General question for all TOL religious people

jamie

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LIFETIME MEMBER
That is dealing with the manner in which authority is exercised (i.e. "lording it over"), not with the question of whether there is authority there or not. Otherwise, Paul would not have had the authority to judge those he did in the Corinthian church.

Paul was disappointed that the congregation didn't judge itself.

In 1 Corinthians 5:2 NET Paul said, "And you are proud! Shouldn't you have been deeply sorrowful instead and removed the one who did this from among you?"

Paul went on to explain in verse 11: "But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who calls himself a Christian who is sexually immoral, or greedy, or an idolater, or verbally abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person."

There are some on TOL who are verbally abusive.
 

nikolai_42

Well-known member
Paul was disappointed that the congregation didn't judge itself.

In 1 Corinthians 5:2 NET Paul said, "And you are proud! Shouldn't you have been deeply sorrowful instead and removed the one who did this from among you?"

Paul went on to explain in verse 11: "But now I am writing to you not to associate with anyone who calls himself a Christian who is sexually immoral, or greedy, or an idolater, or verbally abusive, or a drunkard, or a swindler. Do not even eat with such a person."

There are some on TOL who are verbally abusive.

And that goes to manner of authority. Paul still had authority in the church, but the way he prosecuted it was far different than that of (since you mention it) the Papacy. Never mind that they teach different things...
 

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
No, I am is all I need to focus on, the outward need for a hero/saviour to come rescue me has long faded into the shadows of the allegory that spawned it, seeing the whole story of Christ within is for everyone to discern inwardly

Hey Zeke,

Your post reminds me of some writings I have read by Deepak Chopra, Alice Schutz, and C.S. McClintock.

Some of what they believe is that Jesus isn't God, we are God because the "I AM" lives within all of us, reincarnation is true, evil doesn't exist, sin doesn't exist, and hell doesn't exist.

They basically believe in a spiritual narcissism and the self-divinization of man. We are all God and we just need to let that bloom. It is a spiritually dangerous position to hold.

I hope I am wrong but your post sounds along those lines.

Zeke, "I AM" came as an outward hero/saviour to save all of us and His name is Jesus Christ. Yes, He will live within His children. And yes, He came as the human incarnation of God. If we want to focus on "I AM" we should focus on Him. Jesus. The person.

So I am curious. You obviously believe there is no spiritual authority over you. But I wonder...who is Jesus to you?

Peace.
 

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
Some people here are missing the point. I'm just wanting to know who believes God has set a living person or persons over you--persons whom God expects you to OBEY out of obedience to Him?

Hey Musterion.

I do and I think it is biblical to think so.

1. Jesus said He was going to build His Church. (Matthew 16:18). It is Jesus' Church.

2. Jesus shares His authority with the leaders of His Church. (Luke 10:16) and (Matthew 18:17).

3. Jesus again gives his authority to the leaders of His Church with the instructions to teach all nations everything He commanded. (Matthew 28:19-20)

4. The Apostles didn't get the job done. They didn't (couldn't) go to all nations. (No offense to our LDS friends but I don't believe there is good evidence that Jesus appeared in the Americas.
) But the Apostles successors and theirs, etc. could. There is evidence of this in 2 Timothy 2:2 where the four "successors" are mentioned by Paul. Himself, Timothy, others, who will teach others.

The leaders of Jesus' Church cannot do those things unless they have spiritual leadership and authority. And they do and it was given to them by Jesus Christ Himself.

I mean, how can they teach others to obey Jesus' commands if they don't have any authority to do that? They can't.

I think a key question (for me anyways) is has that situation that Jesus established in the 1st century changed and if it has is there biblical evidence to support the change? My conclusion is no. There is no biblical evidence to support that I can say something like "Jesus' Church or not Jesus' Church...nobody has spiritual authority over me." I don't see support for that biblically.

And for that to happen, Jesus would have to have failed to protect His Church and it would have to have been overcome by the enemy. But He is God and He said He would be with us throughout the ages until the end so He didn't fail and His Church has continued to exist since the 1st century.

So who has that authority? The leaders of Jesus' Church.

Of course, that leads to a totally different question...how can I find Jesus' Church? But that is a different topic.

Peace.
 

musterion

Well-known member
So who has that authority? The leaders of Jesus' Church.

Of course, that leads to a totally different question...how can I find Jesus' Church? But that is a different topic.

Actually it isn't; that goes right along with this topic.

So who has God placed in authority over you?

