ECT Get Off The Fence!

[Doom]

The point I see him making is that you can preach the cross till the cows come home; but without the resurrection, your faith in the cross can't save you with eternal life.

That too!

The point of the thread is that those who teach that Jesus only died for the sins of those who are saved, are preaching another gospel. His death was for all sin, of all men, for all time. To "limit" His sacrifice to only some men and some sin, is an egregious error.

 

[Nang]

I did. She said the same thing. The death of Jesus does not save anyone.

Next time say, "The death of Jesus alone, does not save anyone."

The problem is not what has been said, but that you don't understand the gospel.

I repeatedly stated that His death is what makes it possible for us to be saved by His life. His death was sufficient (a propitiation) for all men. That makes it "necessary". Sheeesh,

Nope. You just make His death insufficient for all men, and ONLY efficient for those God chooses to be saved.

I believe the death of Jesus was 100% sufficient to justify many. Romans 5:19

And Jesus Christ is given authority to give eternal life to as many as the Father gave Him to redeem and to whom He wills. John 5:21, 17:2, 7-10, 24-25

Jesus did not even pray for the whole world, let alone die for the whole world. John 17:9

 

[musterion]

To "limit" His sacrifice to only some men and some sin, is an egregious error.

No. It is blasphemy.

 

[Doom]

No. It is blasphemy.

Again, thanks for the correction. :cheers:

 

[john w]

Next time say, "The death of Jesus alone, does not save anyone."






I believe the death of Jesus was 100% sufficient to justify many. Romans 5:19

And Jesus Christ is given authority to give eternal life to as many as the Father gave Him to redeem and to whom He wills. John 5:21, 17:2, 7-10, 24-25

Jesus did not even pray for the whole world, let alone die for the whole world. John 17:9

John 3:16 KJV
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Clavinist/Calvinist version, as they assert that "the world" here means, "the world of the elect:"

For God so loved the world of the elect, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever of the world of the elect believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Clavinism/Calvinism: There are some amongst the world of the elect, who will not believe.

Got it. Straight jacket time-that is the result of wicked Clavinism/Calvinism

 

[Doom]

Next time say, "The death of Jesus alone, does not save anyone."

I said it correctly the first time. The death of Jesus was for ALL men. Not all men are saved, so while His death is necessary for any man to be saved, it does not save anyone.

I believe the death of Jesus was 100% sufficient to justify many. Romans 5:19

And Jesus Christ is given authority to give eternal life to as many as the Father gave Him to redeem and to whom He wills. John 5:21, 17:2, 7-10, 24-25

Jesus did not even pray for the whole world, let alone die for the whole world. John 17:9

I'm quite aware of what you believe.

 

[Nang]

I said it correctly the first time. The death of Jesus was for ALL men. Not all men are saved, so while His death is necessary for any man to be saved, it does not save anyone.






I'm quite aware of what you believe.

What do you make of John 5:21 that reveals Christ's authority to choose who will live?

 

[Doom]

What do you make of John 5:21 that reveals Christ's authority to choose who will live?

He tells us in John 5:24

“Most assuredly, I say to you, she who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

 

[Nang]

He tells us in John 5:24

“Most assuredly, I say to you, she who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

So Jesus Christ is a reactionary?

 

[elohiym]

To "limit" His sacrifice to only some men and some sin, is an egregious error.

Consider this: The sin of unbelief is not forgiven; one has to believe, logically. Other sins in addition to unbelief will be punished in the end (Rev 21:8). Men who do not forgive others are not forgiven (Mt 6:15; Luke 7:47). "Many are called but few are chosen" (Mt 22:14). Why wouldn't someone reasonably think atonement is limited in some sense based on those ideas?

 

[elohiym]

What do you make of John 5:21 that reveals Christ's authority to choose who will live?

Similarly, when he sent them to preach the gospel, Jesus told his disciples to go to houses that were worthy. What would be the criteria the disciples would use to know if a house was worthy or unworthy?

Matthew 10:11-13 And whatever city or village you enter, inquire who is worthy in it, and stay at his house until you leave that city. As you enter the house, give it your greeting. If the house is worthy, give it your blessing of peace. But if it is not worthy, take back your blessing of peace.

The Son gives life to whom He will, in that sense; He discerns who is worthy and chooses to share the good news with them.

