by the renewing of your minds" and I'd say that 'our walk' does include works by desire, initiative, and effort. In a sense I agree without this caveate with Clete: He works in us to do His good will and is ever making and molding us. We are maturing in the faith and pressing on toward the high calling like good athletes, not 'for' salvation but because of all that He has done and is doing for and in us because we are saved.

I agree with all of that, Lon. Which means, I think, that it has to apply to everyone. Which means that James, if he is saying that works are required for achieving salvation, is damning Jewish souls to hell by his letter...IF YOU READ IT LIKE @Clete AND @JudgeRightly ARE SAYING. But if you read it as a treatise on how to live a Christian life, the power to do those things exists in every believer, including Jewish ones, and the works James speaks of are examples of how to love one's neighbor, as both James and Paul consistently encouraged believers to do.

 

[Nick M]

17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

There is Paul contradicting the earthly ministry of Jesus to Israel again.

 

[Nick M]

6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Read these words carefully. Paul says to study. Why even bring up the point that gentiles are justified by faith? Why not just say they are justified like the Jews? That isn't rhetorical. Study the scripture. It means what it says. It requires you to disavow your pride and say I was wrong, and so is a whole of other people that I listened to.

 

[Lon]

I agree with all of that, Lon. Which means, I think, that it has to apply to everyone. Which means that James, if he is saying that works are required for achieving salvation, is damning Jewish souls to hell by his letter...IF YOU READ IT LIKE @Clete AND @JudgeRightly ARE SAYING. But if you read it as a treatise on how to live a Christian life, the power to do those things exists in every believer, including Jewish ones, and the works James speaks of are examples of how to love one's neighbor, as both James and Paul consistently encouraged believers to do.

--I believe JR did a good job with this already, and I had intended to write something along the same line but shorter when I came across this link.
It does a nice a job.

 

[Nick M]

Which means that James, if he is saying that works are required for achieving salvation, is damning Jewish souls to hell by his letter..

The Lord Jesus Christ said so. I just posted his words in this thread. Right here. The Lord Jesus Christ said if you do do this, he will say depart from me and be sent into hell, prepared from the devil and his angels.

34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’


37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’


41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’


44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

[Derf]

6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

Read these words carefully. Paul says to study. Why even bring up the point that gentiles are justified by faith? Why not just say they are justified like the Jews?

Isn't that what he said?
And the Scripture, ...preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”

Jews (Israel) are a nation, aren't they?
Genesis 25:23 KJV — And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

What was the younger nation's name? Jacob - Israel.

That isn't rhetorical. Study the scripture. It means what it says. It requires you to disavow your pride and say I was wrong, and so is a whole of other people that I listened to.

So, if scripture means what it says, and Israel is a nation, and "all" nations are blessed in Abraham, then all nations must be justified in exactly the same way, according to you.

 

[Derf]

The Lord Jesus Christ said so. I just posted his words in this thread. Right here. The Lord Jesus Christ said if you do do this, he will say depart from me and be sent into hell, prepared from the devil and his angels.

And? Why is that a problem?

 

[Clete]

I agree with all of that, Lon. Which means, I think, that it has to apply to everyone. Which means that James, if he is saying that works are required for achieving salvation, is damning Jewish souls to hell by his letter...IF YOU READ IT LIKE @Clete AND @JudgeRightly ARE SAYING.

Show me your line of thought here because it makes no sense to me whatsoever. There seems to me to be no path that leads from any premise I support that ends at such a conclusion.

But if you read it as a treatise on how to live a Christian life, the power to do those things exists in every believer, including Jewish ones, and the works James speaks of are examples of how to love one's neighbor, as both James and Paul consistently encouraged believers to do.

James himself says that he is talking about salvation! He IS talking about justification, NOT sanctification!

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? ​

​

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.​

​

How can it possibly be any clearer than that?

 

[Derf]

Show me your line of thought here because it makes no sense to me whatsoever. There seems to me to be no path that leads from any premise I support that ends at such a conclusion.

