God and Evil

[Desert Reign]

With God all things ever done will be accounted for He says vengence is His. We will all give an account of the good and the bad we have done while here.
Also without pain there is no real growth in character. Its the pain we see or go through that molds us and changes us to be better people (although some let the pain make them bitter).

I don't agree with all you say but with the above I do. Pain and suffering are normal human experiences and nothing we should ask God to remove or hold him responsible for. In the same way, joy and happiness are normal. They are both mutually defining. When we think of suffering we also think of joy and happiness.

Pain and suffering, joy and happiness are the real boundaries of our personalities. They reflect that we are truly self-determining beings. They are our point of interaction with the outside world.

When I say that we are truly self-determining, I of course deny any teaching that all our decisions and actions have been determined externally. I know a lot of people have trouble grasping this but it is basic common sense. It desn't mean we can do anything we want. Because if we could do that then we would not experience joy at success or sadness or pain at failure. When we experience joy in success it is precisely because we know there was a possibility of failure and pain. When we experience pain, it is because we know there was a possibility of joy and pleasure. The pain, the suffering, the joy, the pleasure are real. And just as real are the possibilities of their opposites.

For example, if we cheat at a computer game and amass great advantages, then we do not experience joy at having won the game. This is why cheating in life is evil, along with stealing, fraud and so on. There is no joy associated with it. Normally, what is good for one person is bad for another: you win a bet but another person loses; you suffer an earthquake but a construction company gets a contract to rebuild your house. But a cheat gets no joy from cheating and his victim gets only suffering.

These are common sense ideas and need no theology to justify them. I don't need to be redeemed in order to understand them. I don't need to tell anyone that they cannot understand this because they are fallen (the way Calvinists are fond of talking when they tell us that we cannot understand God or suffering because we are fallen and thus they get an excuse for failing to account for the inconsistencies in their theology). Truth actually belongs to everyone and it is not the exclusive province of those who claim to have revelation from God.

 

[chrysostom]

Also without pain there is no real growth in character.

yes but it is also a test to see how you will respond

 

[ananomyx]

i believe we are self determining likewise yet believe in Gods full sovereignty, and yes there are common sense ideas that require no theology to justify them like those laws embedded into our consciousness. But my only point was that the suffering we see doesnt negate God, but it does show us that since humanity is fallen and imperfect, we make wrong decisions, this isnt an excuse, this is just reality. Me, as a believer, understand and my goal is to explain to others why it is, and what we can do to help. We will never fix the problem because we can't force people to understand. Scripture says "but they loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." So free will in a fallen world is the reason things are the way they are. And God won't mess with our free will or else it wouldn't be free will. (He wants those who will willingly choose Him)It's just a result of the fallen world we are in. Again this isnt an excuse, but just a reality. But God will have the final say, and all evil will be accounted for.

 

[Desert Reign]

i believe we are self determining likewise yet believe in Gods full sovereignty, and yes there are common sense ideas that require no theology to justify them like those laws embedded into our consciousness. But my only point was that the suffering we see doesnt negate God, but it does show us that since humanity is fallen and imperfect, we make wrong decisions, this isnt an excuse, this is just reality. Me, as a believer, understand and my goal is to explain to others why it is, and what we can do to help. We will never fix the problem because we can't force people to understand. Scripture says "but they loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed." So free will in a fallen world is the reason things are the way they are. And God won't mess with our free will or else it wouldn't be free will. (He wants those who will willingly choose Him)It's just a result of the fallen world we are in. Again this isnt an excuse, but just a reality. But God will have the final say, and all evil will be accounted for.

Suffering doesn't show that we are fallen or imperfect. It just shows that we are human. Indeed they are part of the human experience and without them we are incomplete.

There is nothing in the Bible that says we are fallen. The only place I could find in my NASB about the fall was in Genesis ch. 3 where the paragraph heading was 'The Fall of Man'. But we all know of course that this heading is not part of the Bible. It was only added by the NASB editor. It certainly was not put there by any of the translators because a translator is paid to translate, not to insert his own comments. There really is nothing in the whole Bible that says that man fell in the garden. It is an invention by theologians to make you believe that you are incomplete and that you can only be made complete by believing their doctrines or by accepting their authority over you.

