How 2 Cor 5:19 teaches limited atonement !

[beloved57]

The World in 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have its sins charged to them, so it cant mean everyone without exception as its falsely claimed by many !

Lets read

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

 

[beloved57]

The individuals that compose the world of 2 Cor 5:19 will eventually be subjectively reconciled to God, their natural enmity and being enemies in their minds by wicked works as per Col 1:21

²¹ And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled


The Spirit of Christ gives these reconciled individuals repentant hearts and minds causing them to submit to God in Christ. If this werent true then 2 Cor 5:19 would be a lie ! And so they come to God through Christ Heb 7:25

²⁵ Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

 

[Nanja]

beloved57

The World in 2 Cor 5:19 doesnt have its sins charged to them, so it cant mean everyone without exception as its falsely claimed by many !

Lets read

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

The individuals that compose the world of 2 Cor 5:19 will eventually be subjectively reconciled to God, their natural enmity and being enemies in their minds by wicked works as per Col 1:21

²¹ And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled


The Spirit of Christ gives these reconciled individuals repentant hearts and minds causing them to submit to God in Christ. If this werent true then 2 Cor 5:19 would be a lie ! And so they come to God through Christ Heb 7:25

²⁵ Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

Scripture speaks of a reconciled World 2 Cor. 5:19:

But also of a World that is condemned 1 Cor. 11:32.


Two different Worlds:

1. A forgiven World whose sins were not imputed / charged to them Ps. 32:1-2 but to Christ Jesus their Covenant Head and Surety Heb. 7:22 from Everlasting Is. 53:6.

2. A condemned / unrighteous World:

1 Cor. 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev. 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Yes...2 Cor. 5:19 clearly teaches Limited Atonement !

 

[beloved57]

beloved57









Scripture speaks of a reconciled World 2 Cor. 5:19:

But also of a World that is condemned 1 Cor. 11:32.


Two different Worlds:

1. A forgiven World whose sins were not imputed / charged to them Ps. 32:1-2 but to Christ Jesus their Covenant Head and Surety Heb. 7:22 from Everlasting Is. 53:6.

2. A condemned / unrighteous World:

1 Cor. 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Rev. 21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Yes...2 Cor. 5:19 clearly teaches Limited Atonement !

Thank you for your timely words. May God continue to bless you!

 

[Nanja]

Thank you for your timely words. May God continue to bless you!

YW my Brother, may God continue to bless You too ! ☺

 

[beloved57]

Be ye reconciled to God !

Now who is Paul speaking to here ? Is he speaking to unreconciled sinners ? The answer is NO, in fact those he is speaking to have already by

Christ been reconciled to God, thats seen in 2 Cor 5:19

¹⁹ To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So the ones Paul is speaking to in 2 Cor 5:20

²⁰ Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Are those truthfully already reconciled, so what Paul is doing by the word of reconciliation he is preaching, which is the Gospel, the Power of God unto salvation Rom 1:16 he's bringing the already reconciled to Faith in the declared word of God, for Faith cometh by hearing Rom 10:17

What most neglect to tell us about "be ye reconciled to God" is that its an imperative passive voice, meaning that God through the Gospel is not only commanding reconciliation to Him by the Word, but actually brings about the reconciliation of their minds and hearts to Gods word and the obedience of Faith !

For those who dont know the passive voice is defined:

The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, "The boy was hit by the ball," the boy receives the action.

The subjects of the imperative be ye reconciled to God are recipients of the action of the word of reconciliation in the power of the Spirit having their minds and hearts brought to Faith !

 

[Nanja]

Be ye reconciled to God !

Now who is Paul speaking to here ? Is he speaking to unreconciled sinners ? The answer is NO, in fact those he is speaking to have already by

Christ been reconciled to God, thats seen in 2 Cor 5:19

¹⁹ To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

And Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

So the ones Paul is speaking to in 2 Cor 5:20

²⁰ Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Are those truthfully already reconciled, so what Paul is doing by the word of reconciliation he is preaching, which is the Gospel, the Power of God unto salvation Rom 1:16 he's bringing the already reconciled to Faith in the declared word of God, for Faith cometh by hearing Rom 10:17

What most neglect to tell us about "be ye reconciled to God" is that its an imperative passive voice, meaning that God through the Gospel is not only commanding reconciliation to Him by the Word, but actually brings about the reconciliation of their minds and hearts to Gods word and the obedience of Faith !