You are proposing, if I understand you correctly, that James is telling his audience how to be saved. If that is the case, then they are not saved already. If they are not saved already, and he is telling them how to be saved using a different gospel than Paul's, they won't be saved, since that is the only gospel at the time of his writing, even in your view of scripture.

James himself says that he is talking about salvation! He IS talking about justification, NOT sanctification!

Yes, if you are correct, James is telling people how to be saved.

James 2:14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? ​

​

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.​

​

How can it possibly be any clearer than that?

It's pretty clear, unless the clarity leads to hell. In other words, if it is a gospel that is anathema (accursed), it won't be effective for salvation, despite it being, supposedly, a gospel meant for salvation. You admit he's talking about salvation, but Paul says works CANNOT save anyone. Jews are people, just like Gentiles. And if a gospel of works cannot save anyone, according to Paul, it cannot save Jews. Therefore, a different understanding is needed for the book of James to be anything other than a highway to hell.

I've offered another way to read it, backed up by numerous bible translators, where the article prior to "faith" is not ignored, but included in the translation: "Can THAT faith save him?" (I.e., can the kind of faith that produces no works save anyone?) Which is the clearest way to read the text that comports with both Paul's gospel and James' target audience of believing Christians who were Jews.

 

[Nick M]

Which means that James, if he is saying that works are required for achieving salvation, is damning Jewish souls to hell by his letter..

And? Why is that a problem?

So which is it? You exposed yourself.

 

[Bladerunner]

Edited here for emphasis. This is so important!

For me: It isn't perfectly possible until we are saved: New natured persons do new natured works that we want to do in following our Savior.

Amen!



My bolded emphasis

If you all would allow, a small augmentation: "Salvation" is not about working. The "Christian walk" does have 'be transformed by the renewing of your minds" and I'd say that 'our walk' does include works by desire, initiative, and effort. In a sense I agree without this caveate with Clete: He works in us to do His good will and is ever making and molding us. We are maturing in the faith and pressing on toward the high calling like good athletes, not 'for' salvation but because of all that He has done and is doing for and in us because we are saved.

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20

 

[Nick M]

"I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." Gal 2:20

The body is dead because of sin, but our spirit is alive. This flesh will go to the grave.

 

[Derf]

So which is it? You exposed yourself.

Did you read my whole post? Those two statements refer to the two different ways if interpreting what James wrote. Please go back and reread.

 

[JudgeRightly]

. . . James is telling his audience how to be saved. . . . they are not saved already.

OR, the people James is writing to MUST endure to the end....

You know, just like what Jesus taught, speaking of the coming tribulation of Israel:

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 24:9-14 - New King James Version

“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound...

www.biblegateway.com

If they are not saved already, and he is telling them how to be saved using a different gospel than Paul's, they won't be saved, since that is the only gospel at the time of his writing, even in your view of scripture.

By the time James wrote his letter, it was clear that Jesus' return had been delayed, and that the tribulation had been put on hold.

James wrote to the diaspora, the twelve tribes scattered abroad.

He wrote to a future generation, the one that would go through that tribulation.

They must endure (keeping the law) in order to be saved!

You admit he's talking about salvation, but Paul says works CANNOT save anyone. Jews are people, just like Gentiles. And if a gospel of works cannot save anyone, according to Paul, it cannot save Jews. Therefore, a different understanding is needed for the book of James to be anything other than a highway to hell.

Or, you're misapplying what Paul said to things that they do not apply to.

Works cannot save.... UNDER PAUL'S DISPENSATION OF GRACE.

But on the other hand...

Works are REQUIRED under the Kingdom gospel.

Things that are different are not the same.

James is not teaching the dispensation of grace. He is teaching the Kingdom gospel.

 

[Clete]

You are proposing, if I understand you correctly, that James is telling his audience how to be saved. If that is the case, then they are not saved already.

