How 2 Cor 5:19 teaches limited atonement !

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Robert Pate

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beloved57 said:
Hey, do you want to discuss the OP ? For example, the word world in 2 Cor 5:19 what does the word mean according to the OP ?
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It is not possible for you to believe that Jesus has defeated sin, death and the devil and in doing so has reconciled the whole world unto God. The reason is because you are spiritually dead.
 
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Robert Pate said:
I have given you enough light to light a city. But you like the darkness of Calvinism.
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It is my prayer that one day, Robert, you will take the admonishments from staff seriously. Starting hundreds of threads with basically the same content or theme in one thing. Ignoring those that take the time to actually interact with these new threads is another. It is rude behavior and not in keeping with the purpose of TOL: discussion. Discussion does not mean simply waving a response off and declaring you have met some imaginary burden of substantive engagement.

If you would rather not interact with certain persons, then refrain from quoting such persons in what passes for but an insulting rejoinder. Apparently, in addition to just posting articles, you also want the last word in all matters. Please place me on ignore and honestly follow the intention of the ignore feature. Do not seek to sneak in the last word polemically while refusing to engage. By so doing perhaps then you will the escape the growing attention of the management team:
Sherman said:
Robert, you diluting what you are trying to convey with this many threads on the subject. I get the impression you are trying to build your post count back up. I will start locking the threads if you keep this up. This many threads is unnecessary and redundant. A couple well managed threads is a better approach.
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Sherman said:
@Robert Pate My sole issue with you is Redundancy. You dilute your argument when you start multiple threads on the same topic. You do not see AMR or Lon doing it. They start only a few threads and they keep them well maintained. That approach builds a much stronger argument.
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As I have noted earlier, hypothetical universalism (a general ransom view of the atonement), coupled with notions that "world" means each and every person as applies to Our Lord's work in atonement, fails to comprehend the full counsel of Scripture, for example:

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

John 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 17:9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

John 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

John 18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.

Note from John 17:9 we have Our Lord plainly stating his atoning works are not for the world—each and every person—but for those He has been given by God the Father. These two groups cannot be the same, else Jesus would not have made these two distinctions. Note also from John 18:9, Jesus makes it plain that none so given to Him have been lost. We know not all are saved, hence, not all must have been given to Our Lord. Who are these so given to Him? The ones that come to Him...the believing ones (John 6:37).

As I stated in an earlier post, we must qualify Christ's dying for the world. Christ died sufficiently for all, not effectually. There is the value of Christ's blood, and the virtue of Christ's blood. Christ's blood has value enough to redeem the whole world—but the virtue of it is applied only to such as believe. You go beyond this by claiming God has ordained a hypothetical virtue for all men. Yet, Scripture plainly attests that only those God the Father has given to the Lord will not be lost to Him. We obviously know that there are persons who will not be saved. It must necessarily follow that these persons were in fact, not given to Our Lord.

The transaction, the covenant of redemption if you will, within the Godhead is being made plain from the above.
1. God gives—out of all mankind in Adam—a great multitude no man can number (Rev. 7:9) to Our Lord to redeem by His active and passive obedience.
Our Lord's work was as a propitiation: “And He is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” (1 John 2:2) Note here, the propitiation, not a potential propitiation, but rather a perfect satisfaction and reconciliation through His sacrifice. Note also, "our sins", that is the sins of those being addressed in 1 John, yet not just these persons, but also for those whom Our Lord represents, the ones given to Him by God the Father, the believing ones from among all men of every kind in the whole world. Here in 1 John, he cannot be in conflict with what he has recorded to be Our Lord's own words in his earlier Gospel which I have quoted above. Accordingly, "the whole world" in 1 John 2:2 cannot mean Jesus was a propitiation for each and every person in the world.
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2. Our Lord is sent to deliver this great multitude from their sin in Adam and their continued sinning (Genesis 3:15; Luke 22:29; Romans 8:11; Hebrews 10:5-7).
3. God the Holy Spirit applies the merit of Our Lord's work to those given to God the Son (John 1:13; John 3:5-8).
4. The ones given to Our Lord are the ones that come to the Lord (John 6:37).
The believing ones come to the Lord. These are the sheep Jesus later refers to in John 10:26. He makes it plain in that address that not all are His sheep. Each and every person is not among the sheep. Our Lord clearly states He is not going to lay down His life for those not His sheep. Is not the act of laying down of His life the warp and woof of His atonement? Indeed it is undeniable. Jesus is not atoning for those not His sheep. Therefore, Jesus' atonement was not for each and every person as you would claim. In John 10 Jesus' own statement about exactly for whom He is laying his life down (atoning for) is made clear.​

