glorydaz
Well-known member
Yep.
Is Calvinism Wrong?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
Yep.
You didn't sound very willing on the other thread , but I'll start on it tomorrow .
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The reason that the word "Surrender" is not found in the New Testament in English or Greek is because it suggest that God has beaten us down to the point where we surrender. This teaching that God makes us surrender has its roots in Calvinism. God does not force himself upon us like some believe, but instead gently calls us by the Holy Spirit. If anything we submit to the call of the Holy Spirit.
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Rosenritter
New member
The reason the word "surrender" is not found in the New Testament English is because "yield" is a simpler synonym.
Rom 6:13-19 KJV
(13) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
(14) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
(15) What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
(16) Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
(17) But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
(18) Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
(19) I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
If you would rather, we could refer to "yielding" ourselves to Christ (per Romans 6:13) assuming that there is no disagreement that Jesus is Christ and Jesus is God. Paul makes similar substitutions for God and Jesus elsewhere.
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Ok glorydaz this is what I'd like to do .
This thread is about " is calvinism wrong " ? Yes , it is wrong , not because of its doctrine , but because of a misunderstanding of Faith and how Faith is specifically applied to grow a relationship in Christ . This is due to the Greek word pisteuo not having the correct word in the English language to communicate it's meaning .
With that said , it's not just Calvinism that's wrong , everyone who has built their relationship with Christ on the mistranslated words believe, believer , and believing are wrong also .
What I propose , is I start a thread here titled Faith and the Salvation process . This thread will be intended for you and I to hopefully have a long detailed journey through the Salvation process
as communicated by the NT authors .if your on board with this , and can be serious , honest with yourself , and civil , just reply ok and I'll begin .
The Greek word "pisteuo" means believe. You want it to say "surrender". It doesn't say that. I think that you need to give it up.:deadhorse:
genuineoriginal
New member
Many people have been taught this lie:I think you're limiting grace. But I think AMR is doing the same thing on the other side of the coin.
"The grace of God is His unearned, unmerited and undeserved favor toward you".
The truth is:
"God sent His Son because of His unearned, unmerited and undeserved love towards us".
But, grace and love are very different.
Love can be unmerited.
Grace must be merited, but only the one giving grace can decide what merits His grace.
genuineoriginal
New member
I don't see anything about any courtroom in the definition for G189 ἀκοή akoē:
| Thayer's Greek Lexicon STRONGS NT 189: ἀκοή ἀκοή, -ῆς, ἡ, (from an assumed perfect form ἤκοα, cf. ἀγορά above [but cf. Epic ἀκουή; Curtius, p. 555]); 1. hearing, by which one perceives sounds; sense of hearing 1 Corinthians 12:17; 2 Peter 2:8. Hebraistically, ἀκοῇ ἀκούειν by hearing to hear, i. e., to perceive by hearing, Matthew 13:14; Acts 28:26 (Isaiah 6:9); cf. Winers Grammar, § 44, 8 Rem. 3, p. 339; § 54, 3, p. 466; [Buttmann, 183f (159)]. 2. the organ of hearing, the ear: Mark 7:35; Luke 7:1; 2 Timothy 4:3, 4; Acts 17:20; Hebrews 5:11. 3. thing heard; a. instruction, namely oral; specifically, the preaching of the gospel, [A. V. text report]: John 12:38; Romans 10:16f (τίς ἐπίστευσε τῇ ἀκοῇ ἡμῶν; from Isaiah 53:1, Hebrew שְׁמוּעָה, which in 2 Samuel 4:4, etc., is rendered ἀγγελία); ἀκοὴ πίστεως preaching on the necessity of faith, (German Glaubenspredigt), Galatians 3:2, 5; λόγος ἀκοῆς equivalent to λ. ἀκουσθείς [cf. Winer's Grammar, 531 (494f)]: 1 Thessalonians 2:13; Hebrews 4:2. b. hearsay, report, rumor; τινός, concerning anyone: Matthew 4:24; Matthew 14:1; Matthew 24:6; Mark 1:28; Mark 13:7. (Frequent in Greek writings.) |
genuineoriginal
New member
Why are you trying to make faith into a pisting contest?
genuineoriginal
New member
That is not a problem, so why are you trying to fix it?
genuineoriginal
New member
You seem to be basing your entire doctrine on a single Greek word.
Try going to the Hebrew for fuller understanding.
h530 אֱמוּנָה 'emuwnah
| אֱמוּנָה ʼĕmûwnâh, em-oo-naw'; or (shortened) אֱמֻנָה ʼĕmunâh; feminine of H529; literally firmness; figuratively security; morally fidelity:—faith(-ful, -ly, -ness, (man)), set office, stability, steady, truly, truth, verily. |
Rosenritter
New member
Act 13:46 KJV
(46) Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
So wouldn't this imply that if some can be unworthy of everlasting life, that God could find others worthy of everlasting life? This would seem to support that grace can be unearned and undeserved without necessarily being unmerited. Those words are similar but not necessarily the same.
genuineoriginal
New member
Yes, grace must be unearned but cannot be unmerited.
(I believe deserved means the same as merited.)
God give grace to the humble, but resists the proud.
James 4:6 6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. |
If we are believe our works deserve a reward, then we are proud and the reward for our work is not grace.
Ephesians 2:9 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. |
Romans 4:4 4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. |
| earn to receive as return for effort and especially for work done or services rendered merit character or conduct deserving reward, honor, or esteem deserve to be worthy, fit, or suitable for some reward or requital |
Grace is not received as a return for effort, nor for work done, nor for services rendered.
