God and Evil

[George Affleck]

What's reeeeeealy scary is some folks don't have ears no matter what kind of math you use ... :shocked:

True.

 

[George Affleck]

Hey, PJ!

You went and had a makeover! :Nineveh:

 

[aikido7]

Psssst ...that's 20.

I realize there are two or three different versions of the commandments. But since we all reflexively say there are 10, I was trying to make it simple.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[aikido7]

Epistle of Barnabas


CHAPTER 8

The sacrifice of a heifer

1 But what do you think that it typifies, that the commandment has been given to Israel that the men in whom sin is complete offer a heifer and slay it and burn it, and that boys then take the ashes and put them into vessels and bind scarlet wool on sticks (see again the type of the Cross and the scarlet wool) and hyssop, and that the boys all sprinkle the people thus one by one in order that they all be purified from their sins?

2 Observe how plainly he speaks to you. The calf is Jesus; the sinful men offering it are those who brought him to be slain. Then there are no longer men, no longer the glory of sinners.

3 The boys who sprinkle are they who preached to us the forgiveness of sins, and the purification of the heart, to whom he gave the power of the Gospel to preach, and there are twelve as a testimony to the tribes, because there are twelve tribes of Israel.

4 But why are there three boys who sprinkle? As a testimony to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, for these are great before God.

5 And why was the wool put on the wood? Because the kingdom of Jesus is on the wood, and because those who hope on him shall live for ever.

6 But why are the wool and the hyssop together? Because in his kingdom there shall be evil and foul days, in which we shall be saved, for he also who has pain in his flesh is cured by the foulness of the hyssop.

7 And for this reason the things which were thus done are plain to us, but obscure to them, because they did not hear the Lord's voice.

I don't know what the connection is. Sorry, I must be brain damaged.

One cool thing in Barnabas is the verse that says the villagers drove the scapegoat from their midst by using REEDS.

That's what the gospel authors were thinking about when they said the Roman soldiers used reeds to beat and humiliate Jesus.

 

[aikido7]

This numerology thing could catch on.

We have 8 fingers and 2 thumbs.
That makes 10 digits.

1,000,000,000 also has 10 digits, but no fingers.

What does it all mean?

I need both to extend my hand and give you a BIG one (hand).
Sorry about putting you under pressure. I have a billion digits.

Like me or not, ya gotta hand it to me.

 

[fzappa13]

I don't know what the connection is. Sorry, I must be brain damaged.

One cool thing in Barnabas is the verse that says the villagers drove the scapegoat from their midst by using REEDS.

That's what the gospel authors were thinking about when they said the Roman soldiers used reeds to beat and humiliate Jesus.

That deal with the scape goat is one of the most poorly understood passages in the Bible ... and you can start with the fact that the (e)scape goat is the one that gets away. :rapture: His compatriot doesn't fare so well.

 

[fzappa13]

I realize there are two or three different versions of the commandments. But since we all reflexively say there are 10, I was trying to make it simple.

Sorry for the confusion.

No confusion ... but when you lob one like that over the plate ... well ... a guy's just gotta swing.

 

[George Affleck]

Before we get sidetracked, are there any other answers anyone would like to put forward?

Here is our list so far:

1. Discriminatory judgements from ignorance cannot be compared to God's perfect discernment regarding skin colour or prayer importance. It is He alone who looks on the heart. Jer 17:10KJV
fishrovmen

2. What is considered suffering in this world is a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity after death. Rom 8:18KJV 1Cor 2:9KJV
patrick jane, glorydaz

3. What logic compels a person to conclude there is no God because some do not worship Him properly? God knows this already. Mat 23:27KJV Ps 51:6KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck

4. Affliction and hardship is the natural outworking of a broken world and verification that sin is dynamic, real and has permeated every facet of creation. Rom 8:22KJV
6days, George Affleck

5. How much evil/suffering or prayers of "minutia" would need to be eliminated for this question to never be asked? If evil/suffering were completely eliminated and all was good, who would seek God? A faith unable to be tried is no faith at all. 2Ch 33:12KJV Ps 50:15KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck, fzappa13

6. Although we can learn much, the full answer to why evil/suffering is in the world is wrapped up in the infinite wisdom of God and cannot be fully comprehended or appreciated. It is sufficient to say that God wills righteously what men do wickedly. Is 55:9KJV
MrDeets, PureX, fishrovmen, AMR

7. Although He does not have to, God takes full responsibility for vanquishing evil and comforting suffering in His perfect timing. Matt 25:41KJV Matt 5:4KJV Rev 21:4KJV
George Affleck, AMR

