God and Evil

[Totton Linnet]

Not really. It's just that I don't see how you can call yourself an independent free grace believer. That seems to me to be a contradiction in terms. If you are reliant on grace given freely to you, then that is not what I would call independence...



Oh. You mean he was in Africa?

He sure wasn't in Eden nor was there any way of himself he could get back to his beautiful Garden of abundance.....all the freewill in the world would not avail

 

[ananomyx]

Suffering doesn't show that we are fallen or imperfect. It just shows that we are human. Indeed they are part of the human experience and without them we are incomplete.

There is nothing in the Bible that says we are fallen. The only place I could find in my NASB about the fall was in Genesis ch. 3 where the paragraph heading was 'The Fall of Man'. But we all know of course that this heading is not part of the Bible. It was only added by the NASB editor. It certainly was not put there by any of the translators because a translator is paid to translate, not to insert his own comments. There really is nothing in the whole Bible that says that man fell in the garden. It is an invention by theologians to make you believe that you are incomplete and that you can only be made complete by believing their doctrines or by accepting their authority over you.

if we are not fallen then are we perfect? If we are not fallen then what are we?
If we are not perfect then at least something must be wrong with us. Fallen is just another word for blemished, or imperfect, or whatever u want to call it. The concept of human imperfection and separation from God is the whole point of the Word of God from the beginning of it to the end. Humans are fallible. And we must ask why is it part of the human experience? You see good can exist without evil, but evil is a corruption of a good thing. We do evil when we twist what is good.
The whole point of Christ coming was to fix what happen at the fall. Humans could never be the perfect standard, Jesus is our perfect example. We never achieve perfection while we are here, but that was never the point. The point is to restore our broken relationship with our creator. And since we are separated from God only accepting Christ's sacrifice and turning from our fallen (sinful) state brings the Holy Spirit, which alone guides us while we are here. But Roman 7 shows us that a battle will exist between our sinful nature and the Spirit.

 

[Desert Reign]

if we are not fallen then are we perfect? If we are not fallen then what are we?

"That, my boy, is the right question." (I, Robot)

Perfection is a Platonic ideal. It doesn't exist in the real world. Perfection implies that there is a model of human beings somewhere in cyberspace that we must conform to or else there is something wrong with us.

In the real world, we are self-defining. Our only ideal is what we ourselves make.

Now I know that many of you will be throwing fits to hear this, but it is the truth. It is why we are self-determined, not predestinated. Some people call it 'having free will'. I think self-determination is much the better term. It does not mean that God didn't create us. It means that God created us to be free. Freedom of course doesn't mean being independent, as Totty will readily agree but that is why I use the term self-determining. It means that our goals and aspirations are our own, not anyone else's. The human condition is not about falling from an ideal. Such an ideal does not exist and has never existed.

And it is because we are self-determined, that we have such high hopes for humanity and simultaneously such great disappointment in ourselves. And it is because we are self-determined that makes us moral beings, responsible for what we do, whether we do it deliberately, accidentally or indifferently. It is this exact same reason why we also need to be forgiven and why forgiveness is meaningful for us. Forgiveness enables us to change direction.

The point is that this is how God has made us. And this is why he so regretted having made us. I mean, why would he wait for the flood, to be disappointed in us? Why wasn't he disappointed in us right at the start when he made us? The point is that that is what we as self-determining beings became. Now that is a historical fact. It has nothing to do with a fall. It has nothing to do with inheriting 'sinfulness' from Adam (original sin) or being corporately responsible. It has to do with what we became as self-determining beings. Adam was the first and because he was the first to sin, sin entered the world through him. This is what Romans 5 means. It doesn't mean there was something called sin, in the way that there is something called tuberculosis or swine flu, that spread physically around the world. It just means that we each chose to live independently from God and his love. It doesn't even mean that everyone did, just that it was characteristic of humanity. There were people who occasionally chose to serve God and some of these are recorded.

And whilst it is still possible for a person to be essentially righteous, the Gospel brings spiritual power with it. It is more than just an ethic to follow, it is the power to follow that ethic and it is a promise of physical resurrection, the fulfilment of that power and the justification of the choice to be righteous. And this Gospel is exactly what mankind, who in his self-determination has wandered very far from God, needs to bring him close. It is part of God's plan and not just some accident.

