How many people actually caught measles from the vaccination?

CabinetMaker

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Irrelevant. It debunks the hit piece you posted and proves that Amy Parker is not a real person. :)
As I said, it doesn't matter whether Amy is a real person or not. The FACTS remain unchanged. If you are not vaccinated and you are exposed to the disease you have a 90% chance of getting infected. An opinion piece that attempts to personalize the effects of being sick with one of these diseases does not change the facts regarding infection rates. You can continue to hide behind the question of authenticity of a blog post but it doesn't help your case. Vaccines work. They are not perfect and they are not without risk. Based on what I have seen, I would much rather have my children vaccinated than not.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
...people who are not vaccinated are nine times more likely to get sick than those who are vaccinated. Simple fact. Deal with it.

Your "fact" is easily refuted.

Canadian study finds flu shot could increase risk of getting sick

The study states, ” In particular VE (vaccine effectiveness) against influenza A (H3N2) among those who received the 2014/2015 influenza vaccine without prior vaccination in 2013/14 was higher (43%) than among participants who were vaccinated with the same A (H3N2) vaccine component in both 2013/14 and 2014/15 (- 15 %)
 

Daedalean's_Sun

New member
Irrelevant. It debunks the hit piece you posted and proves that Amy Parker is not a real person. :)

It does? How does it do that? Did the author confess to making it all up? Did someone find the real Amy Parker? At best it points out some inconsistencies in the story, that's about it. This hardly proves that Amy Parker is a fictional person. Though I don't deny the possibility.

Nevertheless, as I have pointed out before anecdote is by far the weakest form of evidence.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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resodko

BANNED
Banned
shots are shots


jenny mccarthy sez that just hearing about flu shots can give you the measles

i heard it on oprah!
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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There are more accounts of life for the unvaccinated:

Here

And here

Keep in mind that these are not anecdotal evidence for or against vaccination, they are the stories of people who were affected by diseases that they were not vaccinated against. Your choice to not vaccinate can effect the lives of those around you in ways you do not anticipate. If your child gets sick, they will suffer.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
SO you think that one fabricated story means that nobody who is not vaccinated never gets sick?

Of course not, and I've said nothing that should cause you to ask.

Rather and odd conclusion given ...

Not my conclusion; you're assumption, scrambling to make up for your fumble with the fictitious Amy Parker story.

... we know that the rate of measles cases dropped significantly when a vaccine was introduced.

Correlation does not mean causation. Some of us also know that measles incidence and death were declining prior to the vaccine. The dramatic drop in measles from the peak in 1940 to post-vaccine-era-like levels in 1945 was not achieved by vaccination but through full employment and publicly funded nutrition programs. Coincidental with the introduction of the measles vaccine there was a war on poverty going on in the U.S. To think food stamps would not have effect on measles incidence is to close one's eyes to the facts of history, how measles was brought to post-vaccine levels without vaccination.

There's is also another way to look at this that you obviously haven't considered. Since the introduction of the measles vaccine, cases of measles virus infection have sky-rocketed. Why? A measles vaccine gives a person a measles infection. They call measles infection with one strain a vaccine, and call infection with another strain of the same virus "measles." Whoever is given the MMR is being given a measles infection and can develop the same complications as a wild measles infection. Furthermore, consensus of scientists is that an attenuated virus can become virulent after vaccination.

We know that the vast majority of people infected at Disneyland were not vaccinated.

That's hardly as interesting as the fact several were vaccinated.

We know that people who get measles get really sick and can be left with life changing consequences.

We know from adverse events reporting that people who are infected with measles virus through vaccination get really sick and can be left with life changing consequences.

One fabricated blog post, and I do not know if that one was or was not,

It was obviously fabricated, and I posted a link to a good deconstruction and debunking of the post (some of it I posted).

...does not change the facts that people who are not vaccinated are nine times more likely to get the disease.

If you get the measles vaccine you are nine times more likely to get a measles infection. Your "fact" relies on a twisted definition of "the disease."

And when they do get it, they are much more likely to have a more sever from of the disease than those who were vaccinated and still get the disease.

Nah. You've just been brainwashed to believe that, so you would intentionally get your child infected with a strain of measles they can sell you and claim the measles infection it causes isn't "measles."

All the science I have seen, all the medical reports I have looked into make it clear to me, vaccination offers my children far more benefits that greatly outweigh the risks associated with vaccines.

I come to a different conclusion and cannot justify intentionally infecting my child (two or more times) with one strain of measles virus that can cause complications and death in order to prevent the slight chance of being infected with another strain of measles virus that can cause complications and death. Frankly, the whole idea strikes me as asinine and dangerous.

