keypurr
Well-known member
Thank you, I think.
But do not pray to Mary for she can not hear you, pray to the Father instead.
If you don't believe in the trinity...
- Thread starter Eeset
- Start date
- Status
Thank you, I think.
But do not pray to Mary for she can not hear you, pray to the Father instead.
keypurr
Well-known member
Well Keypurr, I am glad you are starting to try.
I do not fault you in this as I believe the Greek NT kind of drops the issue unfortunately. My personal belief is that the state church of Constantine and later Roman emperors may have destroyed earlier non-Greek manuscripts, and generally followed the practice of the Septuagint which replaced YHWH with the Koine Greek, Kurios, which was a generic Greek word for lord or master. I believe the Jews were even responsible for this because of their belief at the time that YHWH was too holy to pronounce or transcribe into other languages. The Greek Kurios is actually the equivalent of the Hebrew adon, or lord. YHWH simply did not get transcribed into Greek or if it did it got destroyed. I have actually found some references from Jewish scribes at the time who said they destroyed any Greek manuscripts they found which did this.
It is one of His names, but the teaching that only the Father is YHWH is a Jewish one. Posters like Elia and Ben Masada regular post this teaching here at TOL. What the Tanakh actually says tho is different, as I am showing to you.
I am not criticizing you Keypurr, but inviting you to look. I don't think one can get an accurate picture of God solely from the Greek NT. The Syriac Peshitta version of the NT does use "Marya" for Jesus which is essentially the Aramaic shorthand for "YHWH." Later books introduced into the Peshitta however, don't seem to use it for YHWH as consistently, but it seems to get confounded with the generic lord at times.
The English translations of the Bible tend to follow the Greek practice of using a generic "LORD" for YHWH, thus not relaying the meaning of the name at all, but I pose it is important to understanding "God" since God seems to have a practice of using a name relating what He is being for the people.
It has become very confused to people friend, which is why I bring it up. Probably the best Hebrew equivalent to the English "God" is El which roughly means "the power." English is a Saxon language. Saxons were Teutons who conquered the western Roman empire. The Teuton word for "God" was "Gott." The Goths meant basically the "people of God." Roman records show they came from the East, and they are on record in the third century as giving Rome trouble in what is now Turkey, and was then the Eastern Roman Empire or later the Byzantine Empire (after the West fell to the Teutons). I believe they came from Parthia, which was basically the land of Babylon and where the 10 tribes ended up after spreading a little from Assyria ie Turkey.
The plural of El is Elim, and actually appears in the Bible in the Hebrew transliteration from Aramaic Daniel.
The plural of Eloah is Elohim. Eloah is not widely used in the Bible, but is used of God primarily when speaking of being the stone of Israel or the Rock of our Salvation in the OT ie Tanakh. Thus, Elohim is not the same as El at all. I believe it means something akin to the family of stone/immovable force. This explains why He says things like I am an El of Elohim or the God of gods in Deuteronomy.
YHWH is not as clear. Individually, the letters can mean Behold the hand, behold the nail. The small yod letter being peg or nail. The word it forms means something like I breathe, or I exist or from the earliest Hebrew idea, I have breath - I live. "I am" is another rendering. Thus in the OT where God says "I am the LORD your God, or transliterated I am YWHW your Elohim, He is saying something like I am the breath, life, word of your family of stone/immovable force - over and over again in the Bible. I realize this will sound very new to you, but I am happy to discuss this with you to whatever length you like.
Understanding these types of things has really helped me "demystify" God.
I think you could teach me a lot on this subject friend. I recently purchased the ARAMAIC ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT on the Web snd it is opening my eyes to the differences between it and the Greek. I am see how the Greek can cause confusion. This edition is chuck full of great note about the culture of the language.
Check it out at
Www.AENT.org
I have so much to learn but little time to learn it.
I welcome all the help I can get.
I just wish I was younger so my mind could hold more.