I know of course that some people are going to throw a load of scriptures at me seemingly contradicting this, but I just ask that before you do, please consider the logic, the reasoning behind this idea and consider if it is sane instead of jumping on words.

 

[ananomyx]

so for what did christ die if not to reconcile the fallen back to a relationship with God?

 

[aikido7]

You can start by reading the passage in question. There are two goats involved. One is sacrificed and one is led into the wilderness by the hand of strong man. Our modern culture mistakenly refers to the scape goat as one that has suffered the less preferable fate of the two and I would suggest a simple reading of the passage sufficient to dispense with that notion at first read. That said, there are things worse than dying. Read the Bible long enough and you will see that this and all other ordinances were prophetic in nature and with a little luck you will spot similarities with them and what shows up later in the Bible. They point to the same things. These two goats and their respective fates are every bit as prophetic as that of the lamb without spot.

I use three guides for my exegesis.

1. READ the verse or passage. First, know what is actually IN the Bible.
2. Endeavor to discover what the passage or verse meant to its original authors and to those who first heard it or read it.
3. Use your God-given gifts to apply the underlying message or truth to the world we are living in.

I realize "number 2" is rarely taught from today's clergy or Christian education. I have found it to be essential and has made my appreciation of Christianity much more richer and profound.

For example, reading Jesus's many pronouncements on poverty and income inequality do not tell us at all about the economic system the Roman Empire imposed on its inhabitants.

Recent archaeological efforts have revealed the existence of at least two fish-processing plants built on the shores of Lake Galilee. This fact can give us a little insight as to why some of the local fisherman were bent on following Jesus.

What he offered to them was much more important than making a living for themselves and their families.

 

[aikido7]

In Matthew, Jesus says That you may be the children of your Father in Heaven. He causes His sun to rise on evil and good....

 

[fzappa13]

My claim is that the gospel writers who wrote 40 to 70 years after Jesus's death used tropes from the Hebrew Bible to help them frame their inspired takes on the life and death of Jesus.

The story of the goat(s) in Barnabas being driven out into the wilderness by using reeds was inserted into the Romans humiliating Jesus with reeds as well.

Once of the things I began doing is learning about the pattern of the Bible as containing different traditions, themes, theologies, etc. There is also evidence how the gospel writers were also inspired to use linguistic forms of their own contemporary literary works, such as the writings of Homer and other famous texts.

Is this what you are talking about here?

This post is so disconnected from what I wrote as to be utterly unanswerable.

 

[ananomyx]

"That, my boy, is the right question." (I, Robot)

Perfection is a Platonic ideal. It doesn't exist in the real world. Perfection implies that there is a model of human beings somewhere in cyberspace that we must conform to or else there is something wrong with us.

In the real world, we are self-defining. Our only ideal is what we ourselves make.

also if perfection is only an ideal we each individually make, then what justifies an action as evil.

If someone was to see it as acceptable to be a cannibal or murderer? How can we deem their actions unacceptable unless we can agree there is some kind of REAL REFERENCE POINT to apppeal to.

 

[ananomyx]

"

And whilst it is still possible for a person to be essentially righteous, the Gospel brings spiritual power with it. It is more than just an ethic to follow, it is the power to follow that ethic and it is a promise of physical resurrection, the fulfilment of that power and the justification of the choice to be righteous. And this Gospel is exactly what mankind, who in his self-determination has wandered very far from God, needs to bring him close. It is part of God's plan and not just some accident.

I know of course that some people are going to throw a load of scriptures at me seemingly contradicting this, but I just ask that before you do, please consider the logic, the reasoning behind this idea and consider if it is sane instead of jumping on words.

so for what did christ die if not to reconcile the fallen back to a relationship with God? Did then Christ die in vain? What does Ephesians 2 say to u? He made us alive who were dead in our trespasses. If we are all free to decide our own ideal what happens to Gods absolute standard as defined in His word (An all powerful, all knowing, all loving God can preserve His Word and message through the ages that explains objective moral principles that aren't created by corrupt people. God is Love. God is Truth. God is light. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. The gospel say we are given the Holy Spirit when we genuinely repent and turn from our old "fallen" ways. The Spirit empowers us, but we wrestle with the flesh (fallen selfish nature) till the death, yet we press forward daily and die to self daily and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us according to Gods will not my own fallible one.