And I have looked into it. There are a lot of shots to give kids when they are young and I was curious about how safe they were.

Okay. You looked into it and then decided to intentionally give your healthy child a measles infection. Now you are legally allowed to claim your child has never had a measles infection even though you intentionally gave her a measles infection through vaccination.

If you don't want to vaccinate, don't.

That's all I want, the right to informed consent and the right to refuse consent. Some people want medical tyranny. They want to force my children to get a measles infection despite the risks.

Do not complain if your kid gets terribly terribly sick because of your decision.

If your child is injured by a vaccine and becomes terribly sick because of your decision, will you complain to the vaccine injury court or seek compensation?
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Flu. Can you find any studies for diseases Measles or Mumps or Rubella or Polio?

See how you just dismiss one clear refutation of your general claim about vaccines? I picked the most deadly virus out of the lot and that's not good enough for you to concede you are mistaken when you made the claim.

I know from personal experiance the a flu shot can make you sick.

Did you report it to your doctor as an adverse event?

On the other hand, I never got Measles or Mumps or Rubella or Polio or Chicken Pox.

If you received the MMR, you did in fact intentionally receive a measles, mumps and rubella infection.

As for facts, here is some reading material for you if you are honestly interested in educating yourself.

What claim are you trying to support and what is the specific statement that supports it?
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
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Of course not, and I've said nothing that should cause you to ask.
Its in your tone.



Not my conclusion; you're assumption, scrambling to make up for your fumble with the fictitious Amy Parker story.
It was not a fumble, it was a statement about how life with preventable diseases is. IT was representative and I think people should think about that when deciding to vaccinate their kids or not.



Correlation does not mean causation.
In this case, the vaccine is actually causation. Look at those graphs you make claims about. Look at how jagged they are prior to 1968 and how near they are to zero after. Great swings before 1968, almost none after. And the one uptick after 1968 is nowhere near as bad as the lowest point prior to 1968. The science has been done and the cause is clear - vaccination works.

Some of us also know that measles incidence and death were declining prior to the vaccine. The dramatic drop in measles from the peak in 1940 to post-vaccine-era-like levels in 1945 was not achieved by vaccination but through full employment and publicly funded nutrition programs. Coincidental with the introduction of the measles vaccine there was a war on poverty going on in the U.S. To think food stamps would not have effect on measles incidence is to close one's eyes to the facts of history, how measles was brought to post-vaccine levels without vaccination.
Actually, you don't know this, there is no way for you to know this. This is just you attempting to spin things in favor of your position and it wont work. You need to compare pre 1968 and post 1968 to see what is going on.

There's is also another way to look at this that you obviously haven't considered. Since the introduction of the measles vaccine, cases of measles virus infection have sky-rocketed. Why? A measles vaccine gives a person a measles infection. They call measles infection with one strain a vaccine, and call infection with another strain of the same virus "measles." Whoever is given the MMR is being given a measles infection and can develop the same complications as a wild measles infection. Furthermore, consensus of scientists is that an attenuated virus can become virulent after vaccination.
Well, since that is an incredibly stupid way to look at it, the thought never crossed my mind. The strains of diseases used to create vaccines are developed very carefully so that they are not the virulent forms that make people really sick. Yes, people may feel bad for a few days after but they are not exposed to the full form of measles. See here.



That's hardly as interesting as the fact several were vaccinated.
It has long been known that the vaccine is not 100% in preventing the disease. It has also long been known that if vaccinated people do get the disease, they get a much milder form and don't suffer the most sever consequences.



We know from adverse events reporting that people who are infected with measles virus through vaccination get really sick and can be left with life changing consequences.
Yes, that can and does happen. Care to tell us are rate that happens for the vaccinated versus the non-vaccinated?



It was obviously fabricated, and I posted a link to a good deconstruction and debunking of the post (some of it I posted).
Yet it may still be an actual account. Your post deconstructed a writen article. It did not hire a private investigator to determine if this person is real or not.



If you get the measles vaccine you are nine times more likely to get a measles infection. Your "fact" relies on a twisted definition of "the disease."
Factually, you are wrong. Vaccines do not use the measles virus directly. See here. While there is a risk, there is always a risk, the viruses are rendered inactive. The body develops an immunity based on the proteins contained in the sell walls of the virus packet.



Nah. You've just been brainwashed to believe that, so you would intentionally get your child infected with a strain of measles they can sell you and claim the measles infection it causes isn't "measles."
Brainwashed in what way? Is reading the scientific research on the subject somehow brain washing?



