If you don't believe in the trinity...

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Eeset

.
LIFETIME MEMBER
Ok, lets re-cap:



:think:

Ok, but it comes off as a 'confounding' statement....even a non sequitur.

Lets take this on from a few different perspectives:

From a purely Unitarian view,....there is no problem with such a statement, because Jesus is not worshipped as 'God Almighty', so there is no attempt or desire to worship Jesus as 'God'. Jesus doesn't need to be 'God'! - Only those claiming or believing this, are those who have the burden of proving it.

:idunno:

Also a modalist can still worship Jesus as 'God', without accepting some traditional-orthodox description of the Trinity, since the One God expresses thru 3 modes, and possibly more, since 'God' is Infinite. So a true modalist would not accept your 'statement' as true.

I could bring up more examples and from different schools or points of view. You know I enjoy it too, as one of my fortes. Its not to be antagonistic or difficult,...as my first post asked honest questions, because of the confounding nature of the statement based on whatever logic or assumptions are being held to validate the proposition. that's all. Now I've supplied Unitarian and Modalistic perspectives in view of your statement. I'll let you creatively engage and respond if you like.




pj
So you are saying the same thing that I said. You are saying that people can praise Jesus, look up to him and give him honor without believing in the trinity. No problem there. What you can't do is worship Jesus as God unless you believe in the trinity.
 

daqq

Well-known member
It is not an assumption but rather a statement. Read the first commandment.

:thumb: Hi Eeset, :)

At first I also was a little unsure exactly what you meant by your initial statement in the OP, but now I see, and agree. Likewise, since those "to whom the Word of Elohim has come" are also called elohim, (John 10:34-35, quoting from Psalm 82:6, and adding that "the scripture cannot be broken") whoever therefore claims to believe and uphold the scripture should include themselves/ourselves in the first commandment. For if we are indeed called elohim, but then we put ourselves before THE ELOHIM, we have broken the first of His Ten Words. :)
 

iamaberean

New member
If you don't believe in the trinity,
Then you can not worship Jesus.

You are confused,
God is Spirit and there is no other Spiritual God. Jesus is that Spiritual God in the flesh and he is the redeemer.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
 

daqq

Well-known member
You are confused,
God is Spirit and there is no other Spiritual God. Jesus is that Spiritual God in the flesh and he is the redeemer.

Isa 44:6 Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
Rev 1:11 Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last:
Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

What happened to the Son being the Word of God? Is your word literally you? Testimony is Spirit and your own word is your own "son" of a spiritual-supernal nature, (whether a vessel of spirit set for honor to the glory of the Father or whether an Esau old-man nature vessel of spirit fitted for destruction into perdition). :)
 

OCTOBER23

New member
EESET- August 13th, 2015, 10:16 PM
If you don't believe in the trinity...
Then you can not worship Jesus.
========================

WRONG WRONG WRONG.

JESUS WENT UP TO GOD AND WAS CHANGED BACK INTO A GOD AND SENT DOWN HIS MIND POWER ALONG WITH GOD'S SPIRIT WHICH HELPS US TO OVERCOME SIN.

YOU CANNOT BLASPHEME THE HOLY SPIRIT BECAUSE IT IS A COMBINATION OF THE FATHER AND JESUS.

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory
which I had with thee before the world was.

Galatians 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son
into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father

WE HAVE THE MIND OF CHRIST.

1 Corinthians 2:16 ...But we have the mind of Christ.

INDWELLING SPIRIT

Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
1 John 4:13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

WE ARE SET APART , SANCTIFIED, MARKED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT

1 Corinthians 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

WE HAVE A DOWN PAYMENT, AN ERNEST = THE COMFORTER, HOLY SPIRIT.