Blessings
RevTestament
New member
Well, let me tell you where I am currently at on that. I got kinda excited about the Peshitta, until I found that it really doesn't offer much that is earlier than our current Greek manuscripts. It does offer hints tho that the Greek NT is not the earliest form of the NT.
For instance the Greek says things like Jesus said it is easier for a camel (Greek Camelos) to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.
The Peshitta says it is easier for a rope to pass through the eye of needle....
It is simply untenable to believe that the Syriac translation got "rope" from the Greek "camelos" for camel and vice versa.
However, when one learns that both camel and rope come from the same root Aramaic word, one can see how the Syriac version ended up with rope, and the Greek version ended up with camel if the original was indeed written with the Aramaic word.
Unfortunately, this does little to boost the somewhat frequent claim made by these people that the Peshitta was the original NT. On the contrary, it seems it too came from earlier Aramaic Galilean manuscripts in all likelihood - at least when it comes to Matthew and maybe Mark. Syriac is itself another version of Aramaic - they are not the same. Aramaic languages evolved into several dialects including Arabic.
csuguy
Well-known member
That passage that you reference is a funny one. I've seen drastically different versions of that verse, and I don't know enough Hebrew to tell you which is correct. At any rate, Jesus is not the Father - but rather the Son. Nowhere is he called the Father, and the Trinity doctrine even acknowledges this much - for they use "Father" and "Son" to differentiate these two personages. And "Prince of Peace" is a funny title since Jesus explicitly says that he didn't come to bring peace, but a sword.
One point of interest is that it says his name (singular) shall be : "Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace". These aren't individual titles, but a single-name. This is important point that results in quite different interpretations.
For instance, on this jewish website, this translation is offered: "and his name will be called, 'A wonderful counselor is the mighty Gd, an everlasting father is the ruler of peace.'" (http://www.whatjewsbelieve.org/prooftext6is96.html) Very different, and probably more correct. Mind I'm not endorsing the website - but the translation makes a lot more sense to me and is consistent with other long names in the OT.
RevTestament
New member
I am definitely not fluent in Hebrew, but I have taught myself enough to know a few things. I believe the reason that verse is interpreted so many different ways is that it tends to blow away what the various sects all claim. The Jews claim that only the Father is YHWH. The trinitarians believe that God is immutable, and as you note that the Son is not the Father and is the Son for evermore.
While this is correct, I did not say the Son is the Father, and that is not what Isa 9:6 says either. It is a prophecy. The Son is the "legal agent" or revelation of the Father to us who showed us the way. Thus Jesus says things like those who saw Him, saw the Father.
Jesus did bring peace - peace of salvation and freedom from fear of death. However, Jesus is also saying that He is their last chance. As the revelation of the Father to them, and as YHWH, a rejection of Him was a rejection of the Father. Thus, the day of vengeance had arrived upon the Jews. This is the sword He brought to the Jews - for Jerusalem to be utterly laid waste and for the people to be scattered until the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled.
Well, since El Gibbor(Mighty God) is used elsewhere in reference to the Father, without similar appendages, I would have to say this is a disputable point.
Very different and not correct as there is no verb there in the Hebrew.
Again, I think it fairly obvious that the different translations are being foisted upon the Hebrew because those (like yourself) are reading it with their preconceived notions of scripture theology. One person who also happens to post on this website even tried to tell me that the power on his shoulder is the Father, so the verse is saying the Mighty God, the Father is on the shoulder of the Son.
The plain, simple interpretation of most who know Hebrew is that this Son shall be called the Everlasting Father or Father of all ages....
This doesn't fit your paradigm so you look for other "more comfortable" interpretations.
