How many people actually caught measles from the vaccination?

[Daedalean's_Sun]

The incidence rates plummeted dramatically several times prior to any vaccine introduction.

The decline post-vaccine fell to the lowest rate in history, and then stayed there. All previous declines had gone back up as dramatically as they fell.

Though my intent was to show the omission of pertinent data in your chart. Not surprising for Suzanne Humphries, et al.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

Correlation is not causation.

See my earlier post on this subject:

"The efficacy of the measles vaccine was first demonstrated via clinical trial under lab conditions and has been reproduced numerous times since, population level statistics have strongly corroborated these findings to the extent that not only is an increase in coverage followed by a decrease in measles cases, but decreases in coverage are followed by increase in cases. In countries where widespread vaccination campaigns began later, the drop in measles began later. Furthermore outbreaks occur not only when there is a decline in vaccination, but they occur in geographical locations where there are large concentrations of the unvaccinated. The relationship is multifaceted in such a way that it cannot be dismissed as mere correlation in the same way that Pirates-Global warming, Vaccination-Autism, or Cellular Phones-Autism are.

But even statistical analysis aside, the efficacy of the Measles Vaccine has been demonstrated via clinical trial under lab conditions, and the results have been reproduced more than once. In light of these facts, denial is not a rational response."

 

[CabinetMaker]

We vaccinated both of our daughters. Both girls are healthy and only ever suffered the normal range of colds and the occasional flu. We have never regretted the choice and it helped our daughters avoid this life while growing up.

 

[Granite]

Elo. are you a fan of typhoid and polio?

 

[elohiym]

The decline post-vaccine fell to the lowest rate in history, and then stayed there.

Correlation does not prove causation. The incidence and death rates were declining before the introduction of a vaccine. You don't know those rates wouldn't have continued to decline without the vaccine to the point we're at today.

All previous declines had gone back up as dramatically as they fell.

Not true. There was dramatic decline in incidence from 1940 to 1945 that cannot be attributed to vaccination. Incidence never reached the 1940 level again.

 

[elohiym]

Elo. are you a fan of typhoid and polio?

Do you want to discuss the people who contracted polio from the vaccine?

 

[elohiym]

See my earlier post on this subject:

"The efficacy of the measles vaccine was first demonstrated via clinical trial under lab conditions and has been reproduced numerous times since, population level statistics have strongly corroborated these findings to the extent that not only is an increase in coverage followed by a decrease in measles cases, but decreases in coverage are followed by increase in cases. In countries where widespread vaccination campaigns began later, the drop in measles began later. Furthermore outbreaks occur not only when there is a decline in vaccination, but they occur in geographical locations where there are large concentrations of the unvaccinated. The relationship is multifaceted in such a way that it cannot be dismissed as mere correlation in the same way that Pirates-Global warming, Vaccination-Autism, or Cellular Phones-Autism are.

But even statistical analysis aside, the efficacy of the Measles Vaccine has been demonstrated via clinical trial under lab conditions, and the results have been reproduced more than once. In light of these facts, denial is not a rational response."

Even if I assume all that is true, it doesn't change the fact that measles is a relatively harmless disease with a very low death rate (before the vaccine was used). The risk of measles infection and the slim chance of death is outweighed by the risk of vaccination injuries. Furthermore, there is evidence that a measles infection could be beneficial. Therefore, vaccination is not the rational response to measles.

 

[elohiym]

We vaccinated both of our daughters. Both girls are healthy and only ever suffered the normal range of colds and the occasional flu.

Is your anecdote valuable?

We have never regretted the choice and it helped our daughters avoid this life while growing up.

You believe that Amy Parker is a real person? I don't. That article could be completely fabricated. If she's real, then what exactly do you find convincing about her claims? Seems like she survived all the diseases without complications or dying, and is currently lamenting about a sexually transmitted disease she caught, worried about the slim chance of cancer. That testimony convinces you she should have been vaccinated against all those diseases she allegedly suffered and needs a Gardasil shot, too?

Got anything better than made up testimonies by made up people?

 

[CabinetMaker]

Is your anecdote valuable?

As valuable as any of yours.