 

[George Affleck]

If God be truely immanent then His existence would be categorically apparent; accepted effortlessly as say, our capacity to feel the very pangs of suffering itself. As such, a life dedicated to ignoring His truth would be justly punished and equally insufferable.

This is quite true in and of itself.

As it stands we exist in total ignorance to any godly existence...

This, however, is not at all the case.

The heavens declare the glory of God. Ps 19:1KJV

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:20KJV

Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another Rom 2:15KJV

God's Word is in every nightstand in every motel room.

In addition, we have pesky people like me who incessantly tell the world about Jesus.

You have to go out of your way to avoid God.

 

[fzappa13]

You, me and them.

When discussing what one believes as it concerns God the prudent might be well advised to restrict their observations to themselves. To do otherwise is, at best, both presumptuous and ignorant.

 

[aikido7]

This post is so disconnected from what I wrote as to be utterly unanswerable.

It is fact that the gospels are filled with oblique references to other tropes found in the Bible. And even references to secular ancient writing such as parts of Homer's The Odyssey.

Nice dodge, though. It's curious, isn't it, that you fail to come up with any direct questions of me. It is almost like you are using your judgement of "utterly unanswerable" to get you off the hook for engaging in adult dialogue. You are not as clueless as you pretend to be.

 

[Desert Reign]

so for what did christ die if not to reconcile the fallen back to a relationship with God?

also if perfection is only an ideal we each individually make, then what justifies an action as evil.

If someone was to see it as acceptable to be a cannibal or murderer? How can we deem their actions unacceptable unless we can agree there is some kind of REAL REFERENCE POINT to apppeal to.

The rightness or wrongness of an action is determined by its own context. If you make a rule about it, the rule can only ever be an extrapolation and will not fit all circumstances. Cannibalism in some (probably now extinct) cultures is not wrong in the culture. Of course killing other human beings merely to eat them is self-defeating but I think if you study cannibalism, you will find that it is more a ritual thing rather than a normal way of life.
But the main point is that morality arises from the context. Reality is like that. Rules of conduct are extrapolations.
And you may ask about the 10 commandments for example - what do we say about them? Well, do you keep the Sabbath? No of course you don't. So you would already admit that the 10 are not absolute. Like everything else they are contextual. 'Do not kill' doesn't apply to war. Doesn't apply to capital punishment, doesn't apply to self-defence. And so on and so on. Reality always throws up exceptions to your formulations because that is the nature of reality. It is self-defining. Rules are an attempt to define what can only be self-defined.
There is no absolute reference point. This is human maturity. To move beyond rules which are for children to an appreciation of life itself, of the reality of the world we are in.

so for what did christ die if not to reconcile the fallen back to a relationship with God? Did then Christ die in vain? What does Ephesians 2 say to u? He made us alive who were dead in our trespasses.

If we were fallen, I am sure that we could either pick ourselves up or else if that were not possible, then God could pick us up. If it were a case of us having a disease, then I am sure the disease could be cured. If it were a case of us having a congenital defect, then I am sure that God could remedy it or else we could remedy it ourselves. I mean we are surely intelligent enough are we not? But that is not the point. We are self-determining beings. And history cannot be rewritten. The simplistic notion that we have fallen from a perfect ideal human existence and only God can pick us up if he predetermines to do so, just doesn't respond to our reality. We were never meant to have an ideal existence. We were intended to be self-determined; we were intended to create our own ideals and make our own homes. This is the glory of God in creation, that he has given us this life. The Calvinistic version of salvation would have us go back to a fixed point in the past and stay there. That would truly be our death. The openness view of salvation is to give us a new future of a redeemed life in Christ.

If we are all free to decide our own ideal what happens to Gods absolute standard as defined in His word (An all powerful, all knowing, all loving God can preserve His Word and message through the ages that explains objective moral principles that aren't created by corrupt people. God is Love. God is Truth. God is light. Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life. The gospel say we are given the Holy Spirit when we genuinely repent and turn from our old "fallen" ways. The Spirit empowers us, but we wrestle with the flesh (fallen selfish nature) till the death, yet we press forward daily and die to self daily and allow the Holy Spirit to guide us according to Gods will not my own fallible one.