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

2 Corinthians 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

2 Corinthians 8:16 But thanks be to God, which put the same earnest care into the heart of Titus for you.
Ephesians 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
 
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iamaberean

New member
What happened to the Son being the Word of God? Is your word literally you? Testimony is Spirit and your own word is your own "son" of a spiritual-supernal nature, (whether a vessel of spirit set for honor to the glory of the Father or whether an Esau old-man nature vessel of spirit fitted for destruction into perdition). :)
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
 

JFish123

New member
THREE MORE REASONS JESUS IS GOD

Reason #1: Jesus declared Himself God, "I AM."
Jesus, in response to the Pharisees’ question “Who do you think you are?” said, “‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’ ‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham!’ ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds” (John 8:56–59). The violent response of the Jews to Jesus’ “I AM” statement indicates they clearly understood what He was declaring—that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14.

If Jesus had merely wanted to say He existed before Abraham’s time, He would have said, “Before Abraham, I was.” The Greek words translated “was,” in the case of Abraham, and “am,” in the case of Jesus, are quite different. The words chosen by the Spirit make it clear that Abraham was “brought into being,” but Jesus existed eternally (see John 1:1). There is no doubt that the Jews understood what He was saying because they took up stones to kill Him for making Himself equal with God (John 5:18). Such a statement, if not true, was blasphemy and the punishment prescribed by the Mosaic Law was death (Leviticus 24:11–14). But Jesus committed no blasphemy; He was and is God, the second Person of the Godhead, equal to the Father in every way.

Jesus used the same phrase “I AM” in seven declarations about Himself. In all seven, He combines I AM with tremendous metaphors which express His saving relationship toward the world. All appear in the book of John. They are: I AM the Bread of Life (John 6:35, 41, 48, 51); I AM the Light of the World (John 8:12); I AM the Door of the Sheep (John 10:7, 9); I AM the Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14); I AM the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25); I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6); and I AM the True Vine (John 15:1, 5).

REASON #2: Thomas calls Jesus “Lord and God” in Jn 20:28, in the Greek its κύριός (Lord) μου (my) καὶ (and) ὁ θεός (God) μου (my) or basically “my Lord and my God.” Some people try to make explanations to avoid it, such as Thomas spoke of two separate entities, Jesus as an earthly Lord, and God as the heavenly father that was up in the sky.
However that explanation fails as Thomas said to HIM, not to THEM, Jesus is “my Lord and my God.” Col. 2:9 is very clear, the fullness of deity or God-hood/God-ness dwells in Jesus. While we have Gods spirit living in us, WE cannot say the fullness of deity dwells in us. God lives in us, but his divine nature is not a part of us; Jesus on the other hand had the fullness of Gods divine nature in his body. That is the difference. Also see Heb 1:3.

REASON #3: The Granville Sharp Rule
Paul calls Jesus “God and Savior” in Titus 2:13. According to Granville Sharps Rule #1 (a rule used in interpreting Greek texts) “When the copulative kai (“and”) connects two personal nouns (“God,” “Savior”) which are singular and not proper nouns (such as names) both nouns refer to the first-named person.” Basically in case someone tries to say that this refers to two separate entities, the Greek grammar does not work that way. These two nouns (God/Savior) can only refer to one entity, Jesus. This rule is exceptionless. One must argue solely on theological grounds against these passages. There is truly no real grammatical objection that can be raised.
https://youtu.be/Wj6Ba7xci4Y
 

daqq

Well-known member
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Yeshua says: The Logos which you hear is not of me, but contrariwise, it is of the One sending me, the Father, (John 14:24). In the beginning was the Memra-Logos, and the Memra-Logos was with the Elohim-Angelon, and Elohim was the Memra-Logos: the same was in the beginning with the Elohim-Angelon. All things through him came into being, and outside of him came nothing into being which has come into being. In him was Life, and the Life was the Light of the men: and the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overtake him. That Light is the true Light which lights every man that enters into the world. There came to be a man sent from Elohim of the name Yochanan: the same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light but was sent to bear witness of that Light. The Light was the Truth which lights every man that enters into the world. He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as receive him, to them he gives power to become offspring of Elohim: to them that are faithfully trusting into his name, not those of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but from Elohim having been produced. And the Memra-Logos became flesh, and tabernacles among us, (John 1:1-14a) but all flesh is not the same flesh: there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fish, and another of birds, (and therefore the Dove). There are somata-bodies heavenly, and there are somata-bodies earthly; but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another, (1 Cor 15:39-40) if there is a soma psuchikon natural-physical body, then there is a soma pneumatikon spiritual-ethereal body, (1 Cor 15:44).

