Is death just another life?

[Clete]

If Adam and Eve were expelled from God's presence, and if Christ is God, and if Christ is really present whenever we gather in His name, then what does that say about the idea that in the day that Adam died, when he was expelled from the Garden, that his death was due to his 'separation' from God? Doesn't it somehow reconcile it?

Bit of a rabbit trail here....

The verse about Jesus being present when two or three are gathered together applies to Kingdom believers in the previous dispensation, who had a corporate relationship with God. We need no such group. If you are in Christ then Christ is present with you and in you at all times, even when you're alone.

1 Corinthians 12:27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members individually.​

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2 Corinthians 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?​

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Colossians 3:3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.​

In regards to the point you're making with your post, I would have to say that, dispensational issues aside, I don't see how the "two or three gathered together" idea is pertinent to the topic of Adam's death. Maybe you could elaborate further.

 

[way 2 go]

Paul is not saying the law kills any more than he is saying we are dead to sin.



What the law does is condemn us to death, and that is what Paul is talking about.

For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
"condemn us to death"

what kind of death ?

and "Spirit gives life" .what kind of life ?

I don't think spiritually dead even exists. Call it what you will.
I know what you're saying, but I don't agree.

1. do you believe we have a spirit ?
2. that the spirit can exist apart from your physical body ?

 

[glorydaz]

He literally says "the law kills", GD!

And then he contrasts that by saying "the Spirit gives life"!

That's rather explicit!

I've pointed out before, either in this thread or another, that the authors of the Bible were VERY careful in how they worded what they said.



Which is referring to those to whom "the Spirit [gave] life."



The law doesn't do that. That's Satan that does that. (1 Peter 5:8)

The law is what kills us, and Paul is rather emphatic about this:

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Romans 6:23 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans6:23&version=NKJV

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. - Romans 7:7-12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:7-12&version=NKJV

The law is what delivers the wages of sin (death) to us who have sinned, similar to how the law



And we have such trust through Christ toward God.Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God,who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. - 2 Corinthians 3:4-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2Corinthians3:4-6&version=NKJV

How do you deal with John 3:18, which says the world is condemned already simply because the world doesn't believe?

“He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. - John 3:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John3:18&version=NKJV

Paul then goes on to say this:

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh,But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you. - Romans 8:1-3,9-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans8:1-3,9-11&version=NKJV

Because:

Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter. - Romans 7:1-6 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans7:1-6&version=NKJV



And what point would that be?



Serves me right for giving you the benefit of the doubt.



John 3:16-18

Romans 10:9-15



I usually reserve [ COLOR=RED ] for the words of Christ.

If I'm highlighting something, I usually use [ YELLOW ]/[ /YELLOW].



The phrase does not exist in the Bible, to be sure.

However, I have repeatedly called the separation of man from God "spiritually dead," if for no other reason than ease of use, but mainly because that's how the Bible describes those who are separated from God in Revelation, "dead" on a spiritual level, and there are similarities between that and other instances where the Bible talks about those who do not have a relationship with God when they die physically being separated from Him.



I don't care if you agree with me or not. What I care about is whether you understand the argument presented.



This is called eisegesis, GD. Reading an a priori belief into scripture to try and understand what scripture says is a bad idea.



Except that Paul never describes the law as "condemning" anything, at least not directly that I could find. You're more than welcome to prove me wrong by posting a scripture that has Paul saying that the law condemns, even if it's not verbatim.

Otherwise, I'm going to stick to what Paul said, that the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.



Supra.

I can see I'm getting a bunch of crap from a know it all.

I'm assuming I can safely say that since you have set me such a good example.

 

[glorydaz]

For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
"condemn us to death"

what kind of death ?

and "Spirit gives life" .what kind of life ?

Ah, see there. You say the letter kills and JR says satan condemns.

So, if I break the law, is it the law that kills me or does it condemn me to death? Who pronounces sentence?

