Why his spirit but not his soul? You say both go to be with the Lord (below), but it seems like the "soul" is usually regarded as the more prominent part of man, so why wouldn't Stephen say that. My answer is that he wasn't talking about a tripartite part of him, but the life that was originally breathed into him by God. The word for spirit is "pneuma", which is derived from the word we get "pneumatic" or "pneumonia" from, so it is sometimes translated "breath", denoting a breath from the nostrils or just a breeze, perhaps. But it seems to be mostly translated "spirit".
[Ecc 12:7 KJV] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
If the spirit "returns to God", then it must have come from God in the first place. Thus it pre-existed before the man was created. It's therefore not a "created spirit" part of the person, but some kind of life-force, perhaps that God grants us at conception. Like what God did with Adam:
[Gen 2:7 KJV] And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
If the breath (or spirit) of life is removed (or given up to God, perhaps, like Stephen), the "living soul" is now a "dead soul", don't you think?
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of verses that speak of the soul departing and not dying. The exception, of course, is when the word "soul" is used as a living human being. Like forty souls lost in the shipwreck.
But the soul is the person, himself. The thinking, reasoning, being with free will etc. So, I can't see how the soul and spirit can be separated at any time.
Genesis 27:25
And he said, Bring it near to me, and I will eat of my son's venison, that my soul may bless thee. And he brought it near to him, and he did eat: and he brought him wine and he drank.
I'm glad you found this one! I was looking at it the other day. The same word for "soul" here is the one in Gen 2:7, and it looks like it is derived from the word for "breath", also from Gen 2:7. The word is sometimes translated "life", as some of the translations prefer. I'm not sure my answer is the best, but using "life" for "soul" here makes more sense than if someone were watching the scene and saw some kind of spiritual apparition departing and returning.
You can imagine, I think, that if someone died, and they had no function, memory, interactions, etc., the next thing they would know is when they are resurrected. This isn't near as clear in this passage as in 2 Cor 5, but it makes the most sense of 1 Thess 4:13-18.
[1Th 4:13 KJV] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[1Th 4:14 KJV] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[1Th 4:15 KJV] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[1Th 4:16 KJV] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[1Th 4:17 KJV] Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[1Th 4:18 KJV] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I'm pretty sure there are plenty of verses that speak of the soul departing and not dying. The exception, of course, is when the word "soul" is used as a living human being. Like forty souls lost in the shipwreck.
But the soul is the person, himself. The thinking, reasoning, being with free will etc. So, I can't see how the soul and spirit can be separated at any time.
Genesis 27:25
And he said, Bring it near to me, and I will eat of my son's venison, that my soul may bless thee. And he brought it near to him, and he did eat: and he brought him wine and he drank.
I've heard some talk about the "soul" being the "whole person", rather than just the "inner person". Obviously there is something that is still the same about the person in the resurrection, but if the resurrection works for everybody, whether buried, burned, or dumped in the sea, what is being resurrected, and what is being made of new material. Hades, Death, and the sea all give up their dead in the second resurrection of Rev 20. What exactly are they giving up? If it's a soul (some sort of spiritless body), why are they coming from 3 different places, instead of all from Hades?
[Rev 20:13 NIV] The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
So it's hard to know what the author intended there. Here's a copy of a bunch of newer translations (which I wonder about the accuracy there in many cases). Notice in how many "life" replaces "soul". In one they use "breath" instead of soul.
Spoiler
NKJV
And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.”
NLT
And he stretched himself out over the child three times and cried out to the LORD, “O LORD my God, please let this child’s life return to him.”
NIV
Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried out to the LORD, “LORD my God, let this boy’s life return to him!”
ESV
Then he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to the LORD, “O LORD my God, let this child’s life[fn] come into him again.”
CSB
Then he stretched himself out over the boy three times. He cried out to the LORD and said, “LORD my God, please let this boy’s life come into him again! ”
NASB20
Then he stretched himself out over the boy three times, and called to the LORD and said, “LORD, my God, please, let this boy’s life return [fn]to him.”
NASB95
Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray You, let this child’s life return [fn]to him.”
NET
He stretched out over the boy three times and called out to the LORD, "O LORD, my God, please let this boy's breath return to him."
The unclothed part is talking about death. The clothed parts are talking about life, one before (in a tabernacle that is dissolving), and one after death (in a house not made with hands, our "heavenly dwelling").