For those who dont know the passive voice is defined:

The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action. E.g., in the sentence, "The boy was hit by the ball," the boy receives the action.

The subjects of the imperative be ye reconciled to God are recipients of the action of the word of reconciliation in the power of the Spirit having their minds and hearts brought to Faith !

Amen Brother !

Therefore the "World" [kosmos] that God was in Christ reconciling to Himself 2 Cor. 5:19 was limited exclusively to the portion of mankind that was Chosen in union with Christ to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7.

So His death was already applied to them passively Heb. 7:22; Is. 53:5; Rom. 5:9, while being God's enemies and unbelievers Rom. 5:10, even from Everlasting; before they had any knowledge of it, and proof of their reconciliation before God is brought to Light by Faith Gal. 5:22 given by the Spirit in New Birth by which they are given the ability to hear Prov. 20:12 the Gospel of the Grace of God 2 Tim. 1:8-10.


But also, there remains an unreconciled world [kosmos]of people which 2 Cor. 5:20 can never apply to. For they shall go into the second death to bear the punishment for their own sins Rev. 21:8; Rom. 6:23a.

 

[beloved57]

Amen Brother !

Therefore the "World" [kosmos] that God was in Christ reconciling to Himself 2 Cor. 5:19 was limited exclusively to the portion of mankind that was Chosen in union with Christ to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7.

So His death was already applied to them passively Heb. 7:22; Is. 53:5; Rom. 5:9, while being God's enemies and unbelievers Rom. 5:10, even from Everlasting; before they had any knowledge of it, and proof of their reconciliation before God is brought to Light by Faith Gal. 5:22 given by the Spirit in New Birth by which they are given the ability to hear Prov. 20:12 the Gospel of the Grace of God 2 Tim. 1:8-10.


But also, there remains an unreconciled world [kosmos]of people which 2 Cor. 5:20 can never apply to. For they shall go into the second death to bear the punishment for their own sins Rev. 21:8; Rom. 6:23a.

Absolutely!

 

[beloved57]

The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is limited to those who have been objectively reconciled to God by His death. Thats why he tells believers that they had been [past tense] reconciled to God by Christs death, even when they themselves were active enemies Rom 5:10

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Same thing is implied 2 Cor 5:18

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Now this objective reconciliation is once and for all by the death of Jesus Christ for all whom He died.

So the present tense reconciliation given in Vs 19 of 2 nd Cor 5 doesnt go beyond those who have been objectively reconciled by His death, which of them it entitles to non imputation of sin, sin not being laid to their charge. John Gill makes a solid comment here:

