From chat: On Jesus and Homosexuality

[clefty]

Really? God comes and audibly instructs you do this every time?

No no no...I get texts...with updates, out takes, and other revisions...the Law keeps changing ya know...gotta keep up...

Which doesn't really get to the reason Moses is different from the rest of us, and why Moses' sin didn't prevent him from entrance into heaven.

Wasn't even addressing that...was addressing specific days and specif actions were indeed required and any diversion from it was disobedience and came with a consequence...Israelites were killed for a man hiding his loot...

Some around here are hiding loot as well...and individual disobedient or deceptive acts even lead others astray

Oh, so that's why 1 John 2:2 says that Christ made a "thanks offering" for the sins of the whole world?

Notice the word used is something more than sacrifice...covering mercy substitute...kinda like when we use someone else's money to cover our bar tab...we are naturally grateful...

Isaiah prophesied to Israel about the Old Covenant regarding their exile. You're using that out of context.

Am I? Sin separates us from Holy since the garden...

Google isn't my bible.

yeah nevermind...wouldn't want you to twist or break the Internet too...it's a tool that could point you to salvation like the scriptures and the Law...

This is about the first sin, Adam's sin, and about the basis for judgment against us, not sin post-faith.

Improper application of scripture.

lol...big sin, little sin, known sin, sin of omission...go and sin no more...

As if an unrepentant sin post faith would be acceptable...

I believe you brought up Romans 12:1 earlier.

And the one sin that doomed us all was pre-salvation. Doesn't work that way anymore.

How does it work then...my one sin dooms me it may not doom the world but it very well may cause someone else to stumble as well...

Hmmm stumble...notice the concern is not limited to actually fall but merely stumble...

I'm with the gospel of Christianity and of Christ. What one are you preaching?

Being so nonchalant and cavalier about one little bitty sin not mattering so much is diminishing the amazing completeness of the Gospel...certainly minimizes the need for its thoroughness...

Seems in your gospel little sins will be tolerated come judgement day...perhaps you have no need for His propriation at all...

 

[glorydaz]

My cross faces many of my sins and there's suffering too bare too, what do you believe that Jesus meant when he those who don't take up their cross are not worthy of me? What is baring your cross to you? It certainly does carry hardships, if it doesn't, then your not baring yours! If Jesus is confirming us into the image of his glory, then we are changing and we are dying for him to live, and if we are changing, then we are partaking in his sufferings and if we are suffering then we are baring hardships and baring our cross as he bore his. If we are denying ourselves and baring our cross then we are following Jesus and we are his and worthy of him.

My past sins we're forgiven when I repented and I was saved through faith by the grace of God. I am to now turn from those sins that I've been forgiven of, not sin them again, I am to turn from wilful sinning and if I do sin go to God and repent, and put it right with the person i sinned against if that's needed. And none of this would be possible without Christ and Gods holy spirit within, without God it would be impossible. I'd still be dead in my sins and blind, deaf and dumb and in darkness, I am nothing without God and nothing i do to overcome is of myself.

Jesus didn't tell us to deny ourselves for no reason. What do you think he means by if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me?

All our sins are forgiven when we believe....not just sins that are past. In 1 Cor. 15, Paul is speaking of there being a resurrection from the dead. He says he dies daily because of the persecutions he suffers for the gospel's sake, and how our physical life is fleeting. Did you notice how many times you used the word "I" in your paragraph above? That looks to me like "self" being responsible for all those present and future sins you haven't recognized as being taken care of by the cross of Jesus Christ. You say nothing you do to overcome is of yourself, but you keep talking about having to repent again when you fail. That makes no sense. It sounds like you're trusting in yourself while saying you don't. :idunno:

 

[marhig]

All our sins are forgiven when we believe....not just sins that are past. In 1 Cor. 15, Paul is speaking of there being a resurrection from the dead. He says he dies daily because of the persecutions he suffers for the gospel's sake, and how our physical life is fleeting. Did you notice how many times you used the word "I" in your paragraph above? That looks to me like "self" being responsible for all those present and future sins you haven't recognized as being taken care of by the cross of Jesus Christ. You say nothing you do to overcome is of yourself, but you keep talking about having to repent again when you fail. That makes no sense. It sounds like you're trusting in yourself while saying you don't. :idunno:

Paul did suffer persecution for the gospels sake yes, and that is part of baring his cross, but he had to die daily to bare it. Because if paul had of been living in the flesh, he would have been off living his own life. Dying daily means not living to please ourselves every day, but living to please God, and we are guided by the spirit and not by the flesh, the flesh is what we are to deny and overcome and the holy spirit strengthens us to do this. But it's not all easy going, if we truly follow Jesus, then we will suffer in many ways. And this includes laying down our lives to bring God to others. And how is repenting and turning to God trusting in myself? Not a chance would i trust in myself I'd fail at the first hurdle, I can't do anything without the strength of God and Christ within. Without the holy spirit, I'm dead!