[2Co 5:4 NIV] For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
But I'm sure you recognize that it seems to be a great thing expressed at funerals to "die and be with Jesus", which most admit would be before the resurrection, or in an "unclothed" state.
I'm not sure what to think of it. If in a "sleep" state, does that mean it has locality, but isn't functioning? Why is that important? What if it just ceased to function altogether (By "it", I'm referring to the soul/spirit.), and it starts functioning again when the body starts functioning again--where the person is never a person without the whole person (body/soul/spirit).
I've heard some talk about the "soul" being the "whole person", rather than just the "inner person". Obviously there is something that is still the same about the person in the resurrection, but if the resurrection works for everybody, whether buried, burned, or dumped in the sea, what is being resurrected, and what is being made of new material. Hades, Death, and the sea all give up their dead in the second resurrection of Rev 20. What exactly are they giving up? If it's a soul (some sort of spiritless body), why are they coming from 3 different places, instead of all from Hades?
[Rev 20:13 NIV] The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
I may have to cover this in more than one post. You bring up so many interesting points.
We know Paul says we are body, soul, and spirit. Clearly they are distinct.
1 Thess. 5:22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.
23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
As far as the resurrection each will be raised in their own order even though most will be dust. 1 Corinthians 15:23
But every man in his ownorder: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
If they were saved people lost in the ocean, a spiritual body will be raised at the rapture. The soul/spirit will already be with the Lord.
So it's hard to know what the author intended there. Here's a copy of a bunch of newer translations (which I wonder about the accuracy there in many cases). Notice in how many "life" replaces "soul". In one they use "breath" instead of soul.
Spoiler
NKJV
And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.”
NLT
And he stretched himself out over the child three times and cried out to the LORD, “O LORD my God, please let this child’s life return to him.”
NIV
Then he stretched himself out on the boy three times and cried out to the LORD, “LORD my God, let this boy’s life return to him!”
ESV
Then he stretched himself upon the child three times and cried to the LORD, “O LORD my God, let this child’s life[fn] come into him again.”
CSB
Then he stretched himself out over the boy three times. He cried out to the LORD and said, “LORD my God, please let this boy’s life come into him again! ”
NASB20
Then he stretched himself out over the boy three times, and called to the LORD and said, “LORD, my God, please, let this boy’s life return [fn]to him.”
NASB95
Then he stretched himself upon the child three times, and called to the LORD and said, “O LORD my God, I pray You, let this child’s life return [fn]to him.”
NET
He stretched out over the boy three times and called out to the LORD, "O LORD, my God, please let this boy's breath return to him."
Yep, soul certainly can mean life. In the same way thirty souls were lost at sea. It's speaking of physical death.
But there are also examples of man's soul being his mind, personality, etc. Paul has to be referring to his soul/spirit when he says depart. He would be departing from his body.
Yep. The uniquely 'Protestant' view is that all answers must be and are found and can be found in the Bible, the 'canon' of Scripture. But even then as you know you still have to contend with poor and faulty arguments. As "Ray LaFleur" said, "It's the Bible, it's open for interpretation." Which interpretation is right?
Broadly among 'academic' Christians, there are Lutheranisms, Methodisms, Baptists, Presbyterianisms, 'charismatics', along with Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and Catholicism. There are a great number of other traditions with smaller numbers and of more recent 'vintage'.
We all believe in Christ, in some meaningful way, like that we all believe in His 'bodily' Resurrection from the dead, and that He is the prophesied 'Messiah' from the Old Testament.
We diverge from there, along ethical lines, along ecclesiological lines, along soteriological lines, etc.
One lead that's worth following is recorded history, trying to determine when (or if) the Christian and or Church traditions were all at one point one.
Another is to reason directly from the Scripture, basically ignoring history (to not be unduly influenced by what prior generations of Christians have done, knowing that traditions originating in man alone are not authoritative).
Another compounds the historical and logical paths together.
The unclothed part is talking about death. The clothed parts are talking about life, one before (in a tabernacle that is dissolving), and one after death (in a house not made with hands, our "heavenly dwelling").
[2Co 5:4 NIV] For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed instead with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.
But I'm sure you recognize that it seems to be a great thing expressed at funerals to "die and be with Jesus", which most admit would be before the resurrection, or in an "unclothed" state.
First I'll say this part in blue is a fly in your ointment. Paul has no doubt whatsoever that all believers are eternally secure in their salvation.