To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself,.... This expresses and explains the subject matter of the ministration of the Gospel, especially that part of it which concerns our reconciliation with God; and declares the scheme, the author, the subjects, the way, and means, and consequence of it. The phrase, "in Christ", may be either joined with the word "God", as in our version, "God was in Christ reconciling"; that is, he was in Christ drawing the scheme, fixing the method of reconciliation; his thoughts were employed about it, which were thoughts of peace; he called a council of peace, and entered into a covenant of peace with Christ, who was appointed and agreed to, to be the peacemaker. Or with the word "reconciling", thus, God "was reconciling in Christ"; that is, by Christ; and so it denotes, as before, actual reconciliation by Christ. God, in pursuance of his purposes, council, and covenant, sent his Son to make peace; and laid our sins, and the chastisement of our peace upon him; this is the punishment of sin, whereby satisfaction was made for it, and so peace with God: or with the word "world", thus, "God was reconciling the world in Christ"; by whom are meant, not all the individuals of mankind, for these are not all in Christ, nor all reconciled to God, multitudes dying in enmity to him, nor all interested in the blessing of non-imputation of sin; whereas each of these is said of the world: but the elect of God, who are chosen in Christ, whose peace Christ is, whose sins are not imputed to them, and against whom no charge of any avail can be laid; and particularly the people of God among the Gentiles are here designed, who are frequently called "the world" in Scripture; being the world which God loved, for whose sins Christ is the propitiation, and of the reconciling of which mention is particularly made, John 3:16. And this sense well agrees with the context, which signifies, that no man is regarded for his natural descent; it is no matter whether he is a Jew or a Gentile, provided he is but a new creature: for Gospel reconciliation, and the ministry of it, concern one as well as another. Moreover, this reconciliation must be considered, either as intentional, or actual, or as a publication of it in the ministry of the word; and taken either way it cannot be thought to extend to every individual person in the world: if it is to be understood intentionally, that God intended the reconciliation of the world to himself by Christ, and drew the scheme of it in him, his intentions cannot be frustrated; his counsel shall stand, and he will do all his pleasure; a scheme so wisely laid by him in his Son, cannot come to nothing, or only in part be executed; and yet this must be the case, if it was his design to reconcile every individual of mankind to himself, since a large number of them are not reconciled to him: and if the words are to be understood of an actual reconciliation of the world unto God by Christ, which sense agrees with the preceding verse, then it is out of all question, that the word "world" cannot be taken in so large a sense as to take in every man and woman in the world; since it is certain that there are many who are not reconciled to God, who die in their sins, whose peace is not made with him, nor are they reconciled to the way of salvation by Christ: and should it be admitted that the ministry of reconciliation is here designed, which is not an offer of reconciliation to the world, but a proclamation or declaration of peace and reconciliation made by the death of Christ; this is not sent to all men; multitudes were dead before the word of reconciliation was committed to the apostles; and since, there have been great numbers who have never so much as heard of it; and even in the times of the apostles it did not reach to everyone then living: besides, the text does not speak of what God did by the ministry of his apostles, but of what he himself had been doing in his Son, and which was antecedent, and gave rise unto and was the foundation of their ministry. There was a scheme of reconciliation drawn in the counsels of God before the world began, and an actual reconciliation by the death of Christ, which is published in the Gospel, which these words contain the sum and substance of: and this reconciliation, as before, is said to be "unto himself"; to his offended justice, and for the glory of his perfections, and the reconciling of them together in the affair of salvation:

Now there is a Gospel sense in which subjective reconciliation is presently going on until the completion of all generations of objectively reconciled hear [spiritually] the good news of their Salvation/Reconciliation objectively in and through Jesus Christ..


Be warned that some teach a false view that this portion of scripture teaches universalism, everyone is reconciled to God or shall be, but thats not true because some shall die in their sins, the wrath of God is abiding on them, they shall not see life, and God still charges them with their sins Eph 5:6

⁶ Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things [sins]cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

 

[Nanja]

beloved57

Be warned that some teach a false view that this portion of scripture teaches universalism, everyone is reconciled to God or shall be, but thats not true because some shall die in their sins, the wrath of God is abiding on them, they shall not see life, and God still charges them with their sins Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things [sins]cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

Amen to this excellent post, John Gill's comments inclusive !



The wrath of God remains on the world of the children of disobedience Eph. 5:6 for all eternity, simply because God's wrath for them has not been appeased by Christ's Blood Rom. 9:22. They were not part of the World that God was in Christ reconciling to Himself, for it was not His Purpose Eph. 3:11, neither His Desire to do so.

Job 23:13-14

13 But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.

14 For he performeth the thing that is appointed for me: and many such things are with him.


Therefore, because they were not Chosen in Christ to have forgiveness of sins Eph. 1:4-7, He never knew [ginosko] them Mat. 7:23: hence they were not in the World of His Seed that was objectively reconciled to God by His Death on their behalf:


Is. 53:10-11

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities

 

[beloved57]

The world in 2 Cor 5:19 is limited to only some because ts a Justified world, all people arent Justified. We know this because there will be a resurrection in the last day of both the Just/Justified and the unjust/unjustified See Acts 24:15

And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

They're the same unjust of 1 Cor 6:9

Know you not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

But now Paul is speaking of a world of folk that God doesnt impute their sins unto them 2 Cor 5:19

¹⁹ To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Now non imputation of trespasses means forgiveness of them, Rom 4:7-8

⁷ Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.


⁸ Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Ps 32:1-2

Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered.


²Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Now those whom God will not impute sin are a forgiven people therefore a Justified people. A forgiven people are judicially legally Justified. it meansto cancel an indebtedness or liability of:

One of the NT words for Justification found in Rom 4:25 is the word dikaiósis which means:

acquittal, justifying, justification, a process of absolution

acquittal is but a synonym for forgiveness,

Hence the world in 2 Cor 5:19 is a forgiven, acquitted, justified world with no trespasses charged to it !