I posit that this is the literal meaning of the verse, and the rightful inheritance of the Son who the Father says in Isa 42 is the only servant who shall receive His glory. Isa 65:9 says the inheritor from Judah shall inherit His holy mountains. Isa 9:6 makes it clear that in that day Jesus shall be the Father, and their oneness shall be complete. This is how Jesus can say "Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." Matt 19:28
The creeds cover up this truth with things like "co-equal," "eternally begotten," etc. The doctrine of the trinity has cornered itself, because it leaves no room for the Son to inherit the other names of the Father. He is already YHWH Elohim with Him. But I stand with Isaiah and proclaim that He shall be indeed called the Father when His inheritance in the saints is fulfilled.
Ephesians 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
csuguy
Well-known member
Indeed only the Father, God Almighty, is called YHWH by the scriptures. The term certainly isn't applied to Jesus, and it isn't used in the NT save in Quotes of the OT where it is changed into the word Lord and where by tradition it is spelled in all-caps "LORD" to distinguish it from the normal usage of the word Lord.
I agree that the Son is God's agent, and in that sense is referred to as "God" in places. For, indeed, even Moses was said to be God - and Aaron his prophet. But even when calling him "God" the scriptures make it clear that he is not God Almighty:
Hebrews 2:8-9 But of the Son He says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of [h]His kingdom. 9 “You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You With the oil of gladness above Your companions.”
However, nowhere is he called the Father. This term is used exclusively in reference to God Almighty. Jesus himself says that the Father is greater.
While in a certain sense he maybe said to have brought peace - for certainly one who repents, is forgiven, and is reconciled to God has certainly found peace - yet in another sense he brought division. This is why he said things like this:
Matthew 10:34
“Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
By Jesus' own words your position is found to be faulty. Indeed, throughout the scriptures he is never called Prince of Peace - at least not that I can find.
It is not disputable, it's grammar. It is a single name. If you try to treat it as a simple list of titles then your approach is flawed.
I wouldn't expect a verb to be in there as it is all a single name. Nor is this some exception to the rule, but this is a common pattern in Hebrew and the OT. For example:
Isaiah 8:3 So I approached the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. Then the Lord said to me, “Name him [a]Maher-shalal-hash-baz;
In the footnotes it translates this as "swift is the booty, speedy is the prey". Again, there are no verbs. This naming style is quite different from what we are used to - but is well established in Hebrew and the bible.
You shouldn't be so rash at claiming other people's beliefs are pre-concieved - for you know nothing of my studies or the time I have put into studying these issues. Just because someone's views don't agree with your own doesn't mean that the person hasn't studied the matter - nor that they aren't correct while you are wrong.
Or is it the other way around, you are comfortable with your view of this scripture and so refuse to consider legitimate arguments against it. I have given you three clear problems with the verse which you have yet to reconcile. 1) Jesus is the Son, not the Father, and he is never called the Father. 2) Jesus didn't come to bring peace, but a sword. 3) The verse is giving him a single name, not a list of titles.
"Their oneness shall be complete?" So you think they are going to merge into one being? Like a robot? :AMR:
As 1 Cor 15:20-28 points out, the Son will be subjected to God. God does not leave the picture, nor does the Son ever become his equal. The Father is greater and when all is said and done he himself will rule us directly. The Jews errored when the demanded a King like the other nations - and this will be corrected when the heavens and earth are remade.
RevTestament
New member
We just went over a passage where the Son shall be called a title which includes El Gibbor, Mighty God.
I know you have been following this thread somewhat, so what is your response to these passages
Isaiah 26: 4 Trust ye in the Lord for ever: for in the Lord Jehovah(YHWH) is everlasting strength:
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
To me that says their dead bodies shall arise together with YHWH's dead body
and here:
Gen 3:22 ¶And YHWH Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
(let me guess...the majestic plural argument?)
That passage is likening Moses to Jesus, making him an elohim to Pharoah. That really isn't God in the sense of the Most High, El Elyon, but more like a member of the house of El or an unmovable force to Pharoah as Elohim.
Yep quoting Psalms which uses Elohim. So He is Elohim and YHWH with the Father even from Gen 3:22.
Moreover, more shall be called YHWH per Jeremiah 33:16.
Revelation 14:1 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father’s name written in their foreheads.
