Is death just another life?

[Derf]

In the pentateuch, many of the patriarchs are described as being "gathered to his people" when they died. This "gathering" is talked about with dying, and with burying, as if it's a third part of the process.

An obvious way to read this is to see it as referring to where the soul goes after death, which would speak against my view. I have a few things that make me think that's not what's intended by the author. This verse makes it look more like a euphemism, because Moses' people would be the same as Aaron's people.
Deuteronomy 32:50 (KJV)
And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:

The phrase ceases to be used at the end of the Pentateuch. There's an altered version in the book of Judges, as well as 2 Kings, which might have been written by the same "compiler", but definitely not by Moses. The later phrase is "gathered to their [thy] fathers".

Judges 2:10 (KJV)
And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.

2 Kings 22:20 (KJV) Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.

That last one gives an additional way to understand the word "gather", associated with the preparation of the body, perhaps.

 

[glorydaz]

In the pentateuch, many of the patriarchs are described as being "gathered to his people" when they died. This "gathering" is talked about with dying, and with burying, as if it's a third part of the process.

Looks to me like it's the second part of the process. Died, then gathered, then buried.

Gen. 25:8-9
Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;

An obvious way to read this is to see it as referring to where the soul goes after death, which would speak against my view. I have a few things that make me think that's not what's intended by the author. This verse makes it look more like a euphemism, because Moses' people would be the same as Aaron's people.
Deuteronomy 32:50 (KJV)
And die in the mount whither thou goest up, and be gathered unto thy people; as Aaron thy brother died in mount Hor, and was gathered unto his people:

Here, too, Moses died and was gathered to his people....then later he was buried somewhere no one knows. If I remember correctly.

The phrase ceases to be used at the end of the Pentateuch. There's an altered version in the book of Judges, as well as 2 Kings, which might have been written by the same "compiler", but definitely not by Moses. The later phrase is "gathered to their [thy] fathers".

Judges 2:10 (KJV)
And also all that generation were gathered unto their fathers: and there arose another generation after them, which knew not the LORD, nor yet the works which he had done for Israel.

2 Kings 22:20 (KJV) Behold therefore, I will gather thee unto thy fathers, and thou shalt be gathered into thy grave in peace; and thine eyes shall not see all the evil which I will bring upon this place. And they brought the king word again.

That last one gives an additional way to understand the word "gather", associated with the preparation of the body, perhaps.

They went to what is known as Abraham's Bosom. That place of waiting until Jesus came and died on the cross.

 

[Derf]

Looks to me like it's the second part of the process. Died, then gathered, then buried.

Gen. 25:8-9
Then Abraham gave up the ghost, and died in a good old age, an old man, and full of years; and was gathered to his people.
And his sons Isaac and Ishmael buried him in the cave of Machpelah, in the field of Ephron the son of Zohar the Hittite, which is before Mamre;

Here, too, Moses died and was gathered to his people....then later he was buried somewhere no one knows. If I remember correctly.

They went to what is known as Abraham's Bosom. That place of waiting until Jesus came and died on the cross.

But what do you make of Moses and Aaron being gathered to their own, distinct people, rather than to the same people?

 

[glorydaz]

But what do you make of Moses and Aaron being gathered to their own, distinct people, rather than to the same people?

Oh my goodness. I don't know, but I got carried away reading about Moses and Aaron last night, til I got too tired to reply.

From what I read, I'm not sure they were "distinct" people, as in different. But, after what I read about Aaron, it did make me think that he was on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. So that could be the distinction you're seeing. God kept him in his priestly office through a whole bunch of evil, because He needed him there for some reason.

 

[Derf]

Oh my goodness. I don't know, but I got carried away reading about Moses and Aaron last night, til I got too tired to reply.

From what I read, I'm not sure they were "distinct" people, as in different. But, after what I read about Aaron, it did make me think that he was on the opposite side of Abraham's bosom. So that could be the distinction you're seeing. God kept him in his priestly office through a whole bunch of evil, because He needed him there for some reason.

Are you really suggesting that God's grace isn't merciful enough for Aaron?

 

[glorydaz]

Are you really suggesting that God's grace isn't merciful enough for Aaron?

I can't see into Aaron's heart, and it isn't a question of God's grace.