You believe that Amy Parker is a real person? I don't. That article could be completely fabricated. If she's real, then what exactly do you find convincing about her claims? Seems like she survived all the diseases without complications or dying, and is currently lamenting about a sexually transmitted disease she caught, worried about the slim chance of cancer. That testimony convinces you she should have been vaccinated against all those diseases she allegedly suffered and needs a Gardasil shot, too?

Got anything better than made up testimonies by made up people?

I believe she is real. I believe that she, and others, have suffered from potentially life ending or changing diseases that are easily prevented by a simple vaccination. My daughters never had to face those worries. My daughters have had the Gardasil vaccination. After watching my wife go through cancer treatments twice, we decided that if there is a chance we can spare our daughters that torture, we would. Neither is sexually active but someday they will meet a man and fal in love and marry (I hope) and there is no way of knowing what his history is until its to late.

All anybody has at this point is anecdotal. Nobody can say with any certainty vaccines are related to autism in any way. The one study that linked them has been widely discredited. Are vaccines without risk? No. Do the risks presented by a vaccine outweigh the risks of catching the disease that the vaccine prevents? Not in my opinion. Besides, by vaccinating my children I am doing those who do not vaccinate a huge favor. Since my vaccinated kid will not get the disease, he can play with your non-vaccinated kid and you don't have to worry.

On the other hand, I can take my kids to Disney Land or other places where they will interact with people from around the world who don't vaccinate and are, in fact, sick with something like measles. My kids will come home safe with great memories. There are at least 59 families out there that cannot say the same.

Your life, you live it the way you see best, as will I. Just keep in mind, you have no right to judge those that do not share your views.

 

[The Barbarian]

Actually, He invented a pretty serviceable catch all vaccine. It's called an immune system and it does a pretty good job when we don't muck it up.

Actually, "systems." When I was in graduate school, they knew about three of them.

The most primitive, the innate immune system, is found in invertebrates and plants. We still have, it but it's overlaid with a cellular/humoral system that learns to recognize and attack specfic pathogens.

 

[elohiym]

Is your anecdote valuable?

As valuable as any of yours.

Your anecdote is less valuable than anecdotes about vaccine injuries; only the later is officially reported and compensable.

I believe she is real.

Whoever wrote that was counting on you believing she is real.

I believe that she, and others, have suffered from potentially life ending or changing diseases that are easily prevented by a simple vaccination.

She allegedly had almost all the diseases, yet did not die or suffer any rare complications of those diseases.

My daughters never had to face those worries. My daughters have had the Gardasil vaccination. After watching my wife go through cancer treatments twice, we decided that if there is a chance we can spare our daughters that torture, we would. Neither is sexually active but someday they will meet a man and fal in love and marry (I hope) and there is no way of knowing what his history is until its to late.

Uh, she could ask the guy about his past, have him tested for infections ... right?

All anybody has at this point is anecdotal.

Nah. You're just brainwashed.

Nobody can say with any certainty vaccines are related to autism in any way. The one study that linked them has been widely discredited.

Evidence of brainwashing: you've been convinced this is all about whether or not vaccines (in general) cause autism.

Are vaccines without risk? No.

That's correct. When you vaccinate you take certain risks. For example, there is a 1:3000 incidence of seizure when you get the MMR vaccine.

Do the risks presented by a vaccine outweigh the risks of catching the disease that the vaccine prevents? Not in my opinion.

I don't believe you know the odds.

Besides, by vaccinating my children I am doing those who do not vaccinate a huge favor. Since my vaccinated kid will not get the disease, he can play with your non-vaccinated kid and you don't have to worry.

I would more likely worry that your vaccinated kid will make my kid sick since your kid is the one carrying the attenuated virus.

On the other hand, I can take my kids to Disney Land or other places where they will interact with people from around the world who don't vaccinate and are, in fact, sick with something like measles. My kids will come home safe with great memories. There are at least 59 families out there that cannot say the same.

At least five people in the Disneyland incident were fully vaccinated. The vaccine failed in their case. You think it will protect your kids, but their parents probably thought the same.

Your life, you live it the way you see best, as will I.

That's all I want, but the rabid pro-any-vax nut-jobs are out in force demanding my children should be vaccinated to appease a pseudo-scientific ideology.

