Is death just another life?

[Hoping]

Which we've already gone over, showing that you use some odd meaning for "physical", when you really mean something else.

I mean physical.
To be a new creature, the first creature must be killed.
2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

 

[Derf]

I mean physical.
To be a new creature, the first creature must be killed.
2 Cor 5:17..."Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

You say you mean physical, but your "old man", or flesh, is still alive, physically. You do NOT have a changed or new physical body yet. Therefore your words are inconsistent with your words. The only way to do that is for you to mean something different by your words in one case compared to another. And because nobody but you seems to use those words in that way, you can't communicate effectively with other, normal, English-speaking people. Or I could say other, normal-English-speaking people. While I'm not one to put people on ignore, I just don't have any more I can say to you, because you use a unique dictionary no one else has.

 

[Idolater]

What kind of death is this:
Colossians 3:3 KJV — For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

It's not physical death or spiritual death. What other kinds are left?

idk what you want to call it, I'm curious to see.

The opposite of death is life, and the opposite of life is death. James says, "Faith without works is dead," again, death is the opposite of life, and life is the opposite of death.

The idea here is categorical in nature. Yes or no, on or off. 1 or 0.

"Ye are dead," opposite of life. "Faith without works is dead," again, opposite of life.

"Works" in James means in modern language "penance."

Penance is work which is done by a believer, and James is saying every believer does penance. If you see a believer who is not penitential in some way, then you're missing inner penance that the believer is doing, because he or she or neither he nor she, is a believer, however flawed on the outside, and on the inside, but that penitential spirit lives in there.

I propose that "Ye are dead" means our previous spirit, which was not penitential, not toward God and Christ, not how a real believer does penance for their Lord.

I propose "Ye are dead" because that man doesn't live anymore, the one who did not do or want to do penance for his Lord. This one, the new one, the new man, who does believe, does do penance, in some form or fashion. He in fact does penance all the time, his whole soul is inundated with the desire to do penance. Even when he, due to pressures and anxieties which still bother him, feels deliberately like he's holding penance in contempt, really, beneath it all, the scars which remain of the old dead man, he remains penitent.

Even that new man struggling with objective sin is in spirit truly penitent, wishing to please his Lord. His old man is dead, Colossians 3:3, and he is truly penitent, "Faith without penance is dead." The man seeks penance, he seeks it out, internally, externally, his whole being is engulfed in this desire to do penance, to do "works."

 

[Hoping]

You say you mean physical, but your "old man", or flesh, is still alive, physically.

No, it was killed with Christ at my water baptism into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-6, Gal 5:24)
The vessel I walk around in now has been quickened by the Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. (Rom 8:11)

You do NOT have a changed or new physical body yet.

I have a body that was once dead with Christ, but then made alive with Christ.
It is a new creature.

Therefore your words are inconsistent with your words. The only way to do that is for you to mean something different by your words in one case compared to another. And because nobody but you seems to use those words in that way, you can't communicate effectively with other, normal, English-speaking people. Or I could say other, normal-English-speaking people. While I'm not one to put people on ignore, I just don't have any more I can say to you, because you use a unique dictionary no one else has.

The words of the scriptures I use to validate my points can be read and understood by everyone with a mind open to serving God.

 

[Clete]

"Works" in James means in modern language "penance."

Not according to the context it doesn't mean that at all. According to James, "works" means....

• "enduring temptation" (James 1:12)
• being "swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath" (James 1:19)
• "laying aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness" (James 1:21)
• Meekness (James 1:21)
• being "doers of the word" (James 1:22)
• being one "who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work" (James 1:25)
• being one who can "bridle his tongue" (James 1:26)
• "visiting orphans and widows in their trouble, and keeping oneself unspotted from the world." (James 1:26)

And that's just chapter one! Chapter two, where "faith without works is dead" is actually stated, talks specifically about obeying the law!....

James 2:8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself,” you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin, and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For He who said, “Do not commit adultery,” also said, “Do not murder.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. 12 So speak and so do as those who will be judged by the law of liberty. 13 For judgment is without mercy to the one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.​

​

14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?​

And finally, James gives Abraham's offering of his son as an examples of the sort of works he's talking about. Do you say that Abraham offering Isaac as an act of penance? If so, by what logic do you come to such a conclusion? God Himself commanded Abraham to do it and then commanded him to stop before landing the fatal blow to his son. How can that possibly be an act of penance? Penance for what?