Yep. He is not the Father, El Elyon in the present, but literally showed the way to the Father in laying down His life for the sheep.
So you are saying that is the Father? Really? Who brought Rome on Jerusalem? Jesus or the Father? Who brought Assyria on Israel? Jesus or the Father?
No, I think Isa 9:6 shows that Jesus is the Prince of Peace who held back the hand of the Father so as many Israelites could accept Him as possible.
see above. That is one interpretation made by Jews who deny the Savior my friend - remember that. Others, including Messianic Jews read it differently.
OK point made. Implied verbs can be included in names.
We all operate out of "paradigms" my friend. You are no different that way. Your paradigm is that Jesus does not change or inherit a name. Hebrews says He already did. Heb 1:1-8
I merely say He will do so again.
I concede that I too operate out of a paradigm, however, it has shifted several times in my life, and I am open to learn more. But from what I know, I operate out of the paradigm I am presenting to you - that Jesus will inherit the kingdoms of the Father, after He humbly presents them to the Father, and will be Father of the regeneration.
This is a priesthood thing - not a reference to Star Wars
So like Melchisedek became like unto the Son without beginning of days, the Son shall inherit all the Father has which He is willing to share with those who follow Him.While I can state that this will not be "like a robot" I really can't tell you exactly how the Father accomplishes this. My guess is they will retain separate bodies, but the Son will inherit the knowledge and experiences of the Father, and His knowledge will not be limited anymore. Thus, He will become the "Father" in every respect except for a physical combination.
Paul does not say this of the Son.
The Jews did err, and yes it will be corrected when the heavens and earth are remade, as the stone the builder's rejected becomes the head of the corner. "Head of the corner".... sounds like the Father of the house doesn't it?
Zech 12:8 In that day shall YHWH defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the Lord before them.
9 ¶And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
Ben Masada
New member
If you don't believe in the trinity
If you don't believe in the trinity
You are right. That's why I do not worship Jesus; because I can't believe in the trinity.
If you don't believe in the trinity
You are right. That's why I do not worship Jesus; because I can't believe in the trinity.
csuguy
Well-known member
I accept that he is called God in a few places (though debate the translation of this particular verse) - but it is simultaneously made clear that he is not God Almighty, as in Hebrews 1.
First off, Isaiah is speaking in Isaiah 26, not God. So "my body" would refer to Isaiah's body. Secondly, apparently only some manuscripts say "My body." Here are some more common renderings of the passage:
(NASB) Your dead will live; [m]Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew is as the dew of the [n]dawn, And the earth will [o]give birth to the [p]departed spirits.
(NIV) But your dead will live, Lord; their bodies will rise— let those who dwell in the dust wake up and shout for joy— your dew is like the dew of the morning; the earth will give birth to her dead.
It looks like you are relying on the KJV:
(KVJ) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
Often when the KJV differs from the others, I find that it is the one at fault - so I'm not convinced that it says "my body." Even if so, it is clear that Isaiah is the one speaking, not God.
It could mean any number of things, it isn't explained. One Jewish explanation is that he was speaking with the angels.
I'd argue its in the same sense that it is also applied to angels and to Christ: these are God's agents to whom he has given power and authority to carry out his will. They do not speak for themselves but speak God's words to the people.
No - it doesn't use YHWH, even in the OT Hebrew version. It says elohim, yes - but that is a different term and is applied to others like angels and Moses.
Scripture never says or implies that the Son at any point becomes the Father. To the contrary, the Father is a separate being, God Almighty, who exists at the same time as the Son. Hence the Son says that he does nothing of himself, but only what the Father shows him to do.
You apparently think little of the Father if you think the Son had to hold him back and teach him compassion. You forget God's compassion in the OT, such as to David who deserved death. You also forget that it is the Son who will carry out the judgement. You think of love and justice as being two opposed forces, but you are wrong. Justice is a form of love.