I come to a different conclusion and cannot justify intentionally infecting my child (two or more times) with one strain of measles virus that can cause complications and death in order to prevent the slight chance of being infected with another strain of measles virus that can cause complications and death. Frankly, the whole idea strikes me as asinine and dangerous.
Fine. Leaving my children unprotected against easily prevented life threatening diseases strikes me as asinine and dangerous.



Okay. You looked into it and then decided to intentionally give your healthy child a measles infection. Now you are legally allowed to claim your child has never had a measles infection even though you intentionally gave her a measles infection through vaccination.
Since my children never got a measles infection, I can say that my children have never had measles. But then, I actually understand how a vaccine works.



That's all I want, the right to informed consent and the right to refuse consent. Some people want medical tyranny. They want to force my children to get a measles infection despite the risks.
That's fine. Frankly, i don't care if your kid is vaccinated or not as if they get sick, they wont make my kids sick. That said, I would bar your child from attending school or other functions where children with weakend immune systems that cannot be vaccinated may be present. Your right to not vaccinate your child does not give your the right let your children expose other children who are not vaccinated.



If your child is injured by a vaccine and becomes terribly sick because of your decision, will you complain to the vaccine injury court or seek compensation?
Me personally, no. I knew the risks going in and do not have a moral leg to stand on for suing the vaccine manufacturer.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
See how you just dismiss one clear refutation of your general claim about vaccines? I picked the most deadly virus out of the lot and that's not good enough for you to concede you are mistaken when you made the claim.
You may not understand this but flu is not any of the other diseases mentioned. In fact, flu is catch all term that represents several hundred different strains of the influenza virus. That is why there are different flu shots every year and why there are years where flu shots are ineffective.



Did you report it to your doctor as an adverse event?
No.



If you received the MMR, you did in fact intentionally receive a measles, mumps and rubella infection.
I did receive MMR and I did not intentionally receive an infection. I had no side effects to the shots at all. Neither did my children. Had I been injected with live virus, it would hav ebeen a whole different story.



What claim are you trying to support and what is the specific statement that supports it?
I am claiming that your knowledge of vaccination science is non-existant and the link provides a great many scholarly reports that support that claim.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
Since my children never got a measles infection, I can say that my children have never had measles. But then, I actually understand how a vaccine works.

No, it's obvious you don't.

The MMR vaccine is an immunization vaccine against measles, mumps, and rubella (also called German measles). It is a mixture of live attenuated viruses of the three diseases, administered via injection. It was first developed by Maurice Hilleman while at Merck.​

Live attenuated viruses cause an infection. That is how the vaccine works.

An attenuated vaccine is a vaccine created by reducing the virulence of a pathogen, but still keeping it viable (or "live").[1] Attenuation takes an infectious agent and alters it so that it becomes harmless or less virulent. These vaccines contrast to those produced by "killing" the virus (inactivated vaccine).​

Attenuated viruses can become virulent.

Secondary mutation can cause a reversion to virulence.​

Nothing you claimed or posted above refutes those facts. You intentionally gave your child a measles infection; that's how the MMR works. Obviously you didn't understand how the MMR worked before you intentionally had your child infected with the measles virus, exposing not only her but others to danger of measles infection.

You probably forgot about the OP. The story from a real person we've all known for years, a moderator on this forum, who claims she received a measles infection from the vaccination and then spread it to others. The attenuated viral infection she was intentionally given mutated and became virulent; Occam's razor.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
I am claiming that your knowledge of vaccination science is non-existant and the link provides a great many scholarly reports that support that claim.

Your claim is asinine. It is implausible any scholarly report would support claims about my personal knowledge of vaccination science being non-existent.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
No, it's obvious you don't.
The MMR vaccine is an immunization vaccine against measles, mumps, and rubella (also called German measles). It is a mixture of live attenuated viruses of the three diseases, administered via injection. It was first developed by Maurice Hilleman while at Merck.​
Live attenuated viruses cause an infection. That is how the vaccine works.
An attenuated vaccine is a vaccine created by reducing the virulence of a pathogen, but still keeping it viable (or "live").[1] Attenuation takes an infectious agent and alters it so that it becomes harmless or less virulent. These vaccines contrast to those produced by "killing" the virus (inactivated vaccine).​
Attenuated viruses can become virulent.
Secondary mutation can cause a reversion to virulence.​
Nothing you claimed or posted above refutes those facts. You intentionally gave your child a measles infection; that's how the MMR works. Obviously you didn't understand how the MMR worked before you intentionally had your child infected with the measles virus, exposing not only her but others to danger of measles infection.