Everybody should be repenting when we fail, don't you go God and say sorry if you've done wrong? I'm always going to him for everything. Even the lord's prayer teaches us to ask for forgiveness when we forgive others. So yes, I do still repent when I sin. Because I will always sin whilst I am in this flesh, but hopefully by the strength of God, I'm not going out there and doing it purposely!

Jesus talks about death to self in John 21 once we are born of God, we then don't walk in the flesh anymore, but we walk after the spirit, and he covers us and takes us to where our flesh wouldn't go, to do things we would never do. Because we are dead to our old life and dying every day, being put to death by the spirit. And through this death, we glorify God because others see God and Christ in us and not our flesh.

John 21

Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. This spake he, signifying by what death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me

Below shows that we are saved from our past sins through having faith in Christ and believing in the truth. We are then to turn from sin and obey the living God and if we truly belong to him, then we will be overcoming the flesh through Christ, by the spirit.

Romans 3

Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

 

[Ben Masada]

From chat On Jesus and Homosexuality.

How about a thread on Paul and Homosexuality? Jesus was not a Hellenist Jew. Hellenists were known for being Amoral. If you see the last movie "Alexander", you will understand how common was in Greek culture to marry and stay married with a woman and a gay-man. Homosexual acts in parties, right there in public was blatant. People would deal with it as if it was the most common thing to do. Now, as Paul was concerned, he was a Hellenist Jew and, if you read Romans 7:1-25, his thorn in the flesh was clearly described as his struggle against repressed homosexual feelings. I am not saying that he was active in the practice of the custom but, the struggle to keep himself away was akin to a thorn in his flesh. So much so that in Romans 7:25 he confessed to honor the Law in his mind while serving sin in his flesh. And, as he said, there was nothing he could do as he was under the control of his sinful condition.

 

[Angel4Truth]

From chat On Jesus and Homosexuality.

How about a thread on Paul and Homosexuality?

Make one if you like, i wanted to comment on something in chat when i made this one.

Jesus was not a Hellenist Jew. Hellenists were known for being Amoral. If you see the last movie "Alexander", you will understand how common was in Greek culture to marry and stay married with a woman and a gay-man. Homosexual acts in parties, right there in public was blatant. People would deal with it as if it was the most common thing to do. Now, as Paul was concerned, he was a Hellenist Jew and, if you read Romans 7:1-25, his thorn in the flesh was clearly described as his struggle against repressed homosexual feelings. I am not saying that he was active in the practice of the custom but, the struggle to keep himself away was akin to a thorn in his flesh. So much so that in Romans 7:25 he confessed to honor the Law in his mind while serving sin in his flesh. And, as he said, there was nothing he could do as he was under the control of his sinful condition.

I disagree completely, this has nothing to do with the thread either, and also believe Pauls thorn was his eyesight which scripture bears out.

 

[marhig]

From chat On Jesus and Homosexuality.

How about a thread on Paul and Homosexuality? Jesus was not a Hellenist Jew. Hellenists were known for being Amoral. If you see the last movie "Alexander", you will understand how common was in Greek culture to marry and stay married with a woman and a gay-man. Homosexual acts in parties, right there in public was blatant. People would deal with it as if it was the most common thing to do. Now, as Paul was concerned, he was a Hellenist Jew and, if you read Romans 7:1-25, his thorn in the flesh was clearly described as his struggle against repressed homosexual feelings. I am not saying that he was active in the practice of the custom but, the struggle to keep himself away was akin to a thorn in his flesh. So much so that in Romans 7:25 he confessed to honor the Law in his mind while serving sin in his flesh. And, as he said, there was nothing he could do as he was under the control of his sinful condition.

Why on earth would you think that Paul was a homosexual from those verses? Why do you think that?

 

[themuzicman]

No no no...I get texts...with updates, out takes, and other revisions...the Law keeps changing ya know...gotta keep up...





Wasn't even addressing that...was addressing specific days and specif actions were indeed required and any diversion from it was disobedience and came with a consequence...Israelites were killed for a man hiding his loot...

Since you've finally conceded my original point, we'll just leave this here

 

[Ben Masada]

Why on earth would you think that Paul was a homosexual from those verses? Why do you think that?

You missed the line where I said: "Am not saying that he was active in the practice of homosexuality" I implied that the struggle to keep himself away was akin to a thorn in his flesh if you read Romans 7:1-25. Then, you must consider that Paul never married in his life and lived with another bachelor called Barnabas almost all his life. Besides, he would advise the young men of his time not to marry and keep away from women. Why! That's why the honorable ladies of Antioch ganged up against them and expelled them out of their neighborhood.

 

[Ben Masada]

Make one if you like, i wanted to comment on something in chat when i made this one.

I disagree completely, this has nothing to do with the thread either, and also believe Pauls thorn was his eyesight which scripture bears out.