Jews may reject the Savior, but that doesn't mean that they don't have good and true knowledge worth learning so as to enhance our own understanding of the scriptures. Indeed, historically the Christian Church often has relied upon the Jewish community to enhance its understanding of the OT.
At any rate, I didn't say that particular rendering was necessarily the correct one - only that it is clear that the version you and others commonly used is flawed and does not match up with the rest of the scriptures.
Given this, then you should be able to see how the other translation I provided from that Jewish website follows the same pattern.
Just because you operate out of a paradigm does not mean that one's views are simply "preconceived" notions. One who truly studies the scriptures cannot help but experience many paradigm shifts. Keep in mind that I started off as your standard Trinitarian until I started trying to defend it. Then I realized I couldn't defend it to myself - and so began a long theological journey that has completely transformed my understanding of things.
The part that I don't see in the scriptures is the idea that Jesus will become the Father. And where did the (current) Father go in your model? Do you teach that there will then be two Fathers?
The scriptures teach the opposite - that Jesus will be subjected to God (1 Cor 15)
This is a priesthood thing - not a reference to Star Wars
While I can state that this will not be "like a robot" I really can't tell you exactly how the Father accomplishes this. My guess is they will retain separate bodies, but the Son will inherit the knowledge and experiences of the Father, and His knowledge will not be limited anymore. Thus, He will become the "Father" in every respect except for a physical combination.
And where does scripture say that they are not one, or will become one? Rather Jesus says that he is one with the Father, even before his death on the cross (John 10:30).
Paul does say that he will be subjected to God. Jesus says the Father is greater. Nowhere does it say that at any point Jesus will be made equal to/replace the Father.
Actually it sounds like it is speaking of a son - see above
Last edited:
Don't fall for this blatant Masorete text alteration keypurr. The Father does not know evil. RT and I have had some of this discussion in another forum and RT simply decides like most that he upholds the Masoretic Hebrew Text over and above the older Septuagint which matches more precisely whatever it was that most all of the Apostolic writers quoted from. This passage is one of the more blatant attempts by the Masoretes to reinforce the monotheistic faith in the One God, the Father. And although this point is true we did not need alterations to the text to prove it. This is one of the worst instances of this kind of manipulation because by placing the Tetragrammaton into Genesis 3:22 it makes it read as if the Father knows evil. This is tantamount to blasphemy, if it is incorrect, and this cannot be proven from anywhere else in the Scripture, so be careful. The much older Septuagint says no such thing as the Masoretic now says:
Genesis 3:21-23 KJV Restored Name (Masoretic Text)
3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did YHWH Elohim make coats of skins, and clothed them.
3:22 And YHWH Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
3:23 Therefore YHWH Elohim sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
http://yahushua.net/scriptures/gen3.htm
Genesis 3:21-23 LXX-Septuagint Greek (Brenton Translation)
21 And the Lord God [YHWH Elohim] made for Adam and his wife garments of skin, and clothed them.
22 And God [Elohim] said, Behold, Adam is become as one of us, to know good and evil, and now lest at any time he stretch forth his hand, and take of the tree of life and eat, and so he shall live forever—
23 So the Lord God [YHWH Elohim] sent him forth out of the garden of Delight to cultivate the ground out of which he was taken.
http://biblehub.com/sep/genesis/3.htm
Express Image of God - Post#1099
The Septuagint does not say or imply that the Father knows good and evil but rather only [the] Elohim. This may seem to be only a technical difference on the surface but an incorrect resulting understanding may be catastrophic. The Father YHWH Elohim alone is the Almighty while all other Elohim/elohim are subservient to Him. And again RT and I have had similar discussions so I already know pretty much what will be said concerning the Septuagint. It is a decision everyone must make for himself or herself if so be that one is even willing to look this far into this issue.
The pagans believed in a Triad of gods. They were polytheists. That means they believed in three main gods (Triad) who were completely separate beings. And they ruled over the rest of the gods.