You probably forgot about the OP. The story from a real person we've all known for years, a moderator on this forum, who claims she received a measles infection from the vaccination and then spread it to others. The attenuated viral infection she was intentionally given mutated and became virulent; Occam's razor.
Actually, one thing I posted does refute your claim that me or my daughters got an infection. That would be that neither me nor my daughters developed any infection, or any form of mumps, measles or rubella. In other words, the attenuated virus allowed our bodies to develop the anti bodies need for immunity without actually developing the disease.

I have also noted several times that the vaccine does not bestow perfect immunity nor is it completely without risk. What that means is that I have looked at the risks of getting the vaccine versus the risks of getting the disease the vaccine protects you against and the consequences of each and determined that the risks associated with the vaccine are far less risky than going without.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
I did receive MMR and I did not intentionally receive an infection.

Not true. The CDC claims you received an infection of the vaccine strain measles. The ingredient in the vaccine you received was a live virus that started replicating in your body. It was that strain of measles infection your body used to allegedly develop immunity to all other strains. You gave yourself a measles infection to hopefully prevent what you believed would be a more dangerous measles infection.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Your claim is asinine. It is implausible any scholarly report would support claims about my personal knowledge of vaccination science being non-existent.
Well you certainly have not demonstrated anything beyond impassioned opinion. That is what is in those links, scientific studies and data and analysis of this subject for years and years and years. You are not an immunologist and have given me no reason to suspect that your opinion is somehow better informed and more accurate than all the scientific data that says you are wrong.
 

CabinetMaker

Member of the 10 year club on TOL!!
Hall of Fame
Not true. The CDC claims you received an infection of the vaccine strain measles. The ingredient in the vaccine you received was a live virus that started replicating in your body. It was that strain of measles infection your body used to allegedly develop immunity to all other strains. You gave yourself a measles infection to hopefully prevent what you believed would be a more dangerous measles infection.
And yet it wasn't measles. It was only that portion of the measles virus required for the body to recognize the disease and developed antibodies for it. I never had the measles. I had a measles vaccine that works in a specific way to convey immunity without actually getting sick from measles.
 

resodko

BANNED
Banned
Not true. The CDC claims you received an infection of the vaccine strain measles. The ingredient in the vaccine you received was a live virus that started replicating in your body. It was that strain of measles infection your body used to allegedly develop immunity to all other strains. You gave yourself a measles infection to hopefully prevent what you believed would be a more dangerous measles infection.

this is why i left off with you - your ignorance is staggering :nono:
 

fzappa13

Well-known member
Time for a little water torture is appears.

In 1987 a measles outbreak was documented among a fully immunized group of children

In 1987, for example, a study published in the New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM) documented a measles outbreak that occurred in Corpus Christi, Texas, in the spring of 1985. Fourteen adolescent-age students, all of whom had been vaccinated for measles, contracted the disease despite having been injected with the MMR vaccine. Researchers noted that more than 99 percent of students at the school — basically all of them — had also been vaccinated, with more than 95 percent of them showing detectable antibodies to measles. (Ethan A. Huff, Measles Outbreak Documented Among Fully Immunized Group of Children, Natural News 15 February 2015)

http://www.globalresearch.ca/measle...ong-fully-immunized-group-of-children/5431567
 

fzappa13

Well-known member
China has measles outbreaks but 99% are vaccinated

A recent study published in PLoS titled, “Difficulties in eliminating measles and controlling rubella and mumps: a cross-sectional study of a first measles and rubella vaccination and a second measles, mumps, and rubella vaccination,” has brought to light the glaring ineffectiveness of two measles vaccines (measles–rubella (MR) or measles–mumps–rubella(MMR) ) in fulfilling their widely claimed promise of preventing outbreaks in highly vaccine compliant populations. (Sayer Ji, Why Is China Having Measles Outbreaks When 99% Are Vaccinated?, GreenMedInfo 20 September 2014)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3930734/

http://www.globalresearch.ca/why-is-china-having-measles-outbreaks-when-99-are-vaccinated/5404067
 

fzappa13

Well-known member
In a 2012 measles outbreak in Quebec (Canada) over half of the cases were in vaccinated teenagers

An investigation into an outbreak in a high school in a town that was heavily hit by the virus found that about half of the cases were in teens who had received the recommended two doses of vaccine in childhood — in other words, teens whom authorities would have expected to have been protected from the measles virus.

It’s generally assumed that the measles vaccine, when given in a two-dose schedule in early childhood, should protect against measles infection about 99 per cent of the time. So the discovery that 52 of the 98 teens who caught measles were fully vaccinated came as a shock to the researchers who conducted the investigation. (The Canadian Press, Measles among vaccinated Quebec kids questioned, CBC, October 20, 2011)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/health/measles-among-vaccinated-quebec-kids-questioned-1.1086151
 
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