It's a question of whether Aaron's faith was in God, and whether his works met God's demands.

 

[Derf]

I can't see into Aaron's heart, and it isn't a question of God's grace.

It's a question of whether Aaron's faith was in God, and whether his works met God's demands.

But surely any Israelite reading that would think, "There's no way God can save me from hell, if even Aaron is in hell today." Do you know of any other case where God tells of a particular man's ultimate destiny (Judas excepted, perhaps)? To say the high priest can't be saved by doing what God requires (implying belief), would leave people hopeless. It would be like finding out Paul was in hell today for the murders he committed against the early church.

 

[Idolater]

But surely any Israelite reading that would think, "There's no way God can save me from hell, if even Aaron is in hell today." Do you know of any other case where God tells of a particular man's ultimate destiny (Judas excepted, perhaps)? To say the high priest can't be saved by doing what God requires (implying belief), would leave people hopeless.

Why? See below.

It would be like finding out Paul was in hell today for the murders he committed against the early church.

That doesn't follow for me. It would seem to be more like we find out Paul was a fraud, but he still preached the real Gospel, and people still really believe in Christ because of that Word that Paul----the whole thing an act, on his part----preached. You could still damn Paul, and it wouldn't mean anything about Christ and the Gospel and those who come to believe, at least as far as I'm concerned.

 

[glorydaz]

But surely any Israelite reading that would think, "There's no way God can save me from hell, if even Aaron is in hell today." Do you know of any other case where God tells of a particular man's ultimate destiny (Judas excepted, perhaps)? To say the high priest can't be saved by doing what God requires (implying belief), would leave people hopeless. It would be like finding out Paul was in hell today for the murders he committed against the early church.

Hey, you're the one who made me think Aaron might have been gathered to another place.

Well, let's look at Aaron.
Exodus 32-1-4 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. 2 And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings, which are in the ears of your wives, of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me. 3 And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron. 4 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

And here the Lord was angry with Aaron and Miriam...so much so that Miriam was given leprosy.

Numbers 12:1 And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman. 2 And they said, Hath the Lord indeed spoken only by Moses? hath he not spoken also by us? And the Lord heard it.

 

[glorydaz]

Why? See below.

That doesn't follow for me. It would seem to be more like we find out Paul was a fraud, but he still preached the real Gospel, and people still really believe in Christ because of that Word that Paul----the whole thing act, on his part----preached. You could still damn Paul, and it wouldn't mean anything about Christ and the Gospel and those who come to believe, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Yeah, I'll bet there are more instances where God used people He didn't end up saving.

 

[Derf]

Why? See below.

That doesn't follow for me. It would seem to be more like we find out Paul was a fraud, but he still preached the real Gospel, and people still really believe in Christ because of that Word that Paul----the whole thing an act, on his part----preached. You could still damn Paul, and it wouldn't mean anything about Christ and the Gospel and those who come to believe, at least as far as I'm concerned.

Try this scenario. Let's say all 12 of the original apostles went the same way as Judas, but didn't commit suicide, or repent. They didn't continue to preach the gospel, nor confirm the resurrection. All they did was baptize and offer communion. They then trained their own disciples to do the same. Where would the church be today?

 

[glorydaz]

Try this scenario. Let's say all 12 of the original apostles went the same way as Judas, but didn't commit suicide, or repent. They didn't continue to preach the gospel, nor confirm the resurrection. All they did was baptize and offer communion. They then trained their own disciples to do the same. Where would the church be today?

LOL You must be getting bored.

We should go back to Aaron.
Or, like you already mentioned. Judas. He was right there with the rest until the betrayal.

Still, he was trusted just like Aaron was.
One thing we do know is that Moses interceded for Aaron, so there's that.

 

[Idolater]

Try this scenario. Let's say all 12 of the original apostles went the same way as Judas, but didn't commit suicide, or repent. They didn't continue to preach the gospel, nor confirm the resurrection. All they did was baptize and offer communion. They then trained their own disciples to do the same. Where would the church be today?

I don't understand the part about separating preaching the gospel and confirming the resurrection, from communion. If by communion you just mean the distribution of 'wafers' then your scenario is difficult to imagine, since what would sustain such practices for centuries on end?