 

[aikido7]

You can start by reading the passage in question. There are two goats involved. One is sacrificed and one is led into the wilderness by the hand of strong man. Our modern culture mistakenly refers to the scape goat as one that has suffered the less preferable fate of the two and I would suggest a simple reading of the passage sufficient to dispense with that notion at first read. That said, there are things worse than dying. Read the Bible long enough and you will see that this and all other ordinances were prophetic in nature and with a little luck you will spot similarities with them and what shows up later in the Bible. They point to the same things. These two goats and their respective fates are every bit as prophetic as that of the lamb without spot.

My claim is that the gospel writers who wrote 40 to 70 years after Jesus's death used tropes from the Hebrew Bible to help them frame their inspired takes on the life and death of Jesus.

The story of the goat(s) in Barnabas being driven out into the wilderness by using reeds was inserted into the Romans humiliating Jesus with reeds as well.

Once of the things I began doing is learning about the pattern of the Bible as containing different traditions, themes, theologies, etc. There is also evidence how the gospel writers were also inspired to use linguistic forms of their own contemporary literary works, such as the writings of Homer and other famous texts.

Is this what you are talking about here?

 

[Jose Fly]

From another thread...

Creationists like to argue that evolution can't generate complexity or "genetic information". If you look at the biochemical pathways and structures various pathogens use to inflict disease, they are quite complex. So if the creationists are right and evolution can't create them, what did? God?

 

[quip]

..... mmmmm ... who's "we?"

You, me and them.

 

[George Affleck]

Suffering doesn't show that we are fallen or imperfect. It just shows that we are human. Indeed they are part of the human experience and without them we are incomplete.

There is nothing in the Bible that says we are fallen. The only place I could find in my NASB about the fall was in Genesis ch. 3 where the paragraph heading was 'The Fall of Man'. But we all know of course that this heading is not part of the Bible. It was only added by the NASB editor. It certainly was not put there by any of the translators because a translator is paid to translate, not to insert his own comments. There really is nothing in the whole Bible that says that man fell in the garden. It is an invention by theologians to make you believe that you are incomplete and that you can only be made complete by believing their doctrines or by accepting their authority over you.

What superficial and unbiblical views of man’s desperate plight we have been coaxed into believing! Christ came here not to help those who are just sick and willing to help themselves, but to do for his people, by miraculous means, what they are totally incapable of doing themselves because they are spiritually dead.

“To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house” Isa. 42:7KJV.

Note that in Mat 11:25KJV there are those from whom God has hidden the truth and then there are believers who were in such a condition that the truth had to be revealed. All are in the same condition - all blind. Some become saved; some are not.

We are in complete darkness but "...God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." Without God's intervention, this is a complete impossibility.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." How does this verse teach anything but total and complete human non-ability unless spiritually regenerated?

The Bible from beginning to end declares that man is totally ruined. He is in a state of guilt and depravity from which he is utterly unable to deliver himself. On the day when Adam fell from grace he began to die physically but died immediately spiritually. He was separated from God by a great gulf which only supernatural regeneration could regain - ye must be born again.

 

[Desert Reign]

Firstly, as you chose to answer this post instead of the one I first wrote, do you agree then with the first one?

What superficial and unbiblical views of man’s desperate plight we have been coaxed into believing!

Amen bro. I heartily concur. It is a shame that through a lot of church history, theologians assumed that man was evil. Or depraved or whatever. They had nothing of any worth to say about us at all. Still, you and I can fix that now can't we? (After you have searched the scriptures yourself to check what I say of course.)

Christ came here not to help those who are just sick and willing to help themselves, but to do for his people, by miraculous means, what they are totally incapable of doing themselves because they are spiritually dead.

Well, I agree with the sentiment. But in point of fact, Christ died not only for his people but for the whole world. So that those who were not his people would be called beloved, the people of the Lord.

“To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house” Isa. 42:7KJV.

Amen to that again bro.

We are in complete darkness but

I am not sure where you got this from. Paul says that God set out the boundaries of the nations so that people might perhaps seek him. And again Peter says that God "accepts from every nation the one who fears him and does what is right." I wouldn't call this complete darkness.

"...God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness,

Sure. But in its context, Paul is clearly referring to the creation narrative. So obviously there was God's light ever since the creation. All light was God's light. Whether it came from the sun, the moon or the stars.

hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." Without God's intervention, this is a complete impossibility.

I am not sure what you are saying there. It looks like you are saying that God did X. If God had not done X then X would not have happened. It is true but doesn't mean anything.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." How does this verse teach anything but total and complete human non-ability unless spiritually regenerated?