Just keep in mind, you have no right to judge those that do not share your views.

The article you posted seemed pretty judgemental.

 

[fzappa13]

As with so much else in life, I try to understand where things are going by mentally graphing where things were, where things are, then draw a line through the two and consider the direction indicated by this line. You know, sort of like the graphs so many here love. Start with the notion of preventing disease and draw a line through that to Bill Gates' forced sterilization and jail for those who refuse vaccine and the direction where that line goes from there does not look good ... unless you're one of the lucky few that Eugenicists like Bill think worthy to consume the planet's resources.

The only thing I see positive coming of all this is the day will inevitably come that Barbie and his friends get that bad news that, well, though they might have made the first cut ... they just missed the second.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Your anecdote is less valuable than anecdotes about vaccine injuries; only the later is officially reported and compensable.

There are actual injuries caused by vaccines and there are alleged injuries that are anecdotal. Your anicdotal evidence is no more valid than mine. Doesn't mean we don't evaluate our options in light of it.

Whoever wrote that was counting on you believing she is real.

She might be real. You don't know for sure so you assume something consistant with your preferred views and evaluate the article based on that assumption.

She allegedly had almost all the diseases, yet did not die or suffer any rare complications of those diseases.

blessings come in many ways.

Uh, she could ask the guy about his past, have him tested for infections ... right?

She could, but affairs of the heart are not known for their absolute rationality.

Nah. You're just brainwashed.

No, I just do not find your assertions convincing. I have seen the studies that prove the effectiveness of vaccinations. Your assertion that they are not safe versus the huge reduction and even elimination of diseases that we have vaccines for is fact.

Evidence of brainwashing: you've been convinced this is all about whether or not vaccines (in general) cause autism.

That would be a false assertion on your part. However, the study that linked vaccines and autism is most frequently cited as the reason for their opposition to vaccinations.

That's correct. When you vaccinate you take certain risks. For example, there is a 1:3000 incidence of seizure when you get the MMR vaccine.

There are also risks if one is allergic to eggs.

I don't believe you know the odds.

Obviously, you don't either.

I would more likely worry that your vaccinated kid will make my kid sick since your kid is the one carrying the attenuated virus.

For how long? Do you know how a vaccine actually works? Do you know the difference between a live vaccine and a dead vaccine? Once the immunity is established, the attenuated virus is destroyed by the strengthened immune system.

At least five people in the Disneyland incident were fully vaccinated. The vaccine failed in their case. You think it will protect your kids, but their parents probably thought the same.

with the vaccine, the odds of my kids being protected against the disease is pretty high, though not perfect. Without the vaccine, the odds that my child is protected against the disease is zero. It should also be noted that even if a vaccinated child does contract the disease, the likelyhood of it developing into a life threatening sickness is greatly reduced. Without the vaccine, they could die.

That's all I want, but the rabid pro-any-vax nut-jobs are out in force demanding my children should be vaccinated to appease a pseudo-scientific ideology.

Impassioned platitudes are not arguments let alone scientific. You have not one single fact that stands against 40+ years of research and testing into vaccinations.

The article you posted seemed pretty judgemental.

Cannot a person pass judgement on the quality of their own life? Cannot a person comment on the lives of others based on their own experiences? Your frequent judgments of people as godless pigs certainly indicates that you think you certainly have that right.

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

Your anecdote is less valuable than anecdotes about vaccine injuries; only the later is officially reported and compensable.

You didn't seem to take issue with the anecdote from Shagster. Your skepticism is peculiarly selective.

Whoever wrote that was counting on you believing she is real.

AH! A conspiracy is underfoot!

 

[Daedalean's_Sun]

You know, sort of like the graphs so many here love. Start with the notion of preventing disease and draw a line through that to Bill Gates' forced sterilization and jail for those who refuse vaccine and the direction where that line goes from there does not look good

 

[elohiym]

You didn't seem to take issue with the anecdote from Shagster. Your skepticism is peculiarly selective.

I was simply making the point that some people's anecdote's are valuable reports of vaccine injury, whereas trying to minimize reports of vaccine injury with personal anecdotes about not knowing anyone injured by a vaccine is not really valuable.

