From chat: On Jesus and Homosexuality

[Tattooed Theist]

Jesus broke the oral law (their traditions and incorrect interpretations of His law) before them, because they were the laws of man, He never broke the mosaic law given in scripture, if He broken even one, He would not have been an unblemished lamb without spot, suitable for sacrifice for sin.

1 Peter 2:22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

2 Corinthians 5:21
God made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.

Sin is a transgression of the law. 1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.

1 Peter 1:19 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.

Exodus 12:5 'Your lamb shall be an unblemished male a year old; you may take it from the sheep or from the goats.

Hebrews 9:14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Leviticus 20:10
"'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

John 8:4-11
and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women.Now what do you say?” 6They were using this question as a trap,in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, “Let any one of you who is without sin be the first to throw a stone at her.” 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?”

11“No one, sir,” she said.

“Then neither do I condemn you,”Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.”

We are not under the law, but its very important to understand that Christ broke no law or He could not have been Messiah.

He did break the law. Law is to stone adulterers, this is not what He did.
The interpretation then would be to understand that the reason He didn't actually break the law is because that was no longer Law under His covenant.



I never said Jesus "sinned," I aware Jesus cannot sin or He could not fulfill messianic prophecy.
Rather what I'm saying is that Jesus' purpose was to bring in a New Covenant, in which this would not longer be a Law, therefor not a sin, therefor Jesus did not sin. Instead He displayed a new example of behavior and understanding of a New Covenant.

 

[Tambora]

Tambora, I have some verses for you too

:cheers:

1 Corinthians 6

Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Good a start as any.
I'll comment on this one for now, so the posts don't get too long.
And because my old eyes are getting tired, and I need to stop somewhere since there are lots of posts I need to respond to here in this thread and others.

1 Corinthians 6:9-12 KJV
(9) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
(10) Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
(11) And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
(12) All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.​

Here's my perspective.

It is true the unrighteous will not inherit.
Once you have the righteousness of Christ, you are no longer one of them.
There is no sin that you have done or will do that was not on the cross with Christ.
He bore our sin, not us.
He paid for our sin, not us.
It is His righteousness, not ours, that saves.

For an added bonus, take note of verse 12.

All things are lawful unto me (let that sink in real good), but not all things are expedient (not all things are beneficial to me).

I'll give my perspective.

No sin I commit can remove me from the Body of Christ, because it is His righteousness that was imputed to me.
But just because all things are lawful for me to do, doesn't mean that doing those things will be beneficial.
I'll give a life example of the same principle:

All speed limits are lawful, but it's not beneficial to drive 120mph through a busy school zone.
No law says you can't drive 120mph through a school zone, but it is not beneficial to do so.
Doing so could cause some unnecessary problems for you and others, but you cannot be arrested for driving that fast.

​

Paul expressed the same principle when he argued that he could lawfully eat all things, but would not do so in a household that felt some foods were unclean (even though Paul knew it was lawful for him to do so).

Paul also expressed this same principle when he argued that sinning more would not grant you additional grace.
Some were under the impression that since you are given grace for your sins, then sinning more will bring you MORE grace.
Paul made it clear that grace does not abound when sin abounds.
This is also reminiscent of the parable Jesus told of the workers.
All workers were given the same payment no matter how many hours they worked .
Those that worked only a few hours got the same payment as those that worked several hours.


Thanks for taking the time to join the study.
It's good to get other perspectives regardless if we draw the same conclusion.

​

 

[marhig]

It is "Antinomianism."

The belief that professed believers in God and salvation by His grace, are exempt from living in accord with His Holy standards and commands (Law).

I had to google that one

No I don't agree with that belief, if we truly belong to God, then his laws are written in our hearts and in our minds and the holy spirit will be teaching us to turn from sin every day. I believe that we are to obey God and live by his will, and not by the will of our flesh.

 

[glorydaz]

Quote: You can put any sin in and fill the blank, the conclusion is the same

What???? I'm afraid you're very wrong, we are to repent, and to repent means to turn from that sin, not that we can carry on sinning and we're going to heaven regardless, all because Jesus died for us whilst we are sinners. What kind of teaching is that?

