How 2 Cor 5:19 teaches limited atonement !

[Right Divider]

Specifically, we may or may not agree on 'who' is reconciled. It depends on 'if' God has perfect foreknowledge (I believe He does Jeremiah 1:5) and 'how' that foreknowledge is defined ("definite or provisional"). I wholly believe scripture gives every indication it is definite (again Jeremiah 1:5 is more than a strong indicator for me and I personally, cannot but believe so, it is so substantial but somewhat deduced at times from scripture).

In a nutshell, I'm arguing whether or not this stance is unbiblical. Regardless what Robert Pate might assert, we cannot pit scripture against scripture and we are incredibly remise for arguing over it imho. I believe a lot of Robert's fights are sin at worst, much less effective at best, because of it. Clearly we are NEVER to pit scripture against scripture but 'reconcile' honestly, scripture with scripture. I honestly believe Robert Pate is not honest. He is fighting against God with God. All Christian believers are trying to simply embrace scripture. Imho, we are better served trying to understand the other guy. I know the weakness of the Calvinist position. I never argue with a MADist. He/she has a lot of good points that I value. I need to hear what scriptures they are embracing and help, if I can (and as hopefully they for me), see any other important scriptures. Honestly, it is all I am concerned about. The pettiness of a one-sided argument where it is obvious the other doesn't know his/her Bible as well as I do, is pointless and really just distaste and emoting rather than God-honoring. It is a personality conflict. Pate doesn't seem to understand that. Some Calvinists are as bad as Robert Pate. I'm as against that as I am against Robert's stance as well. I just don't see it as good discussion. God is sovereign over our theology. We need to be seeking Him. As we do so, we WILL be drawn closer and closer into right theology. I'm convinced of it. Therefore, a fight over it on TOL can be iron against iron, but we can also do so more openly and congenially with perhaps (I think definitely) more and better effect.

Lon, I appreciate your posts generally... but this post did not address what I said (that, supposedly you were replying to).

Reconciliation is a TWO-WAY operation.

 

[Lon]

Lon, I appreciate your posts generally... but this post did not address what I said (that, supposedly you were replying to).

Reconciliation is a TWO-WAY operation.

Mostly agreement, I'd like to think, but my thoughts regarding it more in depth: I had originally posted longer with scriptures but I trimmed and left off the pertinent verses I had in mind: In a nutshell, this: 1 Corinthians 4:7 Colossians 1:17 John 15:5 - While I believe we can meet God on His terms, it is grace that allows us to do so, not autonomy, per say. It is an odd thing, because the very thing that made estranged then (autonomy and a choice to reconcile) is the very thing appealed to negate for the reconciliation. IOW, we have to negate the thing we obtained by sin, in order to be reconciled to God Luke 22:42 . In a nutshell, I believe 'you will be like God knowing good and evil' is autonomy. IOW, the reason Adam and Eve were perfect was specifically because they DIDN'T have autonomy. The lie in the Garden took it, grasped it. John 15:5 is a reminder: Luke 22:41; 9:23. Look at the argument in Romans 9 as well: Romans 9:14,15 This was a hard passage for me, prior to embracing it. Self always gets in the way and self thinks he/she has to 'choose' for 'real love' to exist. I disagree and please: I have to - real love was BEFORE the Fall when Adam and Eve didn't have freewill. Freewill is more associated with 'autonomy' from God which, as you have read scriptures with me, insists is wrong. John 15:7 Our every instruction is to neglect and ignore 'our' will. Independence is as American as apple pie, but we have to rightly assess God's original intent. So many are fully threatened by 'automaton' or 'robot.' Job wasn't Job 13:15. John the Baptist wasn't John 3:30. The Lord Jesus Christ, wrestling with autonomy in the flesh wasn't Luke 22:42

All of this isn't easy theology. I agree 'reconciliation' by definition is between two parties and thus, our autonomy, our self awareness, individuality, responsibility, and etc. is on a level that it 'takes two' as you say. Marriage is a 'mystery' Paul tells us in Ephesians 5:32 of this same 'autonomy' vs one-ness. It is the same one-ness, Paul compares, to that of Christ and His church as two separate entities, yet One entity when joined together. Thus, I believe, and I think with you, that reconciliation is two becoming one, yet I know also the desire has to be of God, because autonomous people do not naturally want to lose autonomy. Using marriage again, as an analogy, it is the thing the causes pre-wedding night jitters. We have a hard time losing self.

 

[glorydaz]

2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.