 

[beloved57]

Reconciled to God based upon Non Imputation of their trespasses. When ?

2 Cor 5:19

¹⁹ To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

When did God in Chrst purpose not to impute their trespasses unto them ?

 

[beloved57]

Reconciled to God based upon Non Imputation of their trespasses. When ?

When did God in Christ purpose not to impute their trespasses unto them ? Certainly it was before the world began ? How can we be certain from scripture ? Well if we read 1 Pet 1 we will fid that Christ redemptively had been foreordained before the world began 1 Pet 1:18-20

¹⁸ Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;


¹⁹ But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


²⁰ Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

What was He foreordained for before the foundation of the world ? To redeem certain sinners from their sins. What sins ? Sins that were laid to His Charge. Now if God purposed that Christ would come in time [be manifested] to redeem them from sin, it had to be determine that their sins would be charged to Him before the world began, which consequently means they re sins would not be charged to them before the world began, hence God was in Christ reconciling them to Himself not imputing their sins to them !

 

[Nanja]

Reconciled to God based upon Non Imputation of their trespasses. When ?

When did God in Christ purpose not to impute their trespasses unto them ? Certainly it was before the world began ? How can we be certain from scripture ? Well if we read 1 Pet 1 we will fid that Christ redemptively had been foreordained before the world began 1 Pet 1:18-20

¹⁸ Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;


¹⁹ But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:


²⁰ Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

What was He foreordained for before the foundation of the world ? To redeem certain sinners from their sins. What sins ? Sins that were laid to His Charge. Now if God purposed that Christ would come in time [be manifested] to redeem them from sin, it had to be determine that their sins would be charged to Him before the world began, which consequently means they re sins would not be charged to them before the world began, hence God was in Christ reconciling them to Himself not imputing their sins to them !

Amen Brother ! The World of 2 Cor. 5:19 is Limited exclusively to those who are sinless in God's sight Eph. 1:3-7 by non imputation Ps. 32:1-2 from Everlasting: A sinless World of mankind, reconciled to God by the Blood of Christ Heb. 7:22; Rev. 13:8b on their behalf Rom. 5:9-10.

 

[beloved57]

The imperative Paul gives in 2 Cor 5:20

²⁰ Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Its not to all men without exception as some falsely assume and teach, but to them that God hasnt imputed sin unto Vs 19 and to them that by virtue of the fact Christ was made a sin offering for, and thereby made the righteousness of God in Him 2 Cor 5:21

²¹ For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So the imperative in Vs 20

" be ye reconciled to God"is to men and women who have the righteousness of God charged to them or imputed, and this is the word of reconciliation or the Gospel preached to them Vs 19

¹⁹ To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation/Gospel.

And this Gospel or word of reconciliation reveals to them through the power of the Holy Spirit the righteousness of God they have imputed to them Rom 1:17

¹⁷ For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So the imperative " be ye reconciled to God" is actually God through the preached word bringing the reconciled to Faith in Christ who has been made sin for them.

Faith cometh by hearing the word of reconciliation/Gospel Rom 10:17. They will come to believe it after God the Holy Spirit reveals it to them :

For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: The word for revealed here means:

1. to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
   
   The righteousness of God they have by virtue of the fact that Christ was made sin for them, is not known naturally, but must must be revealed ! And so when revealed the Truth of it is received in the mind, will, and affections of that individual , and they commence the Life of Faith, for its written:
   
   ¹⁷ For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Nanja]

The imperative Paul gives in 2 Cor 5:20

²⁰ Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Its not to all men without exception as some falsely assume and teach, but to them that God hasnt imputed sin unto Vs 19 and to them that by virtue of the fact Christ was made a sin offering for, and thereby made the righteousness of God in Him 2 Cor 5:21

²¹ For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

So the imperative in Vs 20

" be ye reconciled to God"is to men and women who have the righteousness of God charged to them or imputed, and this is the word of reconciliation or the Gospel preached to them Vs 19

¹⁹ To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation/Gospel.