No, we don't carry on with the sin, any person committing acts such as child molestation, gay sex etc wont inherit the kingdom of God whilst that are still committing the act and they certainly aren't saved, nor are they saved whilst they carried on sinning like that, you'll know those who are being saved by their fruits and they won't be committing vile acts!

The way you believe is deeply flawed, you need to go back and read the Bible again, God wants us to turn from sin once we know him

The only thing you said right there is, the wages of sin is death. And so it is. We can't carry on sinning and committing vile acts once we know the living God. Because he will turn us over to a reprobate mind and we will be dead to him again, back in darkness away from God.

By the way, if your not going from bad to better through Christ, then you're not saved and you don't have the holy spirit. If we have the holy spirit in our heart, then we should be overcoming sin and our heart should be being cleansed. And if not and you're still living by the lusts of your flesh, then you'll still be dead with no life in you!

You're the one who is confused. Those who believe unto salvation are new creatures. Created IN Christ Jesus. We are then His workmanship and are confident He will perform the good work He began in us. If we doubt that, then we do not have a saving faith. Faith in ourselves and our own ability to obey is a false faith in the wrong person.

 

[jamie]

He did break the law. Law is to stone adulterers, this is not what He did.

Only if convicted, otherwise presumed innocent.

Jesus was not a court of law.

 

[glorydaz]

I'm just totally shocked how anyone can believe that we can carry on sinning and be committing vile acts and believe that not only are we reconciled to God whilst we are doing them, but that we are saved and going to heaven whilst carrying on with the act???

What kind of teaching is that? I've never heard of anything like it! It's not of God that's for sure!

When the love of God has been shed abroad on our hearts, we hate evil as much as our Lord does. I'm not sure why people think that not being under the law tempts us to commit vile acts. It's actually just the opposite.

 

[Tattooed Theist]

Only if convicted, otherwise presumed innocent.

Jesus was not a court of law.

I do not read that in the context of Leviticus 20:10

Are you reading something I'm not seeing?

"'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife--with the wife of his neighbor--both the adulterer and the adulteress are to be put to death.

Commit is not convict, I would know, I've commit many crimes in my life but only convicted of one.
:chuckle:

 

[patrick jane]

It is "Antinomianism."

The belief that professed believers in God and salvation by His grace, are exempt from living in accord with His Holy standards and commands (Law).

That's Calvinism

 

[marhig]

There is no sin that you have done or will do that was not on the cross with Christ.

See this is what I mean, you don't know what future sins you'll commit. And what if people who believe as you do, (I mean in your church), commit child sex abuse, are they still saved regardless? Are they still going to heaven because they are once saved always saved? How can anyone believe that people who do such wicked acts are saved regardless and that no sin, whatever it is can turn them away from God and God away from them?

 

[Nang]

That's Calvinism

No, Antinomianism is lawlessness.

Calvinists believe in Sola Fide and Solis Gratias, but they also teach and adhere to the "Third Use of God's Law" as their moral guide in this life.

 

[Tambora]

I'm just totally shocked how anyone can believe that we can carry on sinning and be committing vile acts and believe that not only are we reconciled to God whilst we are doing them, but that we are saved and going to heaven whilst carrying on with the act???

What kind of teaching is that? I've never heard of anything like it! It's not of God that's for sure!

Feel free to tell me which list of sins were not placed on the cross with Christ.

 

[Nang]

See this is what I mean, you don't know what future sins you'll commit. And what if people who believe as you do, (I mean in your church), commit child sex abuse, are they still saved regardless? Are they still going to heaven because they are once saved always saved? How can anyone believe that people who do such wicked acts are saved regardless and that no sin, whatever it is can turn then away from God and God away from them?

But MADISTS believe since they have been saved by God's grace, they are now as sinless as He.

They deny that the law of sin remains in their members.

 

[Nang]

Feel free to tell me which list of sins were not placed on the cross with Christ.

Quote the "list of sins" that were placed on the cross with Christ, from God's Word.

 

[jamie]

I do not read that in the context of Leviticus 20:10

Are you reading something I'm not seeing?

Deuteronomy 19:15 NET A single witness may not testify against another person for any trespass or sin that he commits. A matter may be legally established only on the testimony of two or three witnesses.​

 

[marhig]

You're the one who is confused. Those who believe unto salvation are new creatures. Created IN Christ Jesus. We are then His workmanship and are confident He will perform the good work He began in us. If we doubt that, then we do not have a saving faith. Faith in ourselves and our own ability to obey is a false faith in the wrong person.