James is indeed talking about justification but he isn't implying that the readers themselves are necessarily unsaved but he is talking in general terms. He is talking about how they got saved and how they would remain saved. One could lose their salvation in the previous dispensation, by the way.

If they are not saved already, and he is telling them how to be saved using a different gospel than Paul's, they won't be saved, since that is the only gospel at the time of his writing, even in your view of scripture.

This is a bit of a detour off the topic and so I don't want to get too far into the weeds with this but I, for one, am not as dogmatic on this specific point as are some. I'm not as convinced as some that salvation via the previous gospel was instantly turned off, as if God flipped a switch and suddenly one was saved through Paul's gospel and only Paul's gospel. The Twelve would not have instantly ceased being evangelical and they clearly did not understand nor preach Paul's gospel. That, and it just seems to make intuitive sense that God would have still allowed a member of Israel to repent and become a follower of Jesus for some period of time until it was clear to everyone that Israel's covenant had been put into abeyance.

Yes, if you are correct, James is telling people how to be saved.

It isn't a matter of opinion, Derf. James himself said it, not me.

It's pretty clear, unless the clarity leads to hell. In other words, if it is a gospel that is anathema (accursed), it won't be effective for salvation, despite it being, supposedly, a gospel meant for salvation.

Well, since it isn't anathema or accursed then there's no problem.

Why on Earth would you think it were, or think that I would think it were? That literally makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You admit he's talking about salvation, but Paul says works CANNOT save anyone.

James and Paul are not preaching to the same group of people, Derf! It's a different gospel because it's a different group. Your logic would only hold if James had written his letter to some of Paul's converts, in which case it would indeed fall under the category of a "different gospel" and therefore be "anathema". (Gal. 1:8)

How can that not have been made clear to you?

Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​

Again, that is easily one of, if not the, most important passages in the entire Bible! It is certainly the most important three verses that Paul ever wrote! Without that passage, Paul is a heretic! And that's precisely because he teaches the OPPOSITE of Jesus, Peter, James and John on so many different things.

Ignoring or just being completely ignorant of this passage is one major reason why there are so many disagreements about various theological issues.

Can you lose your salvation:

Yes...

• Hebrews 6:4-6 – Speaks of those who were once enlightened but fell away, making it "impossible to renew them again to repentance."
• Hebrews 10:26-29 – Warns that if we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.
• Matthew 24:13 – "But he who endures to the end shall be saved," implying perseverance is necessary.
• 2 Peter 2:20-22 – Describes those who escape corruption through Christ but become entangled again, likening them to a dog returning to its vomit.
• John 15:1-6 – Jesus' analogy of the vine and branches, stating that branches that do not remain in Him are cast out and burned.
• Revelation 3:5 – Speaks of names being blotted out of the Book of Life if they do not overcome.
• Ezekiel 18:24 – Although from the Old Testament, it states that if a righteous man turns from righteousness and sins, his past righteousness will not be remembered.
• Any Pauline passages used to make the affirmative case must be ripped away from their context and/or forced to mean the opposite of what the plain reading would indicate.

No...

• Romans 8:38-39 – Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
• Ephesians 1:13-14 – Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of their inheritance.
• Philippians 1:6 – God, who began a good work, will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.
• Romans 11:29 – "The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
• 2 Timothy 2:13 – "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself."
• Any Non-Pauline passages used to make the negative case must be ripped away from their context and/or forced to mean the opposite of what the plain reading would indicate.

Are works required for salvation:

Yes:

• James 2:24 – "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."
• James 2:26 – "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
• Matthew 7:21-23 – "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
• Matthew 25:31-46 – The parable of the sheep and the goats, where those who did good works inherit the kingdom and those who did not are condemned.
• John 5:28-29 – "Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."
• Revelation 22:14 – "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life."
• Hebrews 5:9 – "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him."
• Ezekiel 18:24 – "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity... all the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered."
• Psalm 62:12 – "For You render to each one according to his work."
• Isaiah 1:19-20 – "If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword."
• Deuteronomy 30:15-16 – "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil... in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments."
• Ezekiel 33:13 – "When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered."
• Micah 6:8 – "He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?"
• Psalm 15:1-2 – "LORD, who may abide in Your tabernacle? ... He who walks uprightly, and works righteousness, and speaks the truth in his heart."
• Isaiah 33:14-16 – "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? ... He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly."
• Pauline passages used to argue in the affirmative are almost always talking about sanctification or rewards given in Heaven rather than salvation. Otherwise they are ripped away from their context and/or forced to mean the opposite of what the plain reading would indicate.