At the time when Yochanan was immersing at the Yarden River, and all the people came to be immersed, Yeshua came also from the Galil unto Yochanan at Yarden to be immersed under his name. And being in prayer Yeshua immerses, (for the Immerser is the Witness and lays not a hand upon the one being immersed) and by and by ascending up from the water Yeshua sees the heavens torn and the Spirit of the Holy One descending in somatiko-bodily form as a dove and entering into him: and a voice comes to be from heaven, "You are My Son: This day have I begotten you", (Luke 3:21-22 Codex Bezae). And thereupon shone a great light roundabout that place. And Yochanan seeing the great light, and having gone through [several plunges of] the immersion, prevented him, saying, "Who are you, Master? I have need under your name to be immersed: and you come to me?" And Yeshua answering says unto him, "Allow it for now: for in this manner it is fitting for us to fill up all righteousness." Then Yochanan allowed it. And by and by ascending from the water, behold, the heavens were opened unto him and he saw the Spirit of Elohim descending as if a dove and alighting upon him: and, lo, a voice from the heavens, saying, "This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I delight", (Hebrew Mattew : Epiphanius Panarion 30.13.7-8, Matthew 3:14-17). And the Memra-Logos tabernacles in the heart of the man Yeshua, and the Princely Power of the Empire, the Spirit of the Father, remains upon the shoulder of the man Yeshua, (Isaiah 9:6 YLT) Emmanuel, (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23). :)
 

keypurr

Well-known member
Yeshua says: The Logos which you hear is not of me, but contrariwise, it is of the One sending me, the Father, (John 14:24). In the beginning was the Memra-Logos, and the Memra-Logos was with the Elohim-Angelon, and Elohim was the Memra-Logos: the same was in the beginning with the Elohim-Angelon. All things through him came into being, and outside of him came nothing into being which has come into being. In him was Life, and the Life was the Light of the men: and the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overtake him. That Light is the true Light which lights every man that enters into the world. There came to be a man sent from Elohim of the name Yochanan: the same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light but was sent to bear witness of that Light. The Light was the Truth which lights every man that enters into the world. He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as receive him, to them he gives power to become offspring of Elohim: to them that are faithfully trusting into his name, not those of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but from Elohim having been produced. And the Memra-Logos became flesh, and tabernacles among us, (John 1:1-14a) but all flesh is not the same flesh: there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fish, and another of birds, (and therefore the Dove). There are somata-bodies heavenly, and there are somata-bodies earthly; but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another, (1 Cor 15:39-40) if there is a soma psuchikon natural-physical body, then there is a soma pneumatikon spiritual-ethereal body, (1 Cor 15:44).

At the time when Yochanan was immersing at the Yarden River, and all the people came to be immersed, Yeshua came also from the Galil unto Yochanan at Yarden to be immersed under his name. And being in prayer Yeshua immerses, (for the Immerser is the Witness and lays not a hand upon the one being immersed) and by and by ascending up from the water Yeshua sees the heavens torn and the Spirit of the Holy One descending in somatiko-bodily form as a dove and entering into him: and a voice comes to be from heaven, "You are My Son: This day have I begotten you", (Luke 3:21-22 Codex Bezae). And thereupon shone a great light roundabout that place. And Yochanan seeing the great light, and having gone through [several plunges of] the immersion, prevented him, saying, "Who are you, Master? I have need under your name to be immersed: and you come to me?" And Yeshua answering says unto him, "Allow it for now: for in this manner it is fitting for us to fill up all righteousness." Then Yochanan allowed it. And by and by ascending from the water, behold, the heavens were opened unto him and he saw the Spirit of Elohim descending as if a dove and alighting upon him: and, lo, a voice from the heavens, saying, "This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I delight", (Hebrew Mattew : Epiphanius Panarion 30.13.7-8, Matthew 3:14-17). And the Memra-Logos tabernacles in the heart of the man Yeshua, and the Princely Power of the Empire, the Spirit of the Father, remains upon the shoulder of the man Yeshua, (Isaiah 9:6 YLT) Emmanuel, (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23). :)