Clete

 

[Derf]

No, it was killed with Christ at my water baptism into Christ and into His death and burial. (Rom 6:3-6, Gal 5:24)
The vessel I walk around in now has been quickened by the Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead. (Rom 8:11)

I have a body that was once dead with Christ, but then made alive with Christ.
It is a new creature.

The words of the scriptures I use to validate my points can be read and understood by everyone with a mind open to serving God.

As I said, your words don't fit the uses in common English, much less those in the Bible.

Romans 8:11 KJV — But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Your mortal (physical) body is not yet quickened, because it hasn't died yet. You can't quicken something that's already alive.
1 Peter 4:5 KJV — Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
(There are two kinds of people that will need to be judged when Christ returns, the quick (living) and the dead (non-living). If your flesh has been quickened, the it must have died. But if it has already died and has been quickened (resurrected) in the permanent fashion you propose, then it can't die again.

Romans 6:9 KJV — Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.


And because it is mortal, and still subject to the leadings of itself, likely because death is ever imminent, Paul tells us not to let it lead us back into the bondage of sin
Romans 6:12 KJV — Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.

Your words don't fit with scripture.

 

[7djengo7]

Your words don't fit with scripture.

He was @Hoping you wouldn't notice.

 

[way 2 go]

Are you saying we die as a propitiation for our sins?

no

Or are we counting Christ's death as a propitiation for our sins?

(Hebrews 2:17)Therefore in all things it behoved him to be made like His brothers, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of His people.

If the former, how do we do that and live? If the latter, then it's not our death, but Christ's death that is reckoned to our account.

 

[Hoping]

As I said, your words don't fit the uses in common English, much less those in the Bible.
Romans 8:11 KJV — But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Thanks for printing out the scripture I paraphrased above.

Your mortal (physical) body is not yet quickened, because it hasn't died yet.

It was crucified with Christ and buried with Him.
It was dead with Christ before burial with Christ, and before it was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life with Christ. (Rom 6:3-4)

You can't quicken something that's already alive.

Don't you believe Rom 6:3?
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
How could I have been "immersed" into Christ, or into His death and burial if I was not dead?
Don't you believe Rom 6:6-8?
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Don't you believe Gal 5:24?
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Are you opining that one can live through their crucifixion?

1 Peter 4:5 KJV — Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead.
(There are two kinds of people that will need to be judged when Christ returns, the quick (living) and the dead (non-living). If your flesh has been quickened, the it must have died. But if it has already died and has been quickened (resurrected) in the permanent fashion you propose, then it can't die again.

Don't you know that the word "quickened" means "made alive"?
When I was raised with Christ, (Rom 6:4), it was to walk in newness of life.
I wish you had added 1 Peter 4:1 to your post..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
If you don't have the "same mind" as Christ, that being that you too "suffered in the flesh", you can't live without sin.

Romans 6:9 KJV — Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Amen to that.
And 2 verses later the bible says..."Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Why won't you "consider" your body as dead, and quickened by the Holy Spirit?

And because it is mortal, and still subject to the leadings of itself, likely because death is ever imminent, Paul tells us not to let it lead us back into the bondage of sin

Why would it be subject to anything?
It is just skin and bones !
It is the mind that has complete control over any action the body is commanded to carry out.
Please don't tell me you are of the sect that has granted autonomy to its hands, eyes, and feet.

Romans 6:12 KJV — Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Your words don't fit with scripture.

Obey the command, and live forever !

It seems to me that the word "mortal" body is a stumbling block to faith.
Mortal just means "limited time" instead of eternal.
But you are much more than just a mere vessel.
So, who is in charge of the vessel now that you are "in Christ"?
The vessel?

 

[Derf]

no

(Hebrews 2:17)Therefore in all things it behoved him to be made like His brothers, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of His people.

So you agree it's not our death that's a propitiation? That's good. Do you remember what started this part of the conversation?

What kind of death is this:
Colossians 3:3 KJV — For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

It's not physical death or spiritual death. What other kinds are left?

So now that you've said Christ's death is the propitiation, re-read col 3:3, and tell me what kind of dead are we in that verse?

 

[Derf]

Thanks for printing out the scripture I paraphrased above.

No problem.

It was crucified with Christ and buried with Him.

"It" didn't exist when Christ was crucified and buried.

It was dead with Christ before burial with Christ, and before it was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life with Christ. (Rom 6:3-4)

"It" is still in the process of dying. "It" has not been raised to walk in newness of life, because "it" hasn't died yet.

Don't you believe Rom 6:3?
"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?"
How could I have been "immersed" into Christ, or into His death and burial if I was not dead?

Because it is symbolic. Christ died for us substitutionarily. We have died only "in Christ", not actually...not physically.

Don't you believe Rom 6:6-8?
"Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Is your body/vessel destroyed? Are you still able to breathe and see and walk and talk? Then the passage is true, "that the body of sin might be destroyed." with a future subjunctive case. I.e., it hasn't already happened, but it is assured that it will, because we believe God is able to raise us from the dead as He already raised Jesus from the dead.

7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Don't you believe Gal 5:24?
"And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Are you opining that one can live through their crucifixion?

Nope. But you are.

Don't you know that the word "quickened" means "made alive"?

Yes. Don't you?

When I was raised with Christ, (Rom 6:4), it was to walk in newness of life.
I wish you had added 1 Peter 4:1 to your post..."Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;" (1 Peter 4:1)
If you don't have the "same mind" as Christ, that being that you too "suffered in the flesh", you can't live without sin.

Amen to that.
And 2 verses later the bible says..."Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord."
Why won't you "consider" your body as dead, and quickened by the Holy Spirit?

Because my body, frail though it is, is not dead, not has it ever died. And the Holy Spirit can't make it alive again without it being dead first.

Why would it be subject to anything?
It is just skin and bones !
It is the mind that has complete control over any action the body is commanded to carry out.
Please don't tell me you are of the sect that has granted autonomy to its hands, eyes, and feet.

Obey the command, and live forever !

It seems to me that the word "mortal" body is a stumbling block to faith.
Mortal just means "limited time" instead of eternal.

Mortal--
the state of being subject to death.
This is my point--you are using definitions of words that don't correspond to the English language.

 

[Derf]

@Hoping.
I've come across something that illustrates my issue with your use of words in a way that isn't supported by their meaning. The word "literally" means "actually", as in "I literally blew a gasket when I over-revved my car's engine." You might recognize "blew a gasket" as a figurative phrase meaning "To react furiously and/or violently, to the point of losing control of one's behavior." (from Idioms.thefreedictionary.com) As in "My Dad blew a gasket when he heard I had damaged the car."

But the phrase originally came from what happens to a car when you push it past it's physical limits and a head gasket blows, damaging the engine.

Unfortunately, the word "literally" has started being used to mean "not literally", as in the complaint here:

If "Literally" now means "Figuratively," Which Word Can Be Used for the Previous Meaning?

I have been irked by the trend to use the word "literally" to mean "figuratively." The most recent offense to attack my brain and ears was someone introducing a series of videos filmed around the ...

english.stackexchange.com

In our example you can see how confusing it becomes, "My Dad literally blew a gasket when he heard I had literally blown a gasket." In this sentence the first "literally" means "figuratively", which means the opposite of the second "literally".

If you say, as you have said, that you believe we literally died with Christ physically and were raised with Him physically, when your body wasn't even formed until 2000 years after Christ died, you are using a definition of either "literally" or "physically" that isn't what we know those words to mean. And by doing so, your posts take on a character of obfuscation of truth, rather than the dissemination of truth. And we should not be about sowing confusion.
[1Co 14:33 KJV] 33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

 

[Clete]

@Hoping.
I've come across something that illustrates my issue with your use of words in a way that isn't supported by their meaning. The word "literally" means "actually", as in "I literally blew a gasket when I over-revved my car's engine." You might recognize "blew a gasket" as a figurative phrase meaning "To react furiously and/or violently, to the point of losing control of one's behavior." (from Idioms.thefreedictionary.com) As in "My Dad blew a gasket when he heard I had damaged the car."

But the phrase originally came from what happens to a car when you push it past it's physical limits and a head gasket blows, damaging the engine.