1. do you believe we have a spirit ?
2. that the spirit can exist apart from your physical body ?

Of course we are body, soul, and spirit.
Yes, the spirit and soul exist apart from the body.

 

[way 2 go]

Ah, see there. You say the letter kills and JR says satan condemns.

So, if I break the law, is it the law that kills me or does it condemn me to death? Who pronounces sentence?

you said "condemn us to death"
what kind of death ?


and "Spirit gives life" .what kind of life ?

trying to understand

Of course we are body, soul, and spirit.
Yes, the spirit and soul exist apart from the body.

sounds like we might agree but

2. that the spirit can exist apart from your physical body ?

like here
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.

I don't want assume

 

[JudgeRightly]

I can see I'm getting a bunch of crap from a know it all.

I'm assuming I can safely say that since you have set me such a good example.

So instead of actually responding to my post in which I provide what you're asking for, you take a potshot at me.

Shame on you.

 

[Derf]

Now you're going to think about it, after the many times, even in this thread, that you have been presented with "absent from the body"?

Absent from the body == separated from the body == body and soul/spirit are separated = physical death

Are you saying one can only think about one of your points the first time one hears it? You do yourself a disservice, Brother. Many people don’t quite understand the full import of something they hear for the first time.

But it’s worth the relook, so here I go. And by the way, I addressed one aspect of 2 Corinthians 5:6 (KJV)—Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:—in this post: https://theologyonline.com/threads/is-death-just-another-life.57799/post-1832763

But you made a good point about the word “absent” meaning “not in the body, but still somewhere”, if I understood you correctly. That post I referred to above makes the point that Paul is talking about 3 states: alive in the body, dead, and alive with the Lord, with “dead” not being something we desire, but still obviously a state that a believer can be in until the judgment seat of Christ. If so, then “absent from the body”, even if it means present somewhere else, is not the same as present with the Lord.

The word “absent”, ekdēmeō, there is used only 3 times in the whole New Testament, all 3 in this passage, including surrounding verses. It seems to mean “emigrated”, or “having left home and family.” Such comports well with your “dearly departed” definition. The word “present”, endemeo, in this passage means the opposite—at home and with family. In fact, that’s how the same word for “present” is translated here:

2 Corinthians 5:6 (KJV) Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

My first point is that if your definition of death = separation is correct, then Paul is obviously saying we believers are all “spiritually dead” while in the body, since we are separated, “absent”, from the Lord.
And I don’t think you agree with that.

But my next point is that if emigrated is the right way to look at the word “absent”, then the emigration is not complete until we are present with the Lord, which, as I’ve shown, doesn’t happen immediately (see other post). “Dead” (no activity or function) is still an appropriate way to describe Paul’s intermediate state that he calls unclothed or naked—he stresses that we don’t long to be in that state—and it’s similar to the idea that the emigration process isn’t complete. Kind of like being on a ship emigrating to the new world from the old, and during that process you are completely isolated from both the loved ones you left behind as well as the loved ones you hope to see when you land. You have no activity or function that could affect either group.

While my “non existence” may not be a good description of that intermediate state, at least you can see that having no connection, relationship, communication, or influence in either the home we leave (physical body) or the home we’re going to (with the Lord), we may as well be nonexistent.

 

[way 2 go]

My first point is that if your definition of death = separation is correct, then Paul is obviously saying we believers are all “spiritually dead” while in the body, since we are separated, “absent”, from the Lord.

.

Paul is obviously isn't saying we believers are all “spiritually dead” while in the body,
2Co 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

so the definition still stands, spiritual death = separation from God

 

[Derf]

.

Paul is obviously isn't saying we believers are all “spiritually dead” while in the body,
2Co 5:5 He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

so the definition still stands, spiritual death = separation from God

I agree that Paul isn’t saying we are dead, Yet Paul is telling us we are separated from God IN THE SAME WAY (using the same words) that @JudgeRightly is saying that Paul is telling us that we die physically—by a separation.