Yes, but the idea of holiness being conformity to a fixed ideal is an impossible goal and will always lead to frustration and failure for the reasons I gave. It is simply unattainable. This has nothing to do with us being fallen as the Calvinists would have us believe. It is just logic. It is simply the wrong choice for a goal. The Calvinist goal always entails our failure and that is what they want. They want you to always believe that you are a failure because it keeps you reliant on them. God made us to be self-determined beings and the wonderful thing about salvation is that Jesus, the son, walks with us on the paths we take in the future.

 

[fzappa13]

It is fact that the gospels are filled with oblique references to other tropes found in the Bible. And even references to secular ancient writing such as parts of Homer's The Odyssey.

Nice dodge, though. It's curious, isn't it, that you fail to come up with any direct questions of me. It is almost like you are using your judgement of "utterly unanswerable" to get you off the hook for engaging in adult dialogue. You are not as clueless as you pretend to be.

I tried to point out the spurious nature of the common understanding of a biblical passage as well as the prophetic nature of it and you respond with this ... that's okay ... I get that all the time.

 

[quip]

When discussing what one believes as it concerns God the prudent might be well advised to restrict their observations to themselves. To do otherwise is, at best, both presumptuous and ignorant.

Since it seems you've attained some heretofore unrevealed empirical proof of God's ontological status then it only seems fair to share with the rest of the class. Moreover -- if you'd be so inclined -- PLEASE school the ignorant masses' regarding their silly notions of faith as patently false, absurd and redundant....this would be of invaluble service to the entirety of humanity, mayhap ... your spiritual/prophetic duty to reveal.


I eagerly await this monumental revelation! :sinapisN:

(P.S. I didn't discuss what "one believes", I referred to what "one knows" or rather the lack thereof.)

First make sure your own house is clean before sullying up others' with your "presumptuous and ignorant" accusations. Ok? :thumb:

 

[fzappa13]

Since it seems you've attained some heretofore unrevealed empirical proof of God's ontological status then it only seems fair to share with the rest of the class. Moreover -- if you'd be so inclined -- PLEASE school the ignorant masses' regarding their silly notions of faith as patently false, absurd and redundant....this would be of invaluble service to the entirety of humanity, mayhap ... your spiritual/prophetic duty to reveal.


I eagerly await this monumental revelation! :sinapisN:

(P.S. I didn't discuss what "one believes", I referred to what "one knows" or rather the lack thereof.)

First make sure your own house is clean before sullying up others' with your "presumptuous and ignorant" accusations. Ok? :thumb:

Address what I say and I will respond in kind. Till then :rapture:

 

[Eric h]

"IF god were real, why would he spend so much time in white America answering the minutia of prayer he receives while leaving so many millions to starve to death or watch their children starve?"

Getting back to the original question, If God created the universe with the purpose of loving each and everyone of us as he loves himself, then presumably, he would not want evil to happen.

He gave us the greatest commandments, to love God, and to love our neighbours as we love ourselves, if we all truly lived by these commandments, then we would not allow children to starve to death.

It seems the evil in this world happens, when we turn away from God, the greatest commandments and his purpose for creation.

Could this really be the greatest purpose to create the universe and life? Can God love us more than he loves himself?

 

[George Affleck]

I eagerly await this monumental revelation! :sinapisN:

Jesus rose from the dead.

 

[aikido7]

I tried to point out the spurious nature of the common understanding of a biblical passage as well as the prophetic nature of it and you respond with this ... that's okay ... I get that all the time.

But I agree with you. I wasn't trying to "correct" you or make you "wrong."

I like to share my own thoughts, feelings and beliefs.

How can I do that without your feeling ignored or put down? You get those feelings from the way I communicate and I want to change those ways I use if they do not do what I hope they will do.

 

[aikido7]

Jesus rose from the dead.

His power and presence were still available to his followers, even after his death.

This fact was described and re-interpreted in many different ways by the early church. "Taken up," "Sitting at the Right Hand of God," "resurrection," were only a few of the ways the Jesus people used to make the scandal of Jesus's death on the cross meaningful to them.

Thus, the embarrassment and the despair were turned into a triumph.