Good post friend, but they will not understand it.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

New member
Hall of Fame
Hi Eeset,

This assumption needs better explanation and evidence that supports your conclusion, could you provide that ? , and if this case is being made from some belief or rationale that is your own, or are you sharing this as a belief held by others?





pj

Do you share the same view as your "little green men friends?" Do
you ever argue with them? I mean about UFO issues and such?
 

Desert Reign

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
If you don't believe in the trinity.. Then you can not worship Jesus.

There are two ways to understand the second part of your statement, hinging on different meanings of 'cannot'.

1) Belief in the trinity is a prerequisite for worshipping Jesus
2) If you worship Jesus then of necessity you will also believe in the trinity.

2) is different to the first one because you may perchance never have heard of the doctrine of the trinity, whereas with 1) you must already have heard of it and believe it in order to worship Jesus. But with the second, if you haven't heard of the trinity and yet worship Jesus, then of necessity, when the trinity is explained to you, you will believe it.

Let me pose another question: do you worship his Worship, the Mayor? And another, do you ascribe worth to your husband / wife?
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Yeshua says: The Logos which you hear is not of me, but contrariwise, it is of the One sending me, the Father, (John 14:24). In the beginning was the Memra-Logos, and the Memra-Logos was with the Elohim-Angelon, and Elohim was the Memra-Logos: the same was in the beginning with the Elohim-Angelon. All things through him came into being, and outside of him came nothing into being which has come into being. In him was Life, and the Life was the Light of the men: and the Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness cannot overtake him. That Light is the true Light which lights every man that enters into the world. There came to be a man sent from Elohim of the name Yochanan: the same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light but was sent to bear witness of that Light. The Light was the Truth which lights every man that enters into the world. He was in the world, and the world came to be through him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own and his own received him not. But as many as receive him, to them he gives power to become offspring of Elohim: to them that are faithfully trusting into his name, not those of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but from Elohim having been produced. And the Memra-Logos became flesh, and tabernacles among us, (John 1:1-14a) but all flesh is not the same flesh: there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fish, and another of birds, (and therefore the Dove). There are somata-bodies heavenly, and there are somata-bodies earthly; but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another, (1 Cor 15:39-40) if there is a soma psuchikon natural-physical body, then there is a soma pneumatikon spiritual-ethereal body, (1 Cor 15:44).

At the time when Yochanan was immersing at the Yarden River, and all the people came to be immersed, Yeshua came also from the Galil unto Yochanan at Yarden to be immersed under his name. And being in prayer Yeshua immerses, (for the Immerser is the Witness and lays not a hand upon the one being immersed) and by and by ascending up from the water Yeshua sees the heavens torn and the Spirit of the Holy One descending in somatiko-bodily form as a dove and entering into him: and a voice comes to be from heaven, "You are My Son: This day have I begotten you", (Luke 3:21-22 Codex Bezae). And thereupon shone a great light roundabout that place. And Yochanan seeing the great light, and having gone through [several plunges of] the immersion, prevented him, saying, "Who are you, Master? I have need under your name to be immersed: and you come to me?" And Yeshua answering says unto him, "Allow it for now: for in this manner it is fitting for us to fill up all righteousness." Then Yochanan allowed it. And by and by ascending from the water, behold, the heavens were opened unto him and he saw the Spirit of Elohim descending as if a dove and alighting upon him: and, lo, a voice from the heavens, saying, "This is My Son, the Beloved, in whom I delight", (Hebrew Mattew : Epiphanius Panarion 30.13.7-8, Matthew 3:14-17). And the Memra-Logos tabernacles in the heart of the man Yeshua, and the Princely Power of the Empire, the Spirit of the Father, remains upon the shoulder of the man Yeshua, (Isaiah 9:6 YLT) Emmanuel, (Isaiah 7:14, Matthew 1:23). :)