Well you tell that to Tambora, because according to her, no sin that we do can turn us from God once were saved.

Also I'm not confused, and I agree with what you have posted here, but we are to turn from sin, we can't just keep living our own life and think that it's ok with God. And you will know those who are new creatures created in Christ. Because they will be overcoming the flesh, turning from sin and you will see the works of God in their lives. You will see Christ in them and you will know them by their fruits. If they're not overcoming the flesh, then they're not born of God and they're not walking in the spirit.

 

[marhig]

When the love of God has been shed abroad on our hearts, we hate evil as much as our Lord does. I'm not sure why people think that not being under the law tempts us to commit vile acts. It's actually just the opposite.

I'm going by what has been written on this thread, that even if we carry on sinning we are ok, and no matter what sin we do it doesn't matter we are still saved. Sorry, but I don't agree with that.

 

[Nang]

I'm going by what has been written on this thread, that even if we carry on sinning we are ok, and no matter what sin we do it doesn't matter we are still saved. Sorry, but I don't agree with that.

The Christian has been absolved of all guilt of sins through the penal and substitutionary death of Jesus Christ in his stead, but that does not mean, that very same saved soul, is no longer called to live holy, as his Savior is holy.

Justification leads to Sanctification . . Not to a life of lawlessness nor dismissal and disregard of God's moral standards (Law).

 

[marhig]

Feel free to tell me which list of sins were not placed on the cross with Christ.

I don't believe in the cross in the same way as you do. Any denomination that teaches that we're ok to sin and that all my sins including future sins, regardless what they are, are nailed the cross of Christ is a false church! I believe that we are saved through faith by the grace of God as taught in the Bible. And that our past sins that are done in ignorance whatever they are are forgiven once we truly repent and turn to God. And once we know God we are to deny ourselves and turn from those sins and bare our cross, following Jesus. And through Christ, God will strengthen us and by the spirit and he will give us the strength to overcome Satan and our flesh.

I believe that God forgives us when we are in ignorance, but once we know the truth, then he will judge us on that.

As Jesus said to the pharasees, that because they said that they see, there sin remains. If we know we are sinning, then we are to stop and turn away from that sin and obey the living God not carry on thinking we are saved anyway!

 

[Tambora]

You're the one who is confused. Those who believe unto salvation are new creatures. Created IN Christ Jesus. We are then His workmanship and are confident He will perform the good work He began in us. If we doubt that, then we do not have a saving faith. Faith in ourselves and our own ability to obey is a false faith in the wrong person.

This is a good point.

The BOC is a new creation.

There are two different words used in the Greek NT to describe "new".

One is kainos.
One is neos.

Neos is in respect to age --- new born baby, brand new car, etc. (something you did not have before).

Kainos is in respect to condition --- pristine, unblemished, spotless. (doesn't matter how long you have had it).


Now, you can be neos, but not kainos.
A brand new car can be defective (blemished in some way). If it's defective, it is not kainos.

Or you can be both neos and kainos.
A brand new car that is pristine, no blemishes.

Or you can be kainos, but not neos.
You can wash, starch, and iron an old shirt (making is pristine, but it's not a new (neos) shirt).


The "new" creature that we become in the BOC is kainos. (2 Cor 5:17 and Gal 6:15)
Doesn't matter how old you were when you were saved into the BOC (like an old shirt cleaned up).
What you become is kainos --- pristine, without blemish, spotless.
There has only ever been one that was always without blemish and spotless --- Christ.
It is the newness (kainos) of Christ that is imputed to us.
We did not clean ourselves up before we could be saved, for Christ saved us WHILE we were sinners.
And it is that salvation by grace that saved us and imputed the kainos of Christ to us.
What is even more amazing is that the verb tenses denote a perpetual condition, meaning that once you have been imputed the pristine righteousness of Christ, you remain forever in that condition. It never changes.
And it has nothing to do with any self righteousness you thought you had accumulated.

 

[Tambora]

I don't believe in the cross in the same way as you do.

I can see that.
No problem for me.
I won't bother you with my perspective anymore.
I'm going to rely on the righteousness of Christ.
His grace is sufficient for me.