AH! A conspiracy is underfoot!

There are pages on the Snopes website dedicated to debunking fabricated stories about fabricated people found in emails and on webpages like the one Cabinetmaker linked to.

 

[elohiym]

It didn't take me long to find the hit piece that Cabinetmaker posted has been completely debunked.

And there you have it. A formula to write a hit piece, disguising yourself as a former member of the group you wish to attack.

ETA: There are several inconsistencies and errors in Ms. Parker’s little piece which also deserve mention.

1) UK residents in her age group were not given mumps vaccine. It wasn’t available in the UK until 1998: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/vaccinations/Pages/mmr-vaccine.aspx So it was actually the norm for British children her age to get mumps.

2) The varicella vaccine, for chicken pox, has still not been added to the NHS pediatric vaccination schedule in the UK. Virtually all children in her age group, as well as the age group of her own children, would have had chicken pox.

3) How does she know she had rubella? Rubella is considered a very mild disease, with many people having few or no symptoms. If the characteristic rash occurs, it can look like many other viruses. Doctors did not and do not test for it routinely. The only real risk is to unborn babies exposed to rubella. http://kidshealth.org/parent/infections/skin/german_measles.html

3) There is no vaccine for scarlatina, which is a common form of strep infection.

4) There is no vaccine for tonsillitis.

5) There is no vaccine for viral meningitis.

6) I can find no reports that Queen Elizabeth I died of quinsy, as Ms. Parker claims. All historians suggest that she died of either arsenic poisoning from the white arsenic in her makeup or of old age (she was nearly 70 years old, which is about twice the expected life span for a woman in 1605 when she died). There are a few speculation of cancer. No mention of quinsy. http://www.elizabethan-era.org.uk/death-of-queen-elizabeth-i.htm

7) Ms. Parker reports that, in her 20’s (she’s now around 37), she “got precancerous HPV and spent 6 months of my life wondering how I was going to tell my two children under the age of 7 that mummy might have cancer before it was safely removed.” Well, first of all, HPV testing was not incorporated in the NHS’s cervical screening program until 2012. Second of all, it seems unlikely that her doctor would wait 6 months to deal with that.

8) Aspartame was not even approved in the UK until 1982. Even at that time, it was not commonly added to anything but diet sodas, which were not recommended for children anyway. She writes that her mother didn’t allow her “pop” anyway.

9) Finally, I’m left wondering, how, if her mother was “the biggest health freak around” who “lived alternative health,” how on earth did Ms. Parker receive so many antibiotics that she became resistant to them? In her own words, she “got so many illnesses which needed treatment with antibiotics that I developed a resistance to them.”

Of course Amy Parker is a fabricated person! :duh:

 

[CabinetMaker]

There are pages on the Snopes website dedicated to debunking fabricated stories about fabricated people found in emails and on webpages like the one Cabinetmaker linked to.

SO you think that one fabricated story means that nobody who is not vaccinated never gets sick? Rather and odd conclusion given we know that the rate of measles cases dropped significantly when a vaccine was introduced. We know that the vast majority of people infected at Disneyland were not vaccinated. We know that people who get measles get really sick and can be left with life changing consequences. One fabricated blog post, and I do not know if that one was or was not, does not change the facts that people who are not vaccinated are nine times more likely to get the disease. And when they do get it, they are much more likely to have a more sever from of the disease than those who were vaccinated and still get the disease.

All the science I have seen, all the medical reports I have looked into make it clear to me, vaccination offers my children far more benefits that greatly outweigh the risks associated with vaccines. And I have looked into it. There are a lot of shots to give kids when they are young and I was curious about how safe they were.

If you don't want to vaccinate, don't. Do not complain if your kid gets terribly terribly sick because of your decision.

 

[CabinetMaker]

It didn't take me long to find the hit piece that Cabinetmaker posted has been completely debunked.



Of course Amy Parker is a fabricated person! :duh:

Yet it doesn't change the fact that people who are not vaccinated are nine times more likely to get sick than those who are vaccinated. Simple fact. Deal with it.

 

[elohiym]

Yet it doesn't change the fact ...

Irrelevant. It debunks the hit piece you posted and proves that Amy Parker is not a real person.