The Trinity is 1 God with three persons-The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit that are equal in essence and nature as One God. And they rule over No other gods as there's only one God. Unlike JW where there are at least two (The God and a god) so the Trinity has less gods then The Watchtower. We have One-The Trinity. And the Bible clearly states in the Trinity, so it's not from "outside pagan religions."
For example, Peter refers to the saints who have been chosen "according to the foreknowledge of God The Father." (1 Peter 1:2) when Jesus made a post resurrection appearance to Thomas, the disciple worshipfully responded by addressing Him, "My Lord and MY GOD." (John 20:28) The Father also said of the Son, "Your throne O God, is forever and ever." In Acts 5:3-4, we are told that lying to the Holy Spirit is equivalent to lying to God. Peter said,"Ananias, why has satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit,,, You have not lied to men but to God."
Besides being called God, each of the three persons are seen on different occasions to possess the attributes of deity. Note the following examples:
All three persons possess the attribute of omnipresence:
The Father (1 Kings 8:27)
The Son (Matthew 28:20)
The Holy Spirit (psalm 139:7)
All three have the attribute of omniscience:
The Father (psalm 147:5)
The Son (John 16:30)
The Holy Spirit (1 Corinthians 2:10)
All three have the attribute of omnipotence:
The Father (Psalm 135:6)
The Son (Matthew 28:18)
The Holy Spirit (Romans 15:19)
Holiness is ascribed to each of the three persons:
The Father (Revelation 15:4)
The Son (Acts 3:14)
The Holy Spirit (Romans 1:4)
Eternity is ascribed to each of the three persons:
The Father (Psalm 90:2)
The Son (Micah 5:2, John 1:4)
The Holy Spirit (Hebrews 9:14)
Each if the three persons is described as the Truth:
The Father (John 7:28)
The Son (Revelation 3:7)
The Holy Spirit (1 John 5:6)
Each of the three is called Lord (Luke 2:11, Romans 10:12, 2 Corinthians 3:17) each is called Everlasting (Romans 16:26, Hebrews 9:14, Revelation 22:13) each is called Almighty (Genesis 17:1, Romans 15:19, Revelation 1:8) and each is called Powerful (Jeremiah 32:17, Zechariah 4:6, Hebrews 1:3)
Can any one other than God have the Attributes of God?
In addition to having the attributes of deity, each of the three persons were involved in doing the works of deity. For example, all three were involved in the creation of the world:
The Father (Genesis 2:7, Psalm 102:25, 1 Corinthians 8:6)
The Son (John 1:3, Colossians 1;16, Hebrews 1:2)
The Holy Spirit (Genesis 1:2, Job 33:4, Psalm 104:30)
They were also involved in the incarnation and resurrection but I won't go into those verses as I think these are good for now.
Also to mention, that the pagans taught the concept of a flood that killed most of humankind and the concept of a messiah like figure named Tammuz who was allegedly resurrected. Are those concepts false just because pagans taught remotely similar accounts?
And if you still don't understand the Trinity, does it mean it's not True? I mean do you think it is possible for human beings to know everything about God? If yes, please explain Isaiah 55:8-9, Romans 11:33, and 1 Corinthians 13:12.
We should not reject a doctrine simply because we cannot fully comprehend it. Especially since it's in the Bible
RevTestament
New member
LOL. The Septuagint is the obvious "corrupter" here. I don't need to shoot any holes in it, as it is so full of them, I don't need to look to find them.
Let's start with the fact that it doesn't even preserve the name of YHWH but uses Kurios for YHWH and Adon. The confabulations only increase from there as El Shaddai gets translated as the Almighty God when that is really El Gibbor causing the creeds to errantly call the Son the Father. El Shaddai means more like the God who weans from the breast. Jesus alluded to being El Shaddai when He said before Abraham, I am.
Very much untrue. It is confirmed by the Isaiah scroll of the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Peshitta, which although somewhat later in time, is still older than the Masoretic text. The Targums also confirm the masoretic text that YHWH Elohim was speaking, and they are older than the Septuagint, although they do change some of the text.