Now the means by which those given to Our Lord actually come to the Lord is a separate topic. This is a topic wrapped around the usual synergism versus monergism discussion. I leave that aside for separate discussion, if and when needed. Here I only focus upon the plain teachings above that Our Lord's atonement was not a general atonement for each and every person, rather His atonement was for a great multitude specifically given to Him by God the Father.

Robert, please do not respond seeking the last word with the usual off-handed wave offs. Rather respond only if you are willing to actually stand for a discussion on the matter at hand.

AMR
 
R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
The matter at hand is the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ of which you are in denial of. In the Gospel Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles a world of lost sinners unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. You are in total denial of the saving work of Christ that was done on behalf of fallen man. You have rejected the Gospel and have embrace the doctrine of a heretic.
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Its no secret that mans religion appeals to 2 Cor 5:19 as a proof text that the scripture teaches that Christ died for all men without exception, for it reads:

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The carnal religionist sees the word world here and automatically and carelessly assumes that it means everyone without exception. However the word world here is defined in a limited sense in that it does means:

kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.

 an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, or der.

 any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

Any divinely ordered collection of particulars in the divine scheme of things is a World !

The word particulars is defined:

of or relating to a single or specific person, thing,group, class, occasion, etc., rather than to othersor all; special rather than general:

Now with this in mind, the world of 2 Cor 5:19 is particular in that none of its citizens have their sins imputed to them, which is plainly stated of them here:

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them"


Which Act of God constitutes this World as a forgiven world, because we read in another place the consequence of non imputation of sin by God is this:

Rom 4:7-8

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

That world of particular individuals in 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven world whose sins are covered, and God will not charge them with their sins, not ever !



Now we know this cant apply to all without exception because there are individuals God will remember their sins against them, so they are still being charged with them, here Rev 18:4-5

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

Now these who shall have their sins remembered by God, cannot be of the World of 2 Cor 5:19, which means and confirms that the World in that scripture supports limited atonement, the reconciled world is limited to certain particulars !
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Thought you might want a few more verses with the word "world" translated from kosmos.

Evidently, the kosmos is not friendly toward God and truth.

I John 3:1

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

I John 2:15-17

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I John 4:4-5

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

I John 5:4-5

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
 
Lon

Lon

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
The matter at hand is the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ of which you are in denial of. In the Gospel Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles a world of lost sinners unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. You are in total denial of the saving work of Christ that was done on behalf of fallen man. You have rejected the Gospel and have embrace the doctrine of a heretic.
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Look:
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
2Co 5:18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation;
2Co 5:19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.
2Co 5:20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
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Question: If Christ reconciled, why do 'we' need to "be reconciled to God?"

What is universal and what isn't? :think: Make sure it is clear, none of us wants to be a universalist where nobody beseeches that nonChristians be reconciled to God...
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
oatmeal said:
Thought you might want a few more verses with the word "world" translated from kosmos.

Evidently, the kosmos is not friendly toward God and truth.

I John 3:1

Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.

I John 2:15-17

Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

I John 4:4-5

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

I John 5:4-5

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.
5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
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Do you want to discuss the points I made with scripture ?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
The matter at hand is the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ of which you are in denial of. In the Gospel Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles a world of lost sinners unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19. You are in total denial of the saving work of Christ that was done on behalf of fallen man. You have rejected the Gospel and have embrace the doctrine of a heretic.
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Do you want to discuss the points I made ? Did you see the definition of the word world i presented ?
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Those in the world of 2 Cor 5:19 dont have sin charged to them, so they are totally Justified from sin. Now does that apply to all without exception ? Of course not. Those in Rev 18:4-5 have their sins charged to them and God remembers their sins !
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
beloved57 said:
Those in the world of 2 Cor 5:19 dont have sin charged to them, so they are totally Justified from sin. Now does that apply to all without exception ? Of course not. Those in Rev 18:4-5 have their sins charged to them and God remembers their sins !
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Precisely! The scriptures present two distinct worlds of mankind:

A world of mankind consisting of Christ's Sheep John 10:11, 15, Chosen in Him to have forgiveness / remission of sins Eph. 1:4-7; being reconciled to God while enemies Rom. 5:10, and so Eternally Justified in Him their Surety Heb. 7:22; 13:20 as the result of non imputation of sin Rom. 4:6-8 before the foundation of the world, based solely upon His Blood Work on ther behalf Rom. 5:9; Rev. 13:8, thus for them exclusively, God has been propitiated according to His Law and Justice.

But those of the world in Rev. 18:4-5, the cursed goats, they were preappointed by God to remain in sin and under His Wrath permanently Mat. 25:41.
 
beloved57

beloved57

Well-known member
Nanja said:
Precisely! The scriptures present two distinct worlds of mankind:

A world of mankind consisting of Christ's Sheep John 10:11, 15, Chosen in Him to have forgiveness / remission of sins Eph. 1:4-7; being reconciled to God while enemies Rom. 5:10, and so Eternally Justified in Him their Surety Heb. 7:22; 13:20 as the result of non imputation of sin Rom. 4:6-8 before the foundation of the world, based solely upon His Blood Work on ther behalf Rom. 5:9; Rev. 13:8, thus for them exclusively, God has been propitiated according to His Law and Justice.

But those of the world in Rev. 18:4-5, the cursed goats, they were preappointed by God to remain in sin and under His Wrath permanently Mat. 25:41.
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Amen Sister!

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R

Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Lon said:
Look:
Question: If Christ reconciled, why do 'we' need to "be reconciled to God?"

What is universal and what isn't? :think: Make sure it is clear, none of us wants to be a universalist where nobody beseeches that nonChristians be reconciled to God...
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Reconciliation has been provided for everyone by the doing and the dying of Jesus. God has reconciled the whole world unto himself, But nothing, absolutely nothing is yours until it is received by faith. It is offered to everyone as a free gift from God, Ephesians 2:8.
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
Pate
But nothing, absolutely nothing is yours until it is received by faith.
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Those in the flesh, carnally minded, unregenerate; which is everyone by nature who hasn't been given the Spirit in New Birth, they're incapable of doing anything that pleases God, and that includes receiving anything from Him by their own faith [a work of the mind, Gr.ergon], which has no spiritual benefit whatsoever. For the only Faith that pleases God was never an "offer", but is a Fruit of the Spirit GIVEN John 3:27 in New Birth Gal. 5:22 to all God's Elect in Christ: The World He reconciled to Himself 2 Cor. 5:19!

Rom. 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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Robert Pate

Well-known member
Banned
Nanja said:
Pate



Those in the flesh, carnally minded, unregenerate; which is everyone by nature who hasn't been given the Spirit in New Birth, they're incapable of doing anything that pleases God, and that includes receiving anything from Him by their own faith [a work of the mind, Gr.ergon], which has no spiritual benefit whatsoever. For the only Faith that pleases God was never an "offer", but is a Fruit of the Spirit GIVEN John 3:27 in New Birth Gal. 5:22 to all God's Elect in Christ: The World He reconciled to Himself 2 Cor. 5:19!

Rom. 8:7-8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
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You are about as natural as they come. You have no idea of what God has accomplished in Jesus Christ.
 
Nanja

Nanja

Well-known member
Robert Pate said:
You are about as natural as they come. You have no idea of what God has accomplished in Jesus Christ.
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Scripture Truth isn't determined by the perverted understanding of a natural man such as yourself, but solely by the scriptures 2 Tim. 3:16.

And Rom. 8:8 declares that the natural man cannot please God, nor can he receive the things God Rom. 8:8; 1 Cor. 2:14. Period.

You are not born of God therefore you cannot "hear" [comprehend, understand] God's Words John 8:43, 47.

1 Cor. 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
 
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