 

[Arthur Brain]

That seems to be all these twits are capable of doing! Repeating themselves as though we've said nothing.

Do you need other people to suffer as part of your belief? Is there something that won't satisfy if other people don't wind up in some sort of "hell" for you? I'm surmising that you won't take any sort of credit for avoiding such a fate as well? That it's all the divine work of God? That all you need to do is "accept" a gift that spares you from such? That sorta thing?

Good for you that you weren't brought up in an entirely different country/environment if so cos you could well be singing from a different hymn sheet if so and all manner else.

 

[glorydaz]

So instead of actually responding to my post in which I provide what you're asking for, you take a potshot at me.

Shame on you.

Shame on me? Do you actually read the things you post before you hit reply?

You ramble on and on ad nauseum as if you were some great teacher.

But, in the middle of that wordy "post" you wrote, "The law is what kills us, and Paul is rather emphatic about this:

"What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

Your claim that Paul is rather emphatic about the fact that "the law is what kills us", and that is not what Paul says. Sin (TAKING OCCASION BY THE COMMANDMENT)....yep words matter.

And he isn't talking about spiritual death any more than he talks about being crucified with Christ means we are actually crucified.
I doubt you'll even admit your error on the above....which is why I don't spend much time on your long-winded posts.

 

[Derf]

Do you need other people to suffer as part of your belief? Is there something that won't satisfy if other people don't wind up in some sort of "hell" for you? I'm surmising that you won't take any sort of credit for avoiding such a fate as well? That it's all the divine work of God? That all you need to do is "accept" a gift that spares you from such? That sorta thing?

Good for you that you weren't brought up in an entirely different country/environment if so cos you could well be singing from a different hymn sheet if so and all manner else.

And that’s what determines eternal truth, where you grew up? I guess I’m not getting your point. If hell is real, and one avoids it by believing that Jesus rose from the dead, why does it matter where you grew up?

 

[Derf]

Yes, the spirit and soul exist apart from the body.

Well, that is part of what the thread is about. Can you give scripture that says the spirit and soul exist apart from the body?

On the other part, you seem to agree with me about the “spiritual death” term being somewhat meaningless.

 

[Derf]

Except that Paul never describes the law as "condemning" anything, at least not directly that I could find. You're more than welcome to prove me wrong by posting a scripture that has Paul saying that the law condemns, even if it's not verbatim.

Here’s one—conveniently just a couple chapters earlier than the one you brought up about absent from the body.
2 Corinthians 3:7-9 (KJV) 7 But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation [be] glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

Paul uses both “death” and “condemnation” to describe what the law brings, in comparison to what the spirit brings. If the death is really just a promise of death, I.e., a condemnation leading to death, then it isn’t a current state of death, but a future state of death.

 

[glorydaz]

While my “non existence” may not be a good description of that intermediate state, at least you can see that having no connection, relationship, communication, or influence in either the home we leave (physical body) or the home we’re going to (with the Lord), we may as well be nonexistent.

I'm wondering why you see any intermediate state between absent from the body and present with the Lord.

Well, that is part of what the thread is about. Can you give scripture that says the spirit and soul exist apart from the body?

This is a little clearer to me.
Philippians 1:
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

On the other part, you seem to agree with me about the “spiritual death” term being somewhat meaningless.

It's totally meaningless. Our spirit doesn't die, but returns to God who made it. God then decides our fate.

Ecclesiastes 12:7
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

 

[Arthur Brain]

And that’s what determines eternal truth, where you grew up? I guess I’m not getting your point. If hell is real, and one avoids it by believing that Jesus rose from the dead, why does it matter where you grew up?

Of course it doesn't determine truth but your background determines a lot in life and if you were brought up in a country where Islam is the prevailing religion then it's a fair bet that your belief system would be entirely different to what it is now. Where it comes to "truth" then which one? There's plenty of different beliefs where it comes to "hell" in Christianity alone.