No:

• Ephesians 2:8-9 – "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
• Romans 4:5 – "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness."
• Titus 3:5 – "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us."
• Romans 3:28 – "A man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."
• Galatians 2:16 – "A man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ."
• Acts 16:30-31 – The jailer asks, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul answers, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."
• Romans 11:6 – "If by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace."
• 2 Timothy 1:9 – "Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace."
• Any Non-Pauline passages used to make the negative case must be ripped away from their context and/or forced to mean the opposite of what the plain reading would indicate.

In short there are three options....
1. One can read Paul's letters and take them at face value and interpret what the rest of the New Testament says through "Pauline tinted" glasses. - Southern Baptists do this (generally speaking).
2. One can read the Gospels and the letters written by Peter, James and John and take them at face value and interpret what Paul's letters say though "Jesus tinted" glasses. - Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Church of Christ, Seventh-day Adventist Church and some others do this.
3. One can understand that Paul's gospel is different and that he wrote to a different audience than the other New Testament authors and thus read the whole New Testament and take virtually all of it at face value without the need to force it to be saying the same things to the same audience.

Of course, option three is what I do and am trying to convince others to do also.

It allows me to easily and intuitively know the answers to such questions as "Can one lose their salvation?" and "Are works required for salvation?" (along with a whole list of other controversial topics) and to see precisely how and why someone who disagrees is confused. It also explains the very existence of Paul's ministry which would otherwise be inexplicably unnecessary and, in a less direct manner, explains why the Twelve ordered their followers to sell everything they owned and to live in a commune (a passage that has been used to prop up communist or socialist ideology since as early as Ambrose of Milan in the 4th century).

Jews are people, just like Gentiles. And if a gospel of works cannot save anyone, according to Paul, it cannot save Jews.

It could before things changed!

It should be pointed out, (as I have done already), that the dispensation of law was under-girded by grace. No one could follow the law perfectly but if one made a good faith attempt to love God and do rightly, the imperfections were over-looked because God knew Christ would die as the propitiatory sacrifice (See Hebrews - the whole book). And so, even during the previous dispensation, people were ultimately saved by grace but access to that grace was not granted to those who did not continue in good works.

Therefore, a different understanding is needed for the book of James to be anything other than a highway to hell.

Your premises are false, as demonstrated above. Therefore, this conclusion is false.

I've offered another way to read it, backed up by numerous bible translators, where the article prior to "faith" is not ignored, but included in the translation: "Can THAT faith save him?" (I.e., can the kind of faith that produces no works save anyone?)

I don't follow. One does not have to read it "that way". That IS what James is teaching. That's what he states explicitly. Indeed, he is saying more even than just that. He states that it is the works themselves that contribute to the salvation process. That it is BOTH works and faith that save....

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Which is the clearest way to read the text that comports with both Paul's gospel and James' target audience of believing Christians who were Jews.

There is no need to make it comport with Paul's gospel. Indeed, there is no such thing as "Paul's gospel" if the two are the same. If they're the same then it's just "the gospel", right? And if that's the case then why would the risen Christ Jesus need to reveal the gospel to Paul by direct divine revelation and why would Paul be directed, again by direct divine revelation, to go to Jerusalem for the purpose of explaining "his gospel" to the Twelve? Why would Paul's ministry exist at all? Where would there have been any need for a thirteenth Apostle? Where the Twelve not given the Great Commission? Where the Twelve not indwelt by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2? Where is there any need at all for Paul if his gospel was the same at that of James, Peter and John?