Grace is given to those that have the character or conduct that God determines is worthy, fit, or suitable for some reward, honor, or esteem.
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Bumped for glorydaz .
So, I was thinking about this question about whether Calvinists are saved while driving too and from one of my jobs today and it reminded me of something that beloeved57 has posted in his signature.
It's a quote from Charles Spurgeon. It reads as follows...
B57 stops the quotation there but Spurgeon continued...
And to be clear about what Spurgeon was referring to when he spoke of Calvinism, he expressly refers to that Calvinism which he read in Calvin's writings and nowhere else...
That is not to say that he believed Calvinism because Calvin taught it. In fact, he states clearly that, " I believe nothing merely because Calvin taught it, but because I have found his teaching in the Word of God." The point is, however, that Spurgeon's Calvinism is Calvin's Calvinism and not some watered down version where there is wiggle room inserted where Calvin's own words get uncomfortable.
Spurgeon then would agree with Calvin when he said the following...
Most people who call themselves Calvinists DO NOT believe these things! Many of them wouldn't even believe you if you told them that these are direct quotes (translated of course) of John Calvin himself and will begin to get wobbly about the label of "Calvinist", saying things like, "Well, I don't take it that far." or something similar. These are the Calvinists that are almost certainly saved. They're Calvinists in name only and make up significant percentage of the Calvinist universe and make up a clear majority of Calvinists who are also Baptists. The real Calvinists, people like Spurgeon, Knox, Sproul, McArthor, beloved57, Nang, Nanja and, I'm sorry to say, probably AMR do not fit into that category and their salvation is very much in question for they believe in a god that does not exist and which would be unjust if it did.
To be clear, I do not say that they are not saved but that their salvation is in question. I would also say that, in my view, it seems wise to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are NOT saved and treat them accordingly lest they die thinking they've believed the truth when, in fact, they've placed their faith in an inherantly unjust idol that does not actually exist.
Resting in Him,
Clete
It's a quote from Charles Spurgeon. It reads as follows...
"And I have my own private opinion that there is no such a thing as preaching Christ and him crucified, unless you preach what now-a-days is called Calvinism. I have my own ideas, and those I always state boldly. It is a nickname to call it Calvinism; Calvinism is the gospel, and nothing else."
B57 stops the quotation there but Spurgeon continued...
I do not believe we can preach the gospel, if we do not preach justification by faith, without works; nor unless we preach the sovereignty of God in his dispensation of grace; nor unless we exalt the electing, unchangeable, eternal, immutable, conquering, love of Jehovah; nor do I think we can preach the gospel, unless we base it upon the peculiar redemption which Christ made for his elect and chosen people; nor can I comprehend a gospel which lets saints fall away after they are called, and suffers the children of God to be burned in the fires of damnation after having believed. Such a gospel I abhor. The gospel of the Bible is not such a gospel as that. We preach Christ and him crucified in a different fashion, and to all gainsayers we reply, "We have not so learned Christ." (Sermon number 98 New Park Street Pulpit 1:100)
And to be clear about what Spurgeon was referring to when he spoke of Calvinism, he expressly refers to that Calvinism which he read in Calvin's writings and nowhere else...
Again, I must say, I am not defending certain brethren who have exaggerated Calvinism. I speak of Calvinism proper, not that which has run to seed, and outgrown its beauty and verdure. I speak of it as I find it in Calvin's Institutes, and especially in his Expositions. I have read them carefully. I take not my views of Calvinism from common repute but from his books. Nor do I, in thus speaking, even vindicate Calvinism as if I cared for the name, but I mean that glorious system which teaches that salvation is of grace from first to last. (Sermon number 385 Metropolitan Tabernacle Pulpit 7:554)
That is not to say that he believed Calvinism because Calvin taught it. In fact, he states clearly that, " I believe nothing merely because Calvin taught it, but because I have found his teaching in the Word of God." The point is, however, that Spurgeon's Calvinism is Calvin's Calvinism and not some watered down version where there is wiggle room inserted where Calvin's own words get uncomfortable.
Spurgeon then would agree with Calvin when he said the following...
“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)
“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)
Most people who call themselves Calvinists DO NOT believe these things! Many of them wouldn't even believe you if you told them that these are direct quotes (translated of course) of John Calvin himself and will begin to get wobbly about the label of "Calvinist", saying things like, "Well, I don't take it that far." or something similar. These are the Calvinists that are almost certainly saved. They're Calvinists in name only and make up significant percentage of the Calvinist universe and make up a clear majority of Calvinists who are also Baptists. The real Calvinists, people like Spurgeon, Knox, Sproul, McArthor, beloved57, Nang, Nanja and, I'm sorry to say, probably AMR do not fit into that category and their salvation is very much in question for they believe in a god that does not exist and which would be unjust if it did.
To be clear, I do not say that they are not saved but that their salvation is in question. I would also say that, in my view, it seems wise to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they are NOT saved and treat them accordingly lest they die thinking they've believed the truth when, in fact, they've placed their faith in an inherantly unjust idol that does not actually exist.
Resting in Him,
Clete
glorydaz
Well-known member
I'm always honest with myself, and being "civil" is in the eye of the beholder.
I'll be happy to talk about anything you want, but when you discard perfectly fine words and substitute your own we'll inevitably run into problems. Terms must be agreed upon or there is no way discussions can be profitable to anyone.
What word did I discard and replace with my own ?
You want to change the word "believe" to the word "surrender" do you not?