A outward drama of a inward process, Mosses and Joshua played out the same type of play, Moses being like John (both first born of the flesh) Matt 11:11 in relation to to promised land/Heaven Numbers 27:12-12. Jesus/Joshua enter the promised/Heaven as leaders of the sheep/Divine thoughts.
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
If you don't believe in the Trinity you have a strong need to focus on the elements of theology and faith that are meaningful for you.

Jesus never, ever said that "Thou shalt believe in the Trinity."

Jesus walked the earth and the theology in his name came later. Much later.
 

Apple7

New member
Jesus never, ever said that "Thou shalt believe in the Trinity."

He most certainly did...

Mark 12.28 - 30

And coming up, one of the scribes, hearing them arguing, knowing that He answered them well, he questioned Him, What is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: "Hear, Israel. The Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul" and with all your mind, "and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. (Deut. 6:4, 5)

Here we have Jesus declaring that the very first commandment is the Shema – which describes God as being Triune.
 

Apple7

New member
That is the most warped view of the Shema that I have ever seen. :kookoo:


Jesus' reply was to a scribe...i.e. someone who knows the Hebrew scriptures of the OT.

Jesus references Deut 6.4- 5 which, in the Hebrew, declares the following...



•Tetragrammaton = singular
•Elohim = Plural
•Echad = one unity
•The juxtaposed words…Tetragrammaton, Elohim, Tetragrammaton, Echad
•God is referred to not once, not twice, but three times
•Singular, Plural, Singular
•These three elements form one unity
•Singular = Plural
•Plural = Singular
•God = Gods
•God is clearly singular
•God is clearly plural
•God is Uniplural
 

aikido7

BANNED
Banned
He most certainly did...

Mark 12.28 - 30

And coming up, one of the scribes, hearing them arguing, knowing that He answered them well, he questioned Him, What is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is: "Hear, Israel. The Lord our God is one Lord, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul" and with all your mind, "and with all your strength." This is the first commandment. (Deut. 6:4, 5)

Here we have Jesus declaring that the very first commandment is the Shema – which describes God as being Triune.
You are adding later theology to the original text. By bringing up the Mosaic Law, Jesus is saying nothing whatsoever about the dogma of the Trinity.

The concept of the Trinity was worked out generations after the crucifixion.

You will NEVER find the word "Trinity" in the New Testament nor in the Hebrew Bible.

To follow your claim, Jesus most certainly DID NOT mention the word "Trinity."
 

Apple7

New member
You are adding later theology to the original text.

No.

You are deleting theology that has always been present.



By bringing up the Mosaic Law, Jesus is saying nothing whatsoever about the dogma of the Trinity.

Jesus replies to a scribe who knows the Hebrew and its implications.





The concept of the Trinity was worked out generations after the crucifixion.

God has always revealed Himself as Triune.




You will NEVER find the word "Trinity" in the New Testament nor in the Hebrew Bible.

Its juxtaposed next to the term 'monad'...




To follow your claim, Jesus most certainly DID NOT mention the word "Trinity."

This is the claim of God...not mine..
 

Eeset

.
LIFETIME MEMBER
No.

You are deleting theology that has always been present.

Jesus replies to a scribe who knows the Hebrew and its implications.

God has always revealed Himself as Triune.

Its juxtaposed next to the term 'monad'...

This is the claim of God...not mine..
Clearly you have not spent much time if any in Synagogue.
 
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