Just as importantly -- how do you (or would you) know they are the ones God intends you to subject yourself to? How does one verify that someone's claim to God-given authority is indeed from God?
 

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
Actually it isn't; that goes right along with this topic.

So who has God placed in authority over you?

Just as importantly -- how do you (or would you) know they are the ones God intends you to subject yourself to? How does one verify that someone's claim to God-given authority is indeed from God?

I would like to continue this conversation with you, Musterion. You have brought up an interesting topic.

But first, since I have told you my position on your question...would you mind answering the question you put out to us? What is your position on the question you put forth?

What is your position on the Scriptures that I mentioned in my last post?

Thanks.
 

musterion

Well-known member
As a mid-Acts dispensationalist, I believe the miraculous sign gifts seen in Acts and described by Paul in his letters to the Corinthians -- primarily intended as a witness against unrepentant Israel -- have been deactivated. All of them. That also includes the "ministry gifts" he lists elsewhere. I believe God is no longer "calling" anyone into any kind of ministry or anything else whatsoever. That was a function in the founding of the early church which as such basically disintegrated and ceased to exist before Paul died, what with all in Asia having abandoned him and his doctrine.

That means believers today are considered full-grown, adult children of God, not spiritual children in need of pastoring, much less sheep in need of shepherding. Maturity comes in God's time to each individual and can certainly be influenced by other believers but is not dependent upon other believers.

For these reasons, I believe there is no human individual who has God-given spiritual authority over the soul, faith or walk of any other believer today. Each stands or falls before His own Master. During apostolic times such human authorities were in place, but no longer.

That's my belief on the matter. A few mid-Acts disps here on TOL agree with it but I don't think all do. And that's okay.
 

Bard_the_Bowman

New member
Ok.

So we sortof have two questions (or so) before us, I think.

Since I believe the authority Jesus gave to His Church continues....my question(s) would be is that true and if so, where can I find Jesus' Church?

Since you believe the authority Jesus gave to His Church didn't continue....a question might be is that true and if so, why not? (Which you already addressed in your last post.)

I would like to respond to you. I will as time permits (I'm juggling several things right now.)

Peace.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
Since I believe the authority Jesus gave to His Church continues...

There's the problem right there. The church is not a military structure where there is rank. Jesus did not give authority for anyone to rule over another, what he gave the Twelve is the authority to legislate for the church. Does your congress representative have authority to rule over you?

Jesus did not say we must serve multiple masters and teachers and obey whatever they tell us to do.

Church leaders are to shepherd Christ's people and protect them from wolves, especially wolves that can be mistaken for sheep.

In Revelation 2:6 NET Jesus says, "But you do have this going for you: You hate what the Nicolaitans practice - practices I also hate."

And again in verse 15 he says, "In the same way, there are also some among you who follow the teaching of the Nicolaitans."

Don't do it, don't allow anyone or anything over you spiritually other than Jesus Christ and our Father's word.
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Hey Zeke,

Your post reminds me of some writings I have read by Deepak Chopra, Alice Schutz, and C.S. McClintock.

Some of what they believe is that Jesus isn't God, we are God because the "I AM" lives within all of us, reincarnation is true, evil doesn't exist, sin doesn't exist, and hell doesn't exist.

They basically believe in a spiritual narcissism and the self-divinization of man. We are all God and we just need to let that bloom. It is a spiritually dangerous position to hold.

I hope I am wrong but your post sounds along those lines.

Zeke, "I AM" came as an outward hero/saviour to save all of us and His name is Jesus Christ. Yes, He will live within His children. And yes, He came as the human incarnation of God. If we want to focus on "I AM" we should focus on Him. Jesus. The person.

So I am curious. You obviously believe there is no spiritual authority over you. But I wonder...who is Jesus to you?

Peace.

That is tradition speaking not the intent of the "timeless" message of you/me being the temple of God! which is the teaching of Jesus and Paul, my influences have been through the while range of theology, first the fundy prophetic scene on through 2 to 28 Dispensationlism, universalism, to Alvin Boyd Kuhn's writings etc.., all have played a part in my progression from an outward saviour to the meat of that being within man, Galatians 4:20-28 isn't about two physical siblings in the past but an on going metaphor within those called to wake up at this time, Romans 8:1 through the inward witness not some flesh and blood sacrifice that you have been programmed to except that God who is spirit would need literal blood to appease him/her.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
...not some flesh and blood sacrifice that you have been programmed to except that God who is spirit would need literal blood to appease him/her.