Unfortunately, the word "literally" has started being used to mean "not literally", as in the complaint here:

If "Literally" now means "Figuratively," Which Word Can Be Used for the Previous Meaning?

I have been irked by the trend to use the word "literally" to mean "figuratively." The most recent offense to attack my brain and ears was someone introducing a series of videos filmed around the ...

english.stackexchange.com

In our example you can see how confusing it becomes, "My Dad literally blew a gasket when he heard I had literally blown a gasket." In this sentence the first "literally" means "figuratively", which means the opposite of the second "literally".

If you say, as you have said, that you believe we literally died with Christ physically and were raised with Him physically, when your body wasn't even formed until 2000 years after Christ died, you are using a definition of either "literally" or "physically" that isn't what we know those words to mean. And by doing so, your posts take on a character of obfuscation of truth, rather than the dissemination of truth. And we should not be about sowing confusion.
[1Co 14:33 KJV] 33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Brilliantly stated.

You should (and probably do) know that he already knew all of that before you wrote it. He knows exactly what he's doing and he's doing it on purpose. He's just a troll. Pure and simple. The alternative is a level of stupidity that would render him incapable of using a computer keyboard.

 

[Derf]

Brilliantly stated.

You should (and probably do) know that he already knew all of that before you wrote it. He knows exactly what he's doing and he's doing it on purpose. He's just a troll. Pure and simple. The alternative is a level of stupidity that would render him incapable of using a computer keyboard.

Still, hope springs eternal...

 

[way 2 go]

So you agree it's not our death that's a propitiation? That's good.

(Hebrews 2:17)Therefore in all things it behoved him to be made like His brothers, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of His people.

Do you remember what started this part of the conversation?

you were fishing for another definition of death

So now that you've said Christ's death is the propitiation, re-read col 3:3, and tell me what kind of dead are we in that verse?

what kind of righteous are you ?

 

[Derf]

idk what you want to call it, I'm curious to see.

The opposite of death is life, and the opposite of life is death. James says, "Faith without works is dead," again, death is the opposite of life, and life is the opposite of death.

In some verbiage, perhaps. But consider Adam's newly formed body before God breathed into it the breath of life. Was it "dead", or just "non-living"? The difference is that "dead" usually only applies to something that has already lived in some fashion. When you say your phone is "dead", you don't mean that it never was alive before, but that it was alive, and now it has stopped being alive, or stopped functioning as it was known to function.

The idea here is categorical in nature. Yes or no, on or off. 1 or 0.

Back to the phone analogy, there's a third category to consider. maybe -1, 0, or 1, where 0 means it never existed in the first place.

"Ye are dead," opposite of life. "Faith without works is dead," again, opposite of life.

"Works" in James means in modern language "penance."

I disagree, but maybe you can show why you think this is true.

Penance is work which is done by a believer, and James is saying every believer does penance. If you see a believer who is not penitential in some way, then you're missing inner penance that the believer is doing, because he or she or neither he nor she, is a believer, however flawed on the outside, and on the inside, but that penitential spirit lives in there.

I propose that "Ye are dead" means our previous spirit, which was not penitential, not toward God and Christ, not how a real believer does penance for their Lord.

See how that fits in this scenario:
[Gen 20:3 NLT] 3 But that night God came to Abimelech in a dream and told him, "You are a dead man, for that woman you have taken is already married!"

I propose "Ye are dead" because that man doesn't live anymore, the one who did not do or want to do penance for his Lord. This one, the new one, the new man, who does believe, does do penance, in some form or fashion. He in fact does penance all the time, his whole soul is inundated with the desire to do penance. Even when he, due to pressures and anxieties which still bother him, feels deliberately like he's holding penance in contempt, really, beneath it all, the scars which remain of the old dead man, he remains penitent.

I'm still struggling with your equating works with penance, which suggests we only do good deeds for God because of a guilty conscience.

Even that new man struggling with objective sin is in spirit truly penitent, wishing to please his Lord. His old man is dead, Colossians 3:3, and he is truly penitent, "Faith without penance is dead." The man seeks penance, he seeks it out, internally, externally, his whole being is engulfed in this desire to do penance, to do "works."

This is a bondage I don't want any part of. It was what Martin Luther and John Bunyan and probably many others struggled with before embracing the full-orbed grace of God.