 

[Derf]

James is indeed talking about justification but he isn't implying that the readers themselves are necessarily unsaved but he is talking in general terms. He is talking about how they got saved and how they would remain saved. One could lose their salvation in the previous dispensation, by the way.


This is a bit of a detour off the topic and so I don't want to get too far into the weeds with this but I, for one, am not as dogmatic on this specific point as are some. I'm not as convinced as some that salvation via the previous gospel was instantly turned off, as if God flipped a switch and suddenly one was saved through Paul's gospel and only Paul's gospel. The Twelve would not have instantly ceased being evangelical and they clearly did not understand nor preach Paul's gospel. That, and it just seems to make intuitive sense that God would have still allowed a member of Israel to repent and become a follower of Jesus for some period of time until it was clear to everyone that Israel's covenant had been put into abeyance.


It isn't a matter of opinion, Derf. James himself said it, not me.


Well, since it isn't anathema or accursed then there's no problem.

Why on Earth would you think it were, or think that I would think it were? That literally makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


James and Paul are not preaching to the same group of people, Derf! It's a different gospel because it's a different group. Your logic would only hold if James had written his letter to some of Paul's converts, in which case it would indeed fall under the category of a "different gospel" and therefore be "anathema". (Gal. 1:8)

How can that not have been made clear to you?

Galatians 2:7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.​

Again, that is easily one of, if not the, most important passages in the entire Bible! It is certainly the most important three verses that Paul ever wrote! Without that passage, Paul is a heretic! And that's precisely because he teaches the OPPOSITE of Jesus, Peter, James and John on so many different things.

Ignoring or just being completely ignorant of this passage is one major reason why there are so many disagreements about various theological issues.

Can you lose your salvation:

Yes...

• Hebrews 6:4-6 – Speaks of those who were once enlightened but fell away, making it "impossible to renew them again to repentance."
• Hebrews 10:26-29 – Warns that if we sin willfully after receiving knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.
• Matthew 24:13 – "But he who endures to the end shall be saved," implying perseverance is necessary.
• 2 Peter 2:20-22 – Describes those who escape corruption through Christ but become entangled again, likening them to a dog returning to its vomit.
• John 15:1-6 – Jesus' analogy of the vine and branches, stating that branches that do not remain in Him are cast out and burned.
• Revelation 3:5 – Speaks of names being blotted out of the Book of Life if they do not overcome.
• Ezekiel 18:24 – Although from the Old Testament, it states that if a righteous man turns from righteousness and sins, his past righteousness will not be remembered.
• Any Pauline passages used to make the affirmative case must be ripped away from their context and/or forced to mean the opposite of what the plain reading would indicate.

No...

• Romans 8:38-39 – Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus.
• Ephesians 1:13-14 – Believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit, the guarantee of their inheritance.
• Philippians 1:6 – God, who began a good work, will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus.
• Romans 11:29 – "The gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable."
• 2 Timothy 2:13 – "If we are faithless, He remains faithful; He cannot deny Himself."
• Any Non-Pauline passages used to make the negative case must be ripped away from their context and/or forced to mean the opposite of what the plain reading would indicate.

Are works required for salvation:

Yes:

• James 2:24 – "You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only."
• James 2:26 – "For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also."
• Matthew 7:21-23 – "Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."
• Matthew 25:31-46 – The parable of the sheep and the goats, where those who did good works inherit the kingdom and those who did not are condemned.
• John 5:28-29 – "Those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of condemnation."
• Revelation 22:14 – "Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life."
• Hebrews 5:9 – "And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him."
• Ezekiel 18:24 – "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits iniquity... all the righteousness which he has done shall not be remembered."
• Psalm 62:12 – "For You render to each one according to his work."
• Isaiah 1:19-20 – "If you are willing and obedient, you shall eat the good of the land; but if you refuse and rebel, you shall be devoured by the sword."
• Deuteronomy 30:15-16 – "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil... in that I command you today to love the LORD your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments."
• Ezekiel 33:13 – "When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered."
• Micah 6:8 – "He has shown you, O man, what is good; and what does the LORD require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?"
• Psalm 15:1-2 – "LORD, who may abide in Your tabernacle? ... He who walks uprightly, and works righteousness, and speaks the truth in his heart."
• Isaiah 33:14-16 – "Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? ... He who walks righteously and speaks uprightly."
• Pauline passages used to argue in the affirmative are almost always talking about sanctification or rewards given in Heaven rather than salvation. Otherwise they are ripped away from their context and/or forced to mean the opposite of what the plain reading would indicate.