8. Our present "knowledge of good and evil" and the difference between them is what we would expect if the Genesis account is true. Because God is good we are given a standard by which evil can be recognized and condemned. 1 Cor 14:33KJV

9. A knowledge of the languages God chose for revelation reveals that "good" (tov) carries the meaning of functionally created which has a latent potential for interference, if God allows, labelled "evil" (ra'a). These concepts are not individually subjective or personally determined in our modern sense and we are not entitled to criticism by reason of our created existence.
PPS

10. Suffering via evil is an invitation to believers to participate in God's work. It is a proving ground for believers and haters of evil. Jas 2:20KJV
Eric h, George Affleck, 6days

11. Automation provides no option. One cannot truly and freely choose to love God without an option. God desires fellowship with His created beings and has repaired the problem that prevented it by grace through faith. Mat 23:37KJV 1 John 4:10KJV
Jamie Gigliotti​

What else?

 

[fzappa13]

Before we get sidetracked, are there any other answers anyone would like to put forward?

Here is our list so far:

1. Discriminatory judgements from ignorance cannot be compared to God's perfect discernment regarding skin colour or prayer importance. It is He alone who looks on the heart. Jer 17:10KJV
fishrovmen

2. What is considered suffering in this world is a blink of an eye in comparison to eternity after death. Rom 8:18KJV 1Cor 2:9KJV
patrick jane, glorydaz

3. What logic compels a person to conclude there is no God because some do not worship Him properly? God knows this already. Mat 23:27KJV Ps 51:6KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck

4. Affliction and hardship is the natural outworking of a broken world and verification that sin is dynamic, real and has permeated every facet of creation. Rom 8:22KJV
6days, George Affleck

5. How much evil/suffering or prayers of "minutia" would need to be eliminated for this question to never be asked? If evil/suffering were completely eliminated and all was good, who would seek God? A faith unable to be tried is no faith at all. 2Ch 33:12KJV Ps 50:15KJV
fishrovmen, George Affleck, fzappa13

6. Although we can learn much, the full answer to why evil/suffering is in the world is wrapped up in the infinite wisdom of God and cannot be fully comprehended or appreciated. It is sufficient to say that God wills righteously what men do wickedly. Is 55:9KJV
MrDeets, PureX, fishrovmen, AMR

7. Although He does not have to, God takes full responsibility for vanquishing evil and comforting suffering in His perfect timing. Matt 25:41KJV Matt 5:4KJV Rev 21:4KJV
George Affleck, AMR

8. Our present "knowledge of good and evil" and the difference between them is what we would expect if the Genesis account is true. Because God is good we are given a standard by which evil can be recognized and condemned. 1 Cor 14:33KJV

9. A knowledge of the languages God chose for revelation reveals that "good" (tov) carries the meaning of functionally created which has a latent potential for interference, if God allows, labelled "evil" (ra'a). These concepts are not individually subjective or personally determined in our modern sense and we are not entitled to criticism by reason of our created existence.
PPS

10. Suffering via evil is an invitation to believers to participate in God's work. It is a proving ground for believers and haters of evil. Jas 2:20KJV
Eric h, George Affleck, 6days

11. Automation provides no option. One cannot truly and freely choose to love God without an option. God desires fellowship with His created beings and has repaired the problem that prevented it by grace through faith. Mat 23:37KJV 1 John 4:10KJV
Jamie Gigliotti​

What else?

I've been rightly accused by PPS of a penchant to summate. In (5) I suggested a faith untried is no faith. As it concerns (11) I would suggest that a love that is commanded is not love.

 

[George Affleck]

I've been rightly accused by PPS of a penchant to summate. In (5) I suggested a faith untried is no faith. As it concerns (11) I would suggest that a love that is commanded is not love.

Excellent! I will add that but not post it until others have had a chance to weigh in.

 

[George Affleck]

The English word 'suffering' is very interesting.

I am thinking, for instance, of the difference between the suffering of the poor or sick and to suffer or allow as when Jesus said "Suffer the little children to come unto me".

The word also can mean 'to bear' which actually bridges the meaning gap between the two.

 

[George Affleck]

What about the consideration that, if evil and suffering were not available for God to allow, Christ could not have been crucified.

Indeed, if this were true, we would be in our sins without a redeemer. The original sin was not evil; it was disobedience. Jesus would undoubtedly be available and willing, but there would be no evil to tempt Him, scourge Him, revile Him, spit on Him, crucify Him and He could not suffer.

 

[aikido7]

That deal with the scape goat is one of the most poorly understood passages in the Bible ... and you can start with the fact that the (e)scape goat is the one that gets away. :rapture: His compatriot doesn't fare so well.