 

[Derf]

I don't understand the part about separating preaching the gospel and confirming the resurrection, from communion. If by communion you just mean the distribution of 'wafers' then your scenario is difficult to imagine, since what would sustain such practices for centuries on end?

That's my point. If the man in charge of the ritual doesn't believe in the ritual's power, how could it last?

 

[Idolater]

That's my point. If the man in charge of the ritual doesn't believe in the ritual's power, how could it last?

My point was that the ritual is not just the distribution of 'wafers' but literally includes preaching the gospel and confirming the resurrection. So if the man preaching the gospel and confirming the resurrection doesn't believe what he's preaching and what's he confirming, that isn't going to necessarily stop someone from coming to faith in Jesus. Php1: " 15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."

 

[Right Divider]

Try this scenario. Let's say all 12 of the original apostles went the same way as Judas, but didn't commit suicide, or repent. They didn't continue to preach the gospel, nor confirm the resurrection. All they did was baptize and offer communion. They then trained their own disciples to do the same. Where would the church be today?

The "church today" is not descended from the 12... it's supposed to be following Paul.

 

[Derf]

My point was that the ritual is not just the distribution of 'wafers' but literally includes preaching the gospel and confirming the resurrection. So if the man preaching the gospel and confirming the resurrection doesn't believe what he's preaching and what's he confirming, that isn't going to necessarily stop someone from coming to faith in Jesus. Php1: " 15 Some indeed preach Christ even of envy and strife; and some also of good will: 16 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing to add affliction to my bonds: 17 But the other of love, knowing that I am set for the defence of the gospel. 18 What then? notwithstanding, every way, whether in pretence, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do rejoice, yea, and will rejoice."

That's why I compared Aaron to Paul or the other apostles. Of course there are fakes. But if the main guy, Aaron in OT, or Paul or other apostles (all of them) in NT are fakes, the movement dies. That's why Jesus said,
John 17:12 (KJV)
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

That's why Nadab and Abihu were killed, imo.
Numbers 3:4 (KJV)
And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest's office in the sight of Aaron their father.

 

[Gary K]

Luke 8:41-56 is the basis for the following video in which Jesus once more declared death to be a sleep. Yes, our eternal Creator and Savior declared death to be a sleep. There is no refuting this fact. Oh, you can call Jesus an ignorant fool, and so stupid he couldn't tell the difference between a dead man and a sleeping one, but that is only thinly disguised hatred of the God of the universe.

The lengths some will go to defend a pet unbiblical theology is amazing when truth is clear, simple, and undeniable.

 

[Derf]

Luke 8:41-56 is the basis for the following video in which Jesus once more declared death to be a sleep. Yes, our eternal Creator and Savior declared death to be a sleep. There is no refuting this fact. Oh, you can call Jesus an ignorant fool, and so stupid he couldn't tell the difference between a dead man and a sleeping one, but that is only thinly disguised hatred of the God of the universe.

The lengths some will go to defend a pet unbiblical theology is amazing when truth is clear, simple, and undeniable.

I haven't heard that one for awhile. Thanks for posting it.

I'm not sure it's quite as much of a slam dunk as you think. The question that remains is whether Jesus thought "asleep" referred to the body only, or to the whole person. You and I would agree it means the whole person.

But the next step is to determine what "asleep" looks like. The body decays, obviously, but what happens to the soul and/or spirit?

Paul seems to say there's nothing else going on without a resurrection:

1 Corinthians 15:17-18 (KJV) 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith [is] vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

1 Corinthians 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[glorydaz]

That's why I compared Aaron to Paul or the other apostles. Of course there are fakes. But if the main guy, Aaron in OT, or Paul or other apostles (all of them) in NT are fakes, the movement dies. That's why Jesus said,
John 17:12 (KJV)
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

That's why Nadab and Abihu were killed, imo.
Numbers 3:4 (KJV)
And Nadab and Abihu died before the LORD, when they offered strange fire before the LORD, in the wilderness of Sinai, and they had no children: and Eleazar and Ithamar ministered in the priest's office in the sight of Aaron their father.

Aaron was simply a priest, doing what he was told.
He was not a prophet and wrote no books of the Bible.
I see nothing that shows he was saved or is anything like the Apostle Paul.

I will say this. God can use ungodly men for His own purposes.