ECT Get Off The Fence!

[Nang]

Condemning people for something you made them do but pretending they did it all themselves is not justice. It's sin. Defending it is idolatry.

Where does the bible teach God made Adam sin?

Do you not believe Adam chose to sin willingly?

 

[Nang]

Already responded and you keep ignoring that people can reject Christ.

All men will reject Christ by nature, and the Holy Spirit can be resisted.

But His saving grace cannot be rejected or resisted.

God's grace is always efficacious to the saving of the soul.

 

[musterion]

Where does the bible teach God made Adam sin?

Do you not believe Adam chose to sin willingly?

God had to sovereignly predestine Adam to sin, did He not?

If He didn't, He's not sovereign per the Reformed definition of that word, but only a reactionary to Man's free will choice. Thus He's not God.

If He did predestine Adam's sin, then He's the author of sin and a liar. Thus He's not God.

Pick one.

 

[Nang]

God had to sovereignly predestine Adam to sin, did He not?

If He didn't, He's not sovereign per the Reformed definition of that word, but only a reactionary to Man's free will choice. Thus He's not God.

If He did predestine Adam's sin, then He's the author of sin and a liar. Thus He's not God.

Pick one.

Since when does "predestine" mean "cause?"

 

[musterion]

Since when does "predestine" mean "cause?"

Poltroon.

 

[Tambora]

OK, we tagged each other.

But how can sinners' due wages for their sins be paid except through death? Jesus died our death in our stead.

His resurrection from our death penalty paid, is the legal basis and grounds for our receiving His imputed righteousness and life.

The death of Jesus Christ cannot be eliminated or played down in our proclamation of full Gospel Truth.

I don't think anyone is claiming that His death was not necessary for salvation.
But without being coupled with His resurrection, everyone would remain in the grave and would not be raised to eternal life.

What would be the point of being forgiven for sins, but remain in the grave for eternity without eternal life?

There is no eternal life without resurrection, and there is no resurrection without death.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Poltroon.

predestine - determine (an outcome or course of events) in advance by divine will

In other words, cause, or make to happen by His will.

yes, poltroon is a good word for one who denied that predestine, means cause.

 

[nikolai_42]

Already responded and you keep ignoring that people can reject Christ.

The disconnect is yours, you refuse to acknowledge that we can say no to the offer of salvation, and no that does not in any way limit God, since He is who granted us the ability to say no.

No - that's my point with "condemned already" and what the heart is (vs. what we might say or effect to will). Rejection is constant, continuous, and from the beginning. Until the Spirit of God changes a man's heart to submit to God, he won't (indeed, can't).

No one has denied that Christ via His Spirit draws people to Christ and that that has precedes any expression of faith. God still does all the leading and awakening us to truth.

When did Paul make a conscious decision to say yes to Christ? Or more to the point, when did his conscious decision contradict what his heart wanted to do (e.g. kill Christians)?

Ultimately those who do say no, will still bend their knee, acknowledge that He is God and then be separated from Him forever just like they said they wanted when they rejected Him. They get away with nothing.

 

[Doom]

I don't think anyone is claiming that His death was not necessary for salvation.
But without being coupled with His resurrection, everyone would remain in the grave and would not be raised to eternal life.

What would be the point of being forgiven for sins, but remain in the grave for eternity without eternal life?

There is no eternal life without resurrection, and there is no resurrection without death.

Exactly.

 

[Nang]

I don't think anyone is claiming that His death was not necessary for salvation.
But without being coupled with His resurrection, everyone would remain in the grave and would not be raised to eternal life.

What would be the point of being forgiven for sins, but remain in the grave for eternity without eternal life?

There is no eternal life without resurrection, and there is no resurrection without death.

I totally agree with you.

This is good and logical reasoning.

Does Doom agree with this?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Until the Spirit of God changes a man's heart to submit to God, he won't (indeed, can't).

Where has anyone denied that the Spirit is who first shows us our need for a Savior? Ive said it to you over and over, why do you keep missing it?

When did Paul make a conscious decision to say yes to Christ? Or more to the point, when did his conscious decision contradict what his heart wanted to do (e.g. kill Christians)?

When He was led to the truth, He received it instead of rejecting it. Are you suggesting that all what you call elect, have a damascus road experience directly with Christ Himself here? If, not then your example is irrelevant to anything - since most of us are led to Christ via the Spirit through the conviction of sin, like Christ said we would be.

 

[musterion]

Oh look, Nang's still ignoring my dilemma.

 

[nikolai_42]

Where has anyone denied that the Spirit is who first shows us our need for a Savior? Ive said it to you over and over, why do you keep missing it?

But I said "change", not merely "show us our need".

When He was led to the truth, He received it instead of rejecting it.

Why?

 

[Nang]

predestine - determine (an outcome or course of events) in advance by divine will

In other words, cause, or make to happen by His will.

yes, poltroon is a good word for one who denied that predestine, means cause.

The highlighted is correct. What you add to it is not.

God is the first cause of all Creation.

God created Man good and as a responsible moral agent with secondary agency to cause and effect.

God held Man accountable for not submitting his moral agency to the moral and sovereign moral agency of God.

God predestined his fate for his failure to do so.

 

[Angel4Truth]

But I said "change", not merely "show us our need".

Nothing about a man changes untill they receive Christ, the conviction of the Spirit isnt what changes us, our reception of the Truth (faith in Christ) is.

Why?

How does one deny what they see with their own eyes? Your example is irrelevant to this conversation again unless you are saying all you Calvinists have a Damascus road experience, where Christ Himself instead of the Spirit, speaks to you.

Is that what you are claiming, you glossed over it when i asked before.

 

[Nang]

Exactly.

Well, if you agree, I suggest you use Tam's language regarding the death and purpose of the cross work of Jesus next time.

You made it sound like you denied the efficacy of His blood sacrifice for sin.

If you agree with Tam's words, a big difference between us can be settled.

 

[Nang]

Nothing about a man changes untill they receive Christ, the conviction of the Spirit isnt what changes us, our reception of the Truth (faith in Christ) is.

"Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." John 1:13

 

[Tambora]

I totally agree with you.

This is good and logical reasoning.

Yay!
It's the word of God.

1 Corinthians 15
(14) And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.

(17) And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
(18) Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
(19) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.​

Does Doom agree with this?

Of course.
He's a smart man!

 

[Doom]

Well, if you agree, I suggest you use Tam's language regarding the death and purpose of the cross work of Jesus next time.

I did. She said the same thing. The death of Jesus does not save anyone. The problem is not what has been said, but that you don't understand the gospel.

I repeatedly stated that His death is what makes it possible for us to be saved by His life. His death was sufficient (a propitiation) for all men. That makes it "necessary". Sheeesh,

You made it sound like you denied the efficacy of His blood sacrifice for sin.

Nope. You just make His death insufficient for all men, and ONLY efficient for those God chooses to be saved.

 

[Tambora]

Well, if you agree, I suggest you use Tam's language regarding the death and purpose of the cross work of Jesus next time.

You made it sound like you denied the efficacy of His blood sacrifice for sin.

If you agree with Tam's words, a big difference between us can be settled.

The point I see him making is that you can preach the cross till the cows come home; but without the resurrection, your faith in the cross can't save you with eternal life.