Maybe you could get me in touch with those people who understand the passage just as it meant to its original author(s). And as it meant to its ancient readers and listeners.

 

[aikido7]

Calvinistic tendencies, hints of JW, shades of anti-trinity, anti-Paul, anti MAD, and now you follow apocrypha ?

The Bible was written and compiled by inspired believers. Everything is an interpretation, including the sentence being read now.

The many traditions, translations, versions in Christian bookstores, theologies, narratives, metaphors and legends are contradictory and have many discrepancies.

But they are a record of our Christian faith and we have to take all the many genres solemnly and purposefully.

 

[fzappa13]

Maybe you could get me in touch with those people who understand the passage just as it meant to its original author(s). And as it meant to its ancient readers and listeners.

You can start by reading the passage in question. There are two goats involved. One is sacrificed and one is led into the wilderness by the hand of strong man. Our modern culture mistakenly refers to the scape goat as one that has suffered the less preferable fate of the two and I would suggest a simple reading of the passage sufficient to dispense with that notion at first read. That said, there are things worse than dying. Read the Bible long enough and you will see that this and all other ordinances were prophetic in nature and with a little luck you will spot similarities with them and what shows up later in the Bible. They point to the same things. These two goats and their respective fates are every bit as prophetic as that of the lamb without spot.

 

[ttruscott]

"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

This is a quote from MrDeets blogpost which seems to me to be the essence of a long unanswered difficulty he struggled with. This is a reasonable question and a real issue for many and can be used effectively by Satan if left unanswered.

I encourage all serious, biblical/theological input.

GOD is loving holiness so
NO innocents suffer.
Only sinners suffer.
Only sinners are born as men.

Death and suffering do not prove GOD is absent or evil since HE claims to be their righteous judge bringing justice upon the wicked. Bad things do not happen to good people; bad things happen to bad people, that is, everyone.

 

[quip]

If God be truely immanent then His existence would be categorically apparent; accepted effortlessly as say, our capacity to feel the very pangs of suffering itself. As such, a life dedicated to ignoring His truth would be justly punished and equally insufferable.

Though no such effort against/for the notion of God's existence/nature need exist necessarily.

As it stands we exist in total ignorance to any godly existence, ergo we struggle supplanting one redaction of God (divine law) over another. Unneccessary divisiveness, skepticism, pain and suffering ensues....of which - by way of godly omniscience - could be effortlessly precluded.

 

[Desert Reign]

Our flawed and limited perception of right and wrong, the struggle between good and evil, is because the whole of our entity is damaged by the fall. The only difference between those who are Christians and those who are not (in essence) is that Christians, by the gift of faith, now understand that because they are sinners, all thoughts and dogma must be governed strictly by the Revelation that God has provided.

As opposed to the Bible, which states that before Adam disobeyed, man had no knowledge whatsoever of good and evil but afterwards he 'had become like one of us, knowing good and evil.'
God did not say 'Now the man has become like one of us, and his previously perfect perception of good and evil has turned into a limited perception of right and wrong and the struggle between good and evil.'
So you must have invented that.

It's a good job we do have the Bible so that we can check out when you have invented things and when you are speaking the truth; indeed, as you say, thought and dogma should be governed strictly by the revelation of God. I would suggest though, that the origin of your ideas was rather with Augustine or with Calvin, not with the Bible itself.

 

[fzappa13]

If God be truely immanent then His existence would be categorically apparent; accepted effortlessly as say, our capacity to feel the very pangs of suffering itself. As such, a life dedicated to ignoring His truth would be justly punished and equally insufferable.

Though no such effort against/for the notion of God's existence/nature need exist necessarily.

As it stands we exist in total ignorance to any godly existence, ergo we struggle supplanting one redaction of God (divine law) over another. Unneccessary divisiveness, skepticism, pain and suffering ensues....of which - by way of godly omniscience - could be effortlessly precluded.

..... mmmmm ... who's "we?"

 

[ananomyx]

If God were to end evil and suffering He would have to put an end to sin. To put an end to sin He would have to force people to do good. If he forces then it is not free will and we would be no different than robots. If God ends evil where would he begin since all humans are fallible and corrupt. He would have to end all life. Evil only points us to a real PERFECT MORAL LAW which we know exist because of the question. A lot of times we stay focused on this temporary life and forget without God no evil thing will ever be judged in the futire. With God all things ever done will be accounted for He says vengence is His. We will all give an account of the good and the bad we have done while here.
Also without pain there is no real growth in character. Its the pain we see or go through that molds us and changes us to be better people (although some let the pain make them bitter).

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