Does our Father (referred to as him) require flesh and blood sacrifices today?
 

Zeke

Well-known member
Does our Father (referred to as him) require flesh and blood sacrifices today?

No, and never did, men have been deceived into taking "type" for literal history when its only allegorical teachings Galatians 4:24, Jesus represents the inner man from above 1Cor 15:44 John represented the natural man earthy Matt 11:11, slain/fallen/seed/sent/pearl in the field/flesh before the foundation of the world which predates the divine seeds existence in a tomb of flesh ignorant of their heritage Galatians 4:1,/flesh profits nothing in the spiritual realm so any sacrifice that the Spirit would except wouldn't include flesh and blood, the conscience is the unseen kingdom that God deals with not this temporal school yard for adolescent souls ruled by emotion and ego.
 

jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER

I'll take that as a no. However...

In Romans 12:1 NET Paul says, "Therefore I exhort you, brothers and sisters, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a sacrifice - alive, holy, and pleasing to God - which is your reasonable service."

The Father required Jesus Christ to sacrifice his life for us and he requires us to sacrifice our life to him as a living sacrifice.

Paul said that is reasonable.
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
As a mid-Acts dispensationalist, I believe the miraculous sign gifts seen in Acts and described by Paul in his letters to the Corinthians -- primarily intended as a witness against unrepentant Israel -- have been deactivated. All of them. That also includes the "ministry gifts" he lists elsewhere. I believe God is no longer "calling" anyone into any kind of ministry or anything else whatsoever. That was a function in the founding of the early church which as such basically disintegrated and ceased to exist before Paul died, what with all in Asia having abandoned him and his doctrine.

That means believers today are considered full-grown, adult children of God, not spiritual children in need of pastoring, much less sheep in need of shepherding. Maturity comes in God's time to each individual and can certainly be influenced by other believers but is not dependent upon other believers.

For these reasons, I believe there is no human individual who has God-given spiritual authority over the soul, faith or walk of any other believer today. Each stands or falls before His own Master. During apostolic times such human authorities were in place, but no longer.

That's my belief on the matter. A few mid-Acts disps here on TOL agree with it but I don't think all do. And that's okay.

Bingo. :thumb:
 

musterion

Well-known member
Since I believe the authority Jesus gave to His Church continues....my question(s) would be is that true and if so, where can I find Jesus' Church?

Correct. Since such authority would presumably also be over me and everyone else, the onus is on you to show we who don't see it (a) who and where it is today, and (b) how you know that is the authority God wants all believers in subjection to.

You have the mic.
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
If there is a living human on earth who you believe has spiritual authority* over you, who is that person?

*meaning it's God's will for you to somehow be under them or answerable to them; they likewise will ultimately answer to God for how they exercised their authority over you.
What is spiritual authority and how does that compare to physical authority?
 

TulipBee

BANNED
Banned
1. If I am married my husband has spiritual authority over me.



1 Cor. 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does;

1 Cor. 7:4 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy. 15 Yet if the unbelieving one leaves, let him leave; the brother or the sister is not under bondage in such cases, but God has called us to peace. 16 For how do you know, O wife, whether you will save your husband? Or how do you know, O husband, whether you will save your wife?

1 Cor. 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

Eph. 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

So, yes, I believe every Christian husband will answer for his treatment of his wife. His leadership is to help her to be holy and without blemish.
Does that mean women can't be pastors?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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Does that mean women can't be pastors?

Yes.

Unfortunately, that does not prevent it from happening as there are churches where the teachings of Scripture (1 Tim 3:1-7) on the matter are simply ignored or badly interpreted. The matter is not cultural, but is grounded in the creation and the fall (1 Tim 2:13). Some appeal to Galatians 3:28 with some sort of egalitarian interpretive lens, the same lens that is used to justify homosexuality. Sigh.

See also:
http://www.apuritansmind.com/pastors-study/the-public-preaching-of-women-by-r-l-dabney/

http://www.apuritansmind.com/pastor...king-in-the-church-by-dr-benjamin-b-warfield/

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Is-it-wrong&p=2981829&viewfull=1#post2981829

http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?80701-toldailytopic-Women-preaching-from-the-pulpit-Is-it-wrong/page28&p=2981869#post2981869

http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...-Is-it-wrong&p=2984304&viewfull=1#post2984304

and the rest of my posts in that thread: http://theologyonline.com/search.php?searchid=258705

AMR
 
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