 

[Derf]

Of course it doesn't determine truth but your background determines a lot in life and if you were brought up in a country where Islam is the prevailing religion then it's a fair bet that your belief system would be entirely different to what it is now. Where it comes to "truth" then which one? There's plenty of different beliefs where it comes to "hell" in Christianity alone.

And are you interested in finding out which one is true? Or just in promoting multicultural/relative truth, whether it is really true or not?

 

[glorydaz]

Well, that is part of what the thread is about. Can you give scripture that says the spirit and soul exist apart from the body?

What do you think of this one?

Steven in Acts 7?

you said "condemn us to death"
what kind of death ?

If it's a human judge, he can condemn me to physical death.

If it's God, He can condemn me to burn in hell fire.

and "Spirit gives life" .what kind of life ?

Newness of life. That would be with the Spirit of Christ in me.

trying to understand

sounds like we might agree but

2. that the spirit can exist apart from your physical body ?

like here
Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne.

I don't want assume

Yes, our body is a temporary tent, if you will. Our spirit and soul go to be with the Lord while we await our resurrected body at the Rapture. Or, if we're still alive, we'll be changed.

I like this one about the soul departing the body, because this one is brought back.

1 Kings 17:20 And he cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

 

[Derf]

What do you think of this one?

Steven in Acts 7?

Why his spirit but not his soul? You say both go to be with the Lord (below), but it seems like the "soul" is usually regarded as the more prominent part of man, so why wouldn't Stephen say that. My answer is that he wasn't talking about a tripartite part of him, but the life that was originally breathed into him by God. The word for spirit is "pneuma", which is derived from the word we get "pneumatic" or "pneumonia" from, so it is sometimes translated "breath", denoting a breath from the nostrils or just a breeze, perhaps. But it seems to be mostly translated "spirit".
[Ecc 12:7 KJV] Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
If the spirit "returns to God", then it must have come from God in the first place. Thus it pre-existed before the man was created. It's therefore not a "created spirit" part of the person, but some kind of life-force, perhaps that God grants us at conception. Like what God did with Adam:
[Gen 2:7 KJV] And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

If the breath (or spirit) of life is removed (or given up to God, perhaps, like Stephen), the "living soul" is now a "dead soul", don't you think?

Yes, our body is a temporary tent, if you will. Our spirit and soul go to be with the Lord while we await our resurrected body at the Rapture. Or, if we're still alive, we'll be changed.

I like this one about the soul departing the body, because this one is brought back.

1 Kings 17:20 And he cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?
21 And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the Lord, and said, O Lord my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again.
22 And the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

I'm glad you found this one! I was looking at it the other day. The same word for "soul" here is the one in Gen 2:7, and it looks like it is derived from the word for "breath", also from Gen 2:7. The word is sometimes translated "life", as some of the translations prefer. I'm not sure my answer is the best, but using "life" for "soul" here makes more sense than if someone were watching the scene and saw some kind of spiritual apparition departing and returning.

 

[Derf]

I'm wondering why you see any intermediate state between absent from the body and present with the Lord.

I see it because Paul talks about it. It's the state he says we don't long for, but it is something he has to address.

This is a little clearer to me.
Philippians 1:
21 For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
22 But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.
23 For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:
24 Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Paul was in prison when he wrote this. You can see why he would prefer to die, calling it "gain", but was willing to stay as long as it was helpful.

You can imagine, I think, that if someone died, and they had no function, memory, interactions, etc., the next thing they would know is when they are resurrected. This isn't near as clear in this passage as in 2 Cor 5, but it makes the most sense of 1 Thess 4:13-18.
[1Th 4:13 KJV] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
[1Th 4:14 KJV] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
[1Th 4:15 KJV] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
[1Th 4:16 KJV] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
[1Th 4:17 KJV] Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
[1Th 4:18 KJV] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.