And this Gospel or word of reconciliation reveals to them through the power of the Holy Spirit the righteousness of God they have imputed to them Rom 1:17

¹⁷ For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

So the imperative " be ye reconciled to God" is actually God through the preached word bringing the reconciled to Faith in Christ who has been made sin for them.

Faith cometh by hearing the word of reconciliation/Gospel Rom 10:17. They will come to believe it after God the Holy Spirit reveals it to them :

For therein[The Gospel] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: The word for revealed here means:

1. to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown
   
   The righteousness of God they have by virtue of the fact that Christ was made sin for them, is not known naturally, but must must be revealed ! And so when revealed the Truth of it is received in the mind, will, and affections of that individual , and they commence the Life of Faith, for its written:
   
   ¹⁷ For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Amen ! Hearing the Word of Reconciliation / Gospel, that Christ has been made sin for them, is Limited to His Body chosen in Him before the foundation to have forgiveness of sins and Eternal Inheritance Eph. 1:4-11 by His Death on their behalf.

And so this imperative, "be ye reconciled", in the passive voice, is only possible by a person after he has been Born of the Spirit and given Faith / Belief Gal. 5:22 in Christ.

So their being reconciled to God is a Work of the Holy Spirit who reveals it to them, turning them to God.

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

 

[beloved57]

nanja

And so this imperative, "be ye reconciled", in the passive voice, is only possible by a person after he has been Born of the Spirit and given Faith / Belief Gal. 5:22 in Christ.

Yes, many ignore that fact, that the imperative here is passive voice, the subjects being acted upon to be reconciled to the word of truth !

So their being reconciled to God is a Work of the Holy Spirit who reveals it to them, turning them to God.

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light[light of the Gospel], and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


Thats word light phōs means:

1. of truth and its knowledge, together with the spiritual purity associated with it
   1. reason, mind
      1. the power of understanding esp. moral and spiritual truth
   
   

 

[Right Divider]

Look:
Question: If Christ reconciled, why do 'we' need to "be reconciled to God?"

Because reconciliation between TWO parties is BIDIRECTIONAL.

 

[Lon]

Because reconciliation between TWO parties is BIDIRECTIONAL.

Specifically, we may or may not agree on 'who' is reconciled. It depends on 'if' God has perfect foreknowledge (I believe He does Jeremiah 1:5) and 'how' that foreknowledge is defined ("definite or provisional"). I wholly believe scripture gives every indication it is definite (again Jeremiah 1:5 is more than a strong indicator for me and I personally, cannot but believe so, it is so substantial but somewhat deduced at times from scripture).


In a nutshell, I'm arguing whether or not this stance is unbiblical. Regardless what Robert Pate might assert, we cannot pit scripture against scripture and we are incredibly remise for arguing over it imho. I believe a lot of Robert's fights are sin at worst, much less effective at best, because of it. Clearly we are NEVER to pit scripture against scripture but 'reconcile' honestly, scripture with scripture. I honestly believe Robert Pate is not honest. He is fighting against God with God. All Christian believers are trying to simply embrace scripture. Imho, we are better served trying to understand the other guy. I know the weakness of the Calvinist position. I never argue with a MADist. He/she has a lot of good points that I value. I need to hear what scriptures they are embracing and help, if I can (and as hopefully they for me), see any other important scriptures. Honestly, it is all I am concerned about. The pettiness of a one-sided argument where it is obvious the other doesn't know his/her Bible as well as I do, is pointless and really just distaste and emoting rather than God-honoring. It is a personality conflict. Pate doesn't seem to understand that. Some Calvinists are as bad as Robert Pate. I'm as against that as I am against Robert's stance as well. I just don't see it as good discussion. God is sovereign over our theology. We need to be seeking Him. As we do so, we WILL be drawn closer and closer into right theology. I'm convinced of it. Therefore, a fight over it on TOL can be iron against iron, but we can also do so more openly and congenially with perhaps (I think definitely) more and better effect.

 

[Nanja]

nanja



Yes, many ignore that fact, that the imperative here is passive voice, the subjects being acted upon to be reconciled to the word of truth !



Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light[light of the Gospel], and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.


Thats word light phōs means:

1. of truth and its knowledge, together with the spiritual purity associated with it
   1. reason, mind
      1. the power of understanding esp. moral and spiritual truth
   
   

TY and Amen !