No:

• Ephesians 2:8-9 – "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast."
• Romans 4:5 – "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness."
• Titus 3:5 – "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us."
• Romans 3:28 – "A man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law."
• Galatians 2:16 – "A man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ."
• Acts 16:30-31 – The jailer asks, "What must I do to be saved?" Paul answers, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved."
• Romans 11:6 – "If by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace."
• 2 Timothy 1:9 – "Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace."
• Any Non-Pauline passages used to make the negative case must be ripped away from their context and/or forced to mean the opposite of what the plain reading would indicate.

In short there are three options....
1. One can read Paul's letters and take them at face value and interpret what the rest of the New Testament says through "Pauline tinted" glasses. - Southern Baptists do this (generally speaking).
2. One can read the Gospels and the letters written by Peter, James and John and take them at face value and interpret what Paul's letters say though "Jesus tinted" glasses. - Roman Catholic Church, Eastern Orthodox Church, Church of Christ, Seventh-day Adventist Church and some others do this.
3. One can understand that Paul's gospel is different and that he wrote to a different audience than the other New Testament authors and thus read the whole New Testament and take virtually all of it at face value without the need to force it to be saying the same things to the same audience.

Of course, option three is what I do and trying to convince others to do also.

It allows me to easily and intuitively know the answers to such questions as "Can one lose their salvation?" and "Are works required for salvation?" (along with a whole list of other controversial topics) and to see precisely how and why someone who disagrees is confused. It also explains the very existence of Paul's ministry which would otherwise be inexplicably unnecessary and, in a less direct manner, explains why the Twelve ordered their followers to sell everything they owned and to live in a commune (a passage that has been used to prop up communist or socialist ideology since as early as Ambrose of Milan in the 4th century).


It could before things changed!

It should be pointed out, (as I have done already), that the dispensation of law was under-girded by grace. No one could follow the law perfectly but if one made a good faith attempt to love God and do rightly, the imperfections were over-looked because God knew Christ would die as the propitiatory sacrifice (See Hebrews - the whole book). And so, even during the previous dispensation, people were ultimately saved by grace but access to that grace was not granted to those who did not continue in good works.


Your premises are false, as demonstrated above. Therefore, this premise is false.


I don't follow. One does not have to read it "that way". That IS what James is teaching. That's what he states explicitly. Indeed, he is saying more even than just that. He states that it is the works themselves that contribute to the salvation process. That it is BOTH works and faith that save....

James 2:24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


There is no need to make it comport with Paul's gospel. Indeed, there is no such thing as "Paul's gospel" if the two are the same. If they're the same then it's just "the gospel", right? And if that's the case then why would the risen Christ Jesus need to reveal the gospel to Paul by direct divine revelation and why would Paul be directed, again by direct divine revelation, to go to Jerusalem for the purpose of explaining "his gospel" to the Twelve? Why would Paul's ministry exist at all? Where would there have been any need for a thirteenth Apostle? Where the Twelve not given the Great Commission? Where the Twelve not indwelt by the Holy Spirit in Acts 2? Where is there any need at all for Paul if his gospel was the same at that of James, Peter and John?

I love it when you do such a good post. I don't agree with all you said, but yours is a post-of-the-day imo.

 

[Nick M]

Did you read my whole post?

Yep and you being double minded made a contradiction without noticing.