 

[Derf]

(Hebrews 2:17)Therefore in all things it behoved him to be made like His brothers, that He might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of His people.

you were fishing for another definition of death

I was trying to understand a different definition of death than has been used before, since those other ones didn't fit.

what kind of righteous are you ?

That seems red-herring-ish to me.

 

[Hoping]

No problem.
"It" didn't exist when Christ was crucified and buried.

That's the thing about what can be accomplished by faith.
Some can't grasp it but those with faith can.
By faith, I was crucified with Christ. (Gal 5:24)

"It" is still in the process of dying. "It" has not been raised to walk in newness of life, because "it" hasn't died yet.

My death was immediate, but yours seems to be a lingering one...though according to your previous paragraph it didn't exist anyway.

Because it is symbolic. Christ died for us substitutionarily. We have died only "in Christ", not actually...not physically.

What a sorry, sad, hobbling, doctrine.

Is your body/vessel destroyed?

Yes, it was.

Are you still able to breathe and see and walk and talk?

The vessel of the Holy Spirit was quickened by the Holy Spirit when it was raised with Christ to walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:4), so, yes, it breaths, walks and talks

Then the passage is true, "that the body of sin might be destroyed." with a future subjunctive case. I.e., it hasn't already happened, but it is assured that it will, because we believe God is able to raise us from the dead as He already raised Jesus from the dead.

It has yet to happen for those who have yet to repent of sin and get water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins.
Thanks be to God, it has already happened for me.

Nope. But you are.

Actually, my new life started when the Spirit quickened that which had been crucified and buried with Jesus by water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. (Rom 6:3-4)

Yes. Don't you?

OK, "quickened" from what?
Death.
If the Spirit makes it alive, it must have been dead.

Because my body, frail though it is, is not dead, not has it ever died. And the Holy Spirit can't make it alive again without it being dead first.

Then you should get baptized into Christ and into His death and burial.

Mortal--
the state of being subject to death.
This is my point--you are using definitions of words that don't correspond to the English language.

The vessel is not the "sum" of "me".
The vessel will age, and fade away: but I will live forever.
The vessel is subject to my mind in all its deeds.
And thanks be to God I was given the mind of Christ at my being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life as a new creature, reborn of God's seed.

 

[Hoping]

@Hoping.
I've come across something that illustrates my issue with your use of words in a way that isn't supported by their meaning. The word "literally" means "actually", as in "I literally blew a gasket when I over-revved my car's engine." You might recognize "blew a gasket" as a figurative phrase meaning "To react furiously and/or violently, to the point of losing control of one's behavior." (from Idioms.thefreedictionary.com) As in "My Dad blew a gasket when he heard I had damaged the car."

But the phrase originally came from what happens to a car when you push it past it's physical limits and a head gasket blows, damaging the engine.

Unfortunately, the word "literally" has started being used to mean "not literally", as in the complaint here:

If "Literally" now means "Figuratively," Which Word Can Be Used for the Previous Meaning?

I have been irked by the trend to use the word "literally" to mean "figuratively." The most recent offense to attack my brain and ears was someone introducing a series of videos filmed around the ...

english.stackexchange.com

In our example you can see how confusing it becomes, "My Dad literally blew a gasket when he heard I had literally blown a gasket." In this sentence the first "literally" means "figuratively", which means the opposite of the second "literally".

If you say, as you have said, that you believe we literally died with Christ physically and were raised with Him physically, when your body wasn't even formed until 2000 years after Christ died, you are using a definition of either "literally" or "physically" that isn't what we know those words to mean. And by doing so, your posts take on a character of obfuscation of truth, rather than the dissemination of truth. And we should not be about sowing confusion.
[1Co 14:33 KJV] 33 For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Faith can move mountains.
Why shouldn't it be capable of allowing my deserved death, and burial with Christ?

 

[Hoping]

Brilliantly stated.

You should (and probably do) know that he already knew all of that before you wrote it. He knows exactly what he's doing and he's doing it on purpose. He's just a troll. Pure and simple. The alternative is a level of stupidity that would render him incapable of using a computer keyboard.

At least we now know what exactly he can't understand.
That being, faith in the words of Rom 6:3-6, and Gal 5:24.