And if "absent from the body" = "present with the Lord", but we might not be accepted of Him in the judgment of vs 10, how secure are we in our presence with Him? How likely is it that we die, our souls go to heaven, but then when we are judged (vs 10), we are found not acceptable and removed from His presence?
At the judgment seat of Christ, we are all found acceptable. We have the earnest of the Spirit and have been covered by the blood.
When Paul says "unclothed" he is saying he doesn't want to be left with no covering...a lost soul wandering around looking for a home. It's like this body is a drag, but at least I have a home. At least that's the way I read it.
I'm not sure what to think of it. If in a "sleep" state, does that mean it has locality, but isn't functioning? Why is that important? What if it just ceased to function altogether (By "it", I'm referring to the soul/spirit.), and it starts functioning again when the body starts functioning again--where the person is never a person without the whole person (body/soul/spirit).
Interesting. What about the souls under the altar saying, How long, Lord?
Rev. 6:9-10
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Yep. The uniquely 'Protestant' view is that all answers must be and are found and can be found in the Bible, the 'canon' of Scripture. But even then as you know you still have to contend with poor and faulty arguments. As "Ray LaFleur" said, "It's the Bible, it's open for interpretation." Which interpretation is right?
Broadly among 'academic' Christians, there are Lutheranisms, Methodisms, Baptists, Presbyterianisms, 'charismatics', along with Orthodoxy, Oriental Orthodoxy and Catholicism. There are a great number of other traditions with smaller numbers and of more recent 'vintage'.
We all believe in Christ, in some meaningful way, like that we all believe in His 'bodily' Resurrection from the dead, and that He is the prophesied 'Messiah' from the Old Testament.
We diverge from there, along ethical lines, along ecclesiological lines, along soteriological lines, etc.
One lead that's worth following is recorded history, trying to determine when (or if) the Christian and or Church traditions were all at one point one.
Another is to reason directly from the Scripture, basically ignoring history (to not be unduly influenced by what prior generations of Christians have done, knowing that traditions originating in man alone are not authoritative).
Another compounds the historical and logical paths together.
Well, thanks for the thoughtful response firstly. Secondly, I used to be in a 'charismatic' church many moons ago and people just within that couldn't agree on the topic at hand. As it happened I became disillusioned with it and left although my interest didn't wane.
Interesting. What about the souls under the altar saying, How long, Lord?
Rev. 6:9-10
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Are they believers? Yes. And they're dead, right? So why are they having to stay in some compartment under the altar? And told to rest longer?
My friend died a couple years ago, and at her funeral someone said she was now dancing with Jesus. Why would she be able to dance with Jesus while some other soul is resting (asleep?) under the altar?
Waiting (while resting) for what? Aren't they waiting for a resurrection, that won't happen until their number is complete?
So they are told to go back to sleep until the number is complete, and then they will be resurrected. This seems like prophetic language to me--it certainly doesn't fit with the normal story where you're in heaven with all capability/functionality after you die.
First I'll say this part in blue is a fly in your ointment. Paul has no doubt whatsoever that all believers are eternally secure in their salvation.
And if "absent from the body" = "present with the Lord", but we might not be accepted of Him in the judgment of vs 10, how secure are we in our presence with Him? How likely is it that we die, our souls go to heaven, but then when we are judged (vs 10), we are found not acceptable and removed from His presence?
At the judgment seat of Christ, we are all found acceptable. We have the earnest of the Spirit and have been covered by the blood.
When Paul says "unclothed" he is saying he doesn't want to be left with no covering...a lost soul wandering around looking for a home. It's like this body is a drag, but at least I have a home. At least that's the way I read it.
Are you suggesting there might be folks like that? Sounds like ghosts haunting places.
But if that's possible, when does it happen? Paul certainly doesn't think there are bodiless ghosts in heaven, yet the resurrection hasn't happened yet. So I don't think your reading can be what Paul was getting at.
I believe they are with the Lord, not in some compartment, and they could very well have their spiritual bodies, unless these are those who came out of the great Tribulation. There will be a resurrection for their bodies at the second coming.
By this time, the rapture has taken place and the dead in Christ have already been raised and we which are alive will have been changed.
Romans 5:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
My friend died a couple years ago, and at her funeral someone said she was now dancing with Jesus. Why would she be able to dance with Jesus while some other soul is resting (asleep?) under the altar?