Not all men are 'natural' in the sense being described here. Clearly Cornelius (referred to above) knew nothing of Christ but God still accepted him. The Greek word used is a very particular word (ψυχικὸς) and is not at all the same word as the usual word for natural. When you do something by nature or naturally, it is a different word. The word used here is contrasted with spiritual, so a more modern translation would be fleshly or unspiritual. This verse in no way teaches or implies that man is by nature unable to see God's light.

The Bible from beginning to end declares that man is totally ruined. He is in a state of guilt and depravity from which he is utterly unable to deliver himself. On the day when Adam fell from grace he began to die physically but died immediately spiritually. He was separated from God by a great gulf which only supernatural regeneration could regain - ye must be born again.

Well, if you are unable to show any scripture that actually states that man fell, you have an uphill struggle proving this as anything other than just a human idea. I mean, even just a tincy wincy little verse would be adequate. I am not asking for much. Perhaps someone with your knowledge of the Bible can help out here? Your concept of dying spiritually is nowhere to be found in the Old Testament either. Believe me, I have looked high and low for it but it is not there. Unless you can show where it is, I don't think you have anything. It is amazing that what we think of as everyday concepts (for us as Christians) can be just illusions. I'm afraid that the concept of spiritual death in the Old Testament is one such. The fall is another one. But You are welcome to try. I would like to find it. I would like you to show me it. Really. It's just that I haven't ever found it myself. And as I said before, the Bible is there to settle truth from falsity and at the moment I am going with the Bible on this.

 

[Totton Linnet]

"....if ye being evil know how to give good gifts...."

 

[Desert Reign]

"....if ye being evil know how to give good gifts...."

Thanks Totty for that incy wincy verse that clearly states that even evil people know how to give good gifts, hence aren't as evil as even they think themselves to be. And I also appreciate the explicit reference to the fall. It's so clear, I just don't know how I missed it before.

 

[glorydaz]

Thanks Totty for that incy wincy verse that clearly states that even evil people know how to give good gifts, hence aren't as evil as even they think themselves to be. And I also appreciate the explicit reference to the fall. It's so clear, I just don't know how I missed it before.

And they aren't too "dead", either. Yep, Tottie is a gem. :thumb:

 

[Totton Linnet]

Thanks Totty for that incy wincy verse that clearly states that even evil people know how to give good gifts, hence aren't as evil as even they think themselves to be. And I also appreciate the explicit reference to the fall. It's so clear.

I donno it seems simple to me to then ask "how did they come to be evil?" It seems clear not only from scripture but also history that man is totally incapable of coming at the truth by himself....think how dark Africa was 150 years ago.

 

[Totton Linnet]

And they aren't too "dead", either. Yep, Tottie is a gem. :thumb:

oh no...DR is being sarcastic...but I forgive him

I believe mankind is just as dead as dead can be toward God....helpless

 

[Desert Reign]

I donno it seems simple to me to then ask "how did they come to be evil?" It seems clear not only from scripture but also history that man is totally incapable of coming at the truth by himself....think how dark Africa was 150 years ago.

Well, the answer is as clear as a bell and can be found in Genesis 6:5. Never mind Africa 150 years ago.

The LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Of course, this was how man was exactly as God created him. God didn't regret that man had fallen. He regretted that he had made him at all:

And the LORD regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart.

No fall there. Think again.

 

[glorydaz]

oh no...DR is being sarcastic...but I forgive him

I believe mankind is just as dead as dead can be toward God....helpless

Drat...serves me right for not reading all the way through. :sigh:

 

[Totton Linnet]

@DR 195 He wasn't in the same place with God when God brought to him the animals to see what Adam would call them...he had fallen

 

[Totton Linnet]

Drat...serves me right for not reading all the way through. :sigh:

I got to spread more rep around before giving it to glory....DR thinks Tots is woosie somewhat...a simplistic believer.

 

[Desert Reign]

I got to spread more rep around before giving it to glory....DR thinks Tots is woosie somewhat...a simplistic believer.

Not really. It's just that I don't see how you can call yourself an independent free grace believer. That seems to me to be a contradiction in terms. If you are reliant on grace given freely to you, then that is not what I would call independence...

@DR 195 He wasn't in the same place with God when God brought to him the animals to see what Adam would call them...he had fallen

Oh. You mean he was in Africa?

 

[Totton Linnet]

Not really. It's just that I don't see how you can call yourself an independent free grace believer. That seems to me to be a contradiction in terms. If you are reliant on grace given freely to you, then that is not what I would call independence...

Independent from other free grace believers...