 

[Doom]

Other sins in addition to unbelief will be punished in the end (Rev 21:8). Men who do not forgive others are not forgiven (Mt 6:15; Luke 7:47). "Many are called but few are chosen" (Mt 22:14). Why wouldn't someone reasonably think atonement is limited in some sense based on those ideas?

I'm not certain I'm following you.

I am one that does not equate the death of Jesus with forgiveness. In order to receive the forgiveness one must be in Him. Forgiveness is in Christ, in His life. If you are dead, all that Christ is and has will never be yours.

 

[john w]

So Jesus Christ is a reactionary?

So, the LORD God is a moron, like his Clavinist alleged "elect," for even incuding this, in His book?:

2 Peter 3 KJV
9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.




Clavinst version:


9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, the elect, not willing that any of the elect should perish, but that all of the elect should come to repentance.

Pleading for "the elect" to come to repentance? "long suffering?" Why? The "elect" are "in like flint."

all of the elect should come to repentance.


So, some of "the elect" are in danger of not coming to repentance?

That is the jazz of the Clavinist.




I know...I know....Bah....It does not mean that....You say God is not sovereign....My church SOF tells me so....


"not willing that any should perish"

Clavinist: But that does not override Him "rolling the dice," you see, well, uh, urr...


Cricket.

 

[Nang]

He tells us in John 5:24

“Most assuredly, I say to you, she who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life."

Please note: The promises therein are all put in the present tense, not future. Evidencing everlasting life and escape from judgement of death are effects, not cause.

The cause is the grace of God applied to sinful souls in regeneration.

 

[Nick M]

You made it sound like you denied the efficacy of His blood sacrifice for sin.

He said no such thing you child of the devil. Your reconciliation through deception will not work with him. He knows what you are.

 

[Nang]

He said no such thing you child of the devil. Your reconciliation through deception will not work with him. He knows what you are.

This has been thoroughly discussed and resolved, Nick.

You hate just to hate it seems, and the slightest attempt at agreement spoils your adversarial MO.

Your problem, not mine . . . accuser.

 

[elohiym]

I'm not certain I'm following you.

I am one that does not equate the death of Jesus with forgiveness. In order to receive the forgiveness one must be in Him. Forgiveness is in Christ, in His life. If you are dead, all that Christ is and has will never be yours.

There is much we agree on, but I'm trying to understand better how you view the efficacy of the cross, how it applies to every man to deal with his sin. One could see ideas the Lord Jesus taught as making atonement limited in some sense, just not in the sense of a cosmic lottery or unjust favoritism; atonement has to be available to all men.

I think we agree that before we are raised to life we are dead in sin. If that is true, why was I dead in sin if sin was dealt with at the cross almost 2000 years ago, especially if Jesus died for my personal sins in any sense? How do you explain that?

 

[Doom]

There is much we agree on, but I'm trying to understand better how you view the efficacy of the cross, how it applies to every man to deal with his sin. One could see ideas the Lord Jesus taught as making atonement limited in some sense, just not in the sense of a cosmic lottery or unjust favoritism; atonement has to be available to all men.

I think we agree that before we are raised to life we are dead in sin. If that is true, why was I dead in sin if sin was dealt with at the cross almost 2000 years ago, especially if Jesus died for my personal sins in any sense? How do you explain that?

Are you asking why anyone born today has indwelling sin, if Jesus dies for all sin?

Still not sure I understand your question.

All men are dead (even those born today) because of the sin of Adam. The death of Jesus for our sins, does not remove sin from the flesh. It simply gives opportunity for all men to receive His life and be separated (circumcised) from the flesh. Before we receive His life we are still separated from God (dead) and in the flesh. When we receive His life, we are now one spirit with Him and no longer in the flesh. If Jesus had not resolved the sin issue we would have no access to God. The Way to God is through Jesus, and only through Jesus. By believing the Gospel we are accepting His sacrifice for our sins.

Ask me more questions if I'm not covering the one you asked.

 

[MaxGrit]

Romans 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls—

Matthew 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.

Matthew 24:24 For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

Matthew 24:31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Romans 8:33 Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.

Romans 11:7 What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

 

[MaxGrit]

2 Peter 1 (ESV)

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence,

10 Therefore, brothers, be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election

James 2

5 Listen, my beloved brothers, has not God chosen those who are poor in the world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom,which he has promised to those who love him?

8 But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder!