If you don't believe in the trinity...
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RevTestament
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Thomas knew no creeds, no doctrine of the trinity, and he didn't seem to have a problem with it.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
John 20:28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God.
csuguy
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A bold assertion. Show where the scriptures state that one must believe the Trinity to be a true Christian. To the contrary, the scriptures don't even teach the Trinity - let alone that is salvific - and much of the scriptures conflict with such a view. For instance:
As Jesus himself says: the Father is greater. The Son was given all power and authority by God and he will also be subjected to God. Nor does the Son know when the end will come, but only the Father. For there is but one true God, the Father, and one mediator between men and God, the man Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 15:20-28 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 21 For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, so also in [h]Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ’s at His coming, 24 then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
As Jesus himself says: the Father is greater. The Son was given all power and authority by God and he will also be subjected to God. Nor does the Son know when the end will come, but only the Father. For there is but one true God, the Father, and one mediator between men and God, the man Jesus Christ.
keypurr
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I don't, the Father is my only God. Jesus is an El, not the most high.
Is that what Jesus said?
Zeke
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Which wouldn't mean some false deity outside yourself, 1Cor 3:16, Ephesians 2:22, Luke 17:20-21 the spiritual motif/kingdom of God is within us. The traditional focus is on the kingdom of flesh, the outward mans/slaves god of bondage, the historical version is the one of this kingdom which is why any outward deity is a false one.
RevTestament
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El Shaddai to be exact - a fact Orthodoxy has confounded.
You've picked up some pointers.
So is Jesus YHWH Elohim, and the Father YHWH Elohim? Are they one?
RevTestament
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Is Jesus before the Father? He never said so. Isa 42 says He was the servant of the Father, like unto His other prophets, but the only inheritor who would receive the glory of the Father.
RevTestament
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Dan Emanuel
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keypurr
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YHWH is the name of the Father, not Y'shua.
One in purpose as Jesus does the will of his God.
RevTestament
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So who is this speaking here Keypurr?
Isaiah 26: 4 Trust ye in the Lord for ever: for in the Lord Jehovah is everlasting strength:
19 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.
and here:
Gen 3:22 ¶And YHWH Elohim said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
keypurr
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RevTestament
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So are you saying as YHWH, the Father is telling them they will arise together with "my dead body?"
The plural there is genuine - the whole context is plural - "as one of us." In other words Jahoshua(Jesus in the Greek) is speaking as one JHWH Elohim as well as the Father.
If only the Father can be YHWH, who is this?:
Jeremiah 23:6 In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, YHWH Our Righteousness.
and this?
Jeremiah 33:16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YHWH our righteousness.
keypurr
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Friend, you ask good questions but understand that I am just starting to see the differences between the Greek and Hebrew.
From what I understand YHWH is the name of the Father. Elohim is more deversified in its meaning. It's been a long time that I gave a serious look at the OT.
What is JHWH? Elohim can mean God, or a god or even a being with a special purpose. At least that what I have read. So that in itself causes confusion, at least to me friend. But I do not give up easily.
Dan Emanuel
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You've got to be 1 of the very most saintly heretic's the Church has ever had the pleasure of knowing. You're journey of discovery is done with love, but I caution you that it is done with a stubbornness that I know you already confess, but I'm not sure that you really know what your confessing.
I like you and I'm rooting for you. I pray to Mary for you.
DJ
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RevTestament
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Well Keypurr, I am glad you are starting to try.
I do not fault you in this as I believe the Greek NT kind of drops the issue unfortunately. My personal belief is that the state church of Constantine and later Roman emperors may have destroyed earlier non-Greek manuscripts, and generally followed the practice of the Septuagint which replaced YHWH with the Koine Greek, Kurios, which was a generic Greek word for lord or master. I believe the Jews were even responsible for this because of their belief at the time that YHWH was too holy to pronounce or transcribe into other languages. The Greek Kurios is actually the equivalent of the Hebrew adon, or lord. YHWH simply did not get transcribed into Greek or if it did it got destroyed. I have actually found some references from Jewish scribes at the time who said they destroyed any Greek manuscripts they found which did this.
It is one of His names, but the teaching that only the Father is YHWH is a Jewish one. Posters like Elia and Ben Masada regular post this teaching here at TOL. What the Tanakh actually says tho is different, as I am showing to you.
I am not criticizing you Keypurr, but inviting you to look. I don't think one can get an accurate picture of God solely from the Greek NT. The Syriac Peshitta version of the NT does use "Marya" for Jesus which is essentially the Aramaic shorthand for "YHWH." Later books introduced into the Peshitta however, don't seem to use it for YHWH as consistently, but it seems to get confounded with the generic lord at times.
The English translations of the Bible tend to follow the Greek practice of using a generic "LORD" for YHWH, thus not relaying the meaning of the name at all, but I pose it is important to understanding "God" since God seems to have a practice of using a name relating what He is being for the people.
It has become very confused to people friend, which is why I bring it up. Probably the best Hebrew equivalent to the English "God" is El which roughly means "the power." English is a Saxon language. Saxons were Teutons who conquered the western Roman empire. The Teuton word for "God" was "Gott." The Goths meant basically the "people of God." Roman records show they came from the East, and they are on record in the third century as giving Rome trouble in what is now Turkey, and was then the Eastern Roman Empire or later the Byzantine Empire (after the West fell to the Teutons). I believe they came from Parthia, which was basically the land of Babylon and where the 10 tribes ended up after spreading a little from Assyria ie Turkey.
The plural of El is Elim, and actually appears in the Bible in the Hebrew transliteration from Aramaic Daniel.
The plural of Eloah is Elohim. Eloah is not widely used in the Bible, but is used of God primarily when speaking of being the stone of Israel or the Rock of our Salvation in the OT ie Tanakh. Thus, Elohim is not the same as El at all. I believe it means something akin to the family of stone/immovable force. This explains why He says things like I am an El of Elohim or the God of gods in Deuteronomy.
YHWH is not as clear. Individually, the letters can mean Behold the hand, behold the nail. The small yod letter being peg or nail. The word it forms means something like I breathe, or I exist or from the earliest Hebrew idea, I have breath - I live. "I am" is another rendering. Thus in the OT where God says "I am the LORD your God, or transliterated I am YWHW your Elohim, He is saying something like I am the breath, life, word of your family of stone/immovable force - over and over again in the Bible. I realize this will sound very new to you, but I am happy to discuss this with you to whatever length you like.
Understanding these types of things has really helped me "demystify" God.
RevTestament
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He is an honest searcher.
Why Mary?
John 14:13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.
Nothing there about praying to Mary or even in her name. Nowhere in the Bible at all...
I believe He can pray to Jesus as to whether He is YHWH - He showed so up on the tree...
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