Oh Angel! So, you were the one who made the thread about the chat on Jesus and Homosexuality! No Angel, I think you made a mistake for two or three reasons: At that time in Israel, a Jewish man would start planning on his marriage from the time he became Bar-Mitzvah. Then, Jesus was a married man. He got married with Mary Magdalene in Cana of the Galilee. Paul yes, he was never married and, he lived with another bachelor-for-life called Barnabas. Besides, Paul would advise the young men of his time not to marry and to keep themselves away from women. That's the reason why the honorable women of Antioch ganged up against them and expelled them from their neighborhood.

 

[Ben Masada]

Make one if you like, i wanted to comment on something in chat when i made this one.

I disagree completely, this has nothing to do with the thread either, and also believe Pauls thorn was his eyesight which scripture bears out.

If you focus on Romans 7:8-25, Paul's thorn in the flesh was a sinful condition not a physical one.

 

[Angel4Truth]

If you focus on Romans 7:8-25, Paul's thorn in the flesh was a sinful condition not a physical one.

False and anyone who reads that in conext sees it has nothing to do with what you are trying to force it into.

 

[Crucible]

Hellenists were known for being Amoral.

Much like the 1st World Jews today. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

To be a Hellenist was to be Babylonian according to the conservative Jews of the time; coined 'Babylon' to avoid prosecution from the Gentiles. That hasn't changed much either

False and anyone who reads that in conext sees it has nothing to do with what you are trying to force it into.

Blonde hair is frowned upon at feminist rallies. You should be more concerned with what really matters instead of wasting your time with the ramblings of near-ancient misogynists :wave:

 

[marhig]

You missed the line where I said: "Am not saying that he was active in the practice of homosexuality" I implied that the struggle to keep himself away was akin to a thorn in his flesh if you read Romans 7:1-25. Then, you must consider that Paul never married in his life and lived with another bachelor called Barnabas almost all his life. Besides, he would advise the young men of his time not to marry and keep away from women. Why! That's why the honorable ladies of Antioch ganged up against them and expelled them out of their neighborhood.

Ben how on earth you have come to thinking that the thorn in Paul's flesh was him being gay is beyond me? From reading that scripture, I can't see that at all in any way whatever! And what's being single got to do with being gay? My uncle gave up his whole life for God, including women, he had girlfriends, but he became a lay preacher and God came first, he said it was a life that you couldn't live with a family. He certainly wasn't gay.

You need to stop your character assassination of Paul, you seem to constantly twist things about him and you sound really hard against him, one day you will have to face God for the things you say. Paul was a very strong apostle of God, you just don't like him because he spoke the truth about the Jewish leaders of that time, those who you can see no fault in, even though they murdered Jesus through envy and knowing it's a sin to kill yet they underhandedly killed him, doing whatever they could to make sure the act was done even though he was innocent, even pilate could see that he didn't deserve to die so did the thief on the cross, but they, through their false accusations put him to death getting the Romans to do the deed because they had a law where it was wrong to kill. So they knew it was a sin. They murdered the holy son of God, the prince of peace and you defend them? You should look at your own before you rip Paul to pieces because they were full of wickedness!

 

[clefty]

Since you've finally conceded my original point, we'll just leave this here

Lol...your original point was:

Quote Originally Posted by jamie View Post
To continue in faith requires being faithful in what a person says and does.

You said:

As a whole, yes, not in every individual act. There's nothing there about losing your salvation for individual acts of sin.

Now which sin can remain unconfessed and unrepented?

Moses was not allowed into the promise land...was he unrepentant? I believe he was not...but still he had to die as a lesson for Israel...one individual act does that

It is believed he entered heaven...was he repentant? My belief he was is affirmed as I don't think it is easier to get into heaven than Israel...

Hmmm wait as a goy maybe it is easier...lol

Well anyways...we certainly are not allowed into heaven with one individual act of sin left on our record...

BTW-Had Yahushua failed in His mission of salvation both Moses and EliYah would have had to return...to die

No wonder they appeared to encourage and support...they were in Heaven by a promised grace...it was He that provided the proof they could remain...

Now finally even their sin could be actually passed over...

 

[Angel4Truth]

Blonde hair is frowned upon at feminist rallies. You should be more concerned with what really matters instead of wasting your time with the ramblings of near-ancient misogynists :wave:

Stop focusing on my hair and take your own advice.

 

[themuzicman]

Lol...your original point was:



Now which sin can remain unconfessed and unrepented?

For Christians in general, this is not a salvation issue. We ought to confess and repent, because it is part of maturing in Christ, but neither of these are the basis for our salvation.

Moses was not allowed into the promise land...was he unrepentant? I believe he was not...but still he had to die as a lesson for Israel...one individual act does that

Thus, if we use Moses as an example, one sin condemns every Christian to hell, without the possibility of return, just as Moses, in spite of confession and repentance, was unable to be restored.

That's not a pattern of the general idea of sin, but rather a specific consequence for a person in Moses' position in disobeying God in a specific manner.

It is believed he entered heaven...was he repentant? My belief he was is affirmed as I don't think it is easier to get into heaven than Israel...

Thus putting an end to your argument that Moses' act has anything to do with the salvific doctrine of sin for Christians,

Hmmm wait as a