Waiting (while resting) for what? Aren't they waiting for a resurrection, that won't happen until their number is complete?
Try to remember that our body of flesh is only a tent in which we dwelt while on the earth. Our soul (your friend) is indeed in heaven with Jesus if she was saved. I sure don't know about dancing, but it's true we like to picture all kinds of things about heaven. I don't think we even imagine what the Lord has for us. We think we can limit what our spiritual body can do, but Jesus even ate and drank with His.
I think those who have died are eagerly "waiting" until our Lord returns in all His Glory and deals with satan and this sinful world. I wish I could find the answers you're looking for. I know for a fact they can be found in the word.
So they are told to go back to sleep until the number is complete, and then they will be resurrected. This seems like prophetic language to me--it certainly doesn't fit with the normal story where you're in heaven with all capability/functionality after you die.
I really believe these are people who came out of the tribulation. Since the church has already been raptured at this point, I'm betting we can find the answer in the prophets. Good call. I plan on searching this out.
Cleaned up the thread of off-topic political discussion. Please remember that this is a thread in the Religion section. It is not a place for political discussion not directly related to the thread topic.
Cleaned up the thread of off-topic political discussion. Please remember that this is a thread in the Religion section. It is not a place for political discussion not directly related to the thread topic.
I believe they are with the Lord, not in some compartment, and they could very well have their spiritual bodies, unless these are those who came out of the great Tribulation. There will be a resurrection for their bodies at the second coming.
"Under the altar" sounds like some kind of compartment. "Spiritual bodies" only makes sense when talking about resurrected bodies.
[1Co 15:42, 44 KJV] 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: ... 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Try to remember that our body of flesh is only a tent in which we dwelt while on the earth. Our soul (your friend) is indeed in heaven with Jesus if she was saved. I sure don't know about dancing, but it's true we like to picture all kinds of things about heaven. I don't think we even imagine what the Lord has for us. We think we can limit what our spiritual body can do, but Jesus even ate and drank with His.
I appreciate your words of comfort, though I wasn't seeking sympathy--i was using the situation as an example. Paul tells us the opposite for comforting those who've lost loved ones:
[1Th 4:13 KJV] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[1Th 4:16 KJV] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[1Th 4:18 KJV] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
I really believe these are people who came out of the tribulation. Since the church has already been raptured at this point, I'm betting we can find the answer in the prophets. Good call. I plan on searching this out.
It could be tribulation saints, and if so, these are waiting for the first resurrection mentioned in Rev 20, which would then be a second resurrection after the rapture, which is a resurrection of bodies, too.
That must be one of the altars in the Jewish Temple. One of incense (prayers, I'm thinking), the Brazen altar, don't know about that one, or the one where the offering is burnt. We should look into that.
"Spiritual bodies" only makes sense when talking about resurrected bodies.
[1Co 15:42, 44 KJV] 42 So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: ... 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Jesus had a spiritual body before He resurrected. I just get the impressions, when I read this portion, that there are many many kinds of spiritual bodies. Don't know.
1 Cor. 15:40-42
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
I appreciate your words of comfort, though I wasn't seeking sympathy--i was using the inssituation as an example. Paul tells us the opposite for comforting those who've lost loved ones:
[1Th 4:13 KJV] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[1Th 4:16 KJV] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[1Th 4:18 KJV] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
It could be tribulation saints, and if so, these are waiting for the first resurrection mentioned in Rev 20, which would then be a second resurrection after the rapture, which is a resurrection of bodies, too.
That must be one of the altars in the Jewish Temple. One of incense (prayers, I'm thinking), the Brazen altar, don't know about that one, or the one where the offering is burnt. We should look into that.
Jesus had a spiritual body before He
resurrected. I just get the impressions, when I read this portion, that there are many many kinds of spiritual bodies. Don't know.
John 20:
14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 20:
14 And when she had thus said, she turned herself back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.
15 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
And yet he told Thomas to touch him.
[Jhn 20:27 KJV] Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust [it] into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.
I think there are better translations of the Mary passage that say, "stop touching me", or "don't cling to me". It was a real, physical body that was the same as the one that died, but made incorruptible. I think it was even in the process of healing, and despite some well-meaning folks, it might not be that Jesus will bear his scars forever. The bible stops talking about the scars after two references (Thomas and the road to Emmaus, possibly).