Sorry, the Septuagint stands alone in its perverse "translation."
Jesus said not one jot or tittle(yod) would fall from the law until all is fulfilled. That doesn't mean the masoretic text is perfect, but it is the intended preservation of the law.
It is an obvious corruption from Jews who had feelings such as yourself. What motives would masoretes have for inserting YHWH there? How is that different from all the other places Elohim is used alone?
It does not appear that you fully understood my point by how you have replied. How does the DSS Isaiah Scroll prove what should have been in the original text of Genesis 3:22? Does the DSS Isaiah Scroll quote Genesis 3:22? If so please post a link or info or something because I would love to see such evidence, ("LOL" as you say :chuckle
. In fact please provide at least some documentary evidence for anything at all which you have posted. I quoted my sources for my point which only concerns the text of Genesis 3:22. My point had nothing to do with whether or not the Tetragrammaton is found in the Septuagint. I only spoke in terms of the Tetragrammaton likely having been inserted into the Masoretic Text of Genesis 3:22 but I never said that it was not already in Genesis 3:21 or Genesis 3:23.
Jesus said the Father is greater than he and Jesus would know. You can believe him or believe men.
oatmeal
Well-known member
What does that mean?
Who in scripture believes in the trinity?
Peter did not. Acts 2:22
Paul did not. I Timothy 2:5
John did not. I John 4:1-3 , II John 1:7
Jesus did not. John 10:34-36
God does not believe in a trinity. Deuteronomy 6:4
Jesus was fully God and fully man.
John 5:18, "For this cause therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God."
John 8:24, "I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you shall die in your sins."
Note: In the Greek, "He" is not there. He said "I AM." Which is the name God told Moses in Exodus 3:14, "And God said to Moses, 'I AM WHO I AM'; and He said, Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you.’"
John 20:28, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
Phil. 2:5-8, "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
In His humanity He was subservient to the Father. That is all. Scripture is clear. One God. And The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are ALL called God. ALL have the attributes of a God. And ALL do the works of God. It's not three gods, but ONE God. Three persons who are co-equal in nature and essence as God.
Immortality is a characteristic of God. Do you believe Jesus was immortal?
truthjourney
New member
Jesus said that the Father is his Father and our Father, his God and our God. That's good enough for me.
John 4:23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Rom. 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom. 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Cor. 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,...
2 Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forevermore, knows that I lie not....
Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph. 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Eph. 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col. 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,...
1 Thess. 3:11 Now God himself even our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
2 Thess. 2:16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,...
1 Tim. 1:2 To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,...
2 Tim. 1:2 To Timothy, my dear son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Titus 1:4 To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
1 Pet. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,..
2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Rev. 3:12 He that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
John 4:23 But the hour comes, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeks such to worship him.
John 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 20:17 Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Rom. 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Rom. 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 1:3 Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.
2 Cor. 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort,...
2 Cor. 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forevermore, knows that I lie not....
Eph. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
Eph. 1:17 I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better.
Eph. 6:23 Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col. 1:3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you,...
1 Thess. 3:11 Now God himself even our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
2 Thess. 2:16 May our Lord Jesus Christ himself and God our Father, who loved us and by his grace gave us eternal encouragement and good hope,...
1 Tim. 1:2 To Timothy my true son in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,...
2 Tim. 1:2 To Timothy, my dear son: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
Titus 1:4 To Titus, my true son in our common faith: Grace and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.
1 Pet. 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to his abundant mercy has begotten us again unto a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,..
2 John 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, and peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Rev. 3:12 He that overcomes will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
Last edited:
CherubRam
New member
If it was true that the disciples worshipped Yahshua, then they would have all been put to death immediately. The disciples were not engaged in elohiym, or Messiah worship. Such a thing was punishable by death according to the law. Messiah worship is a late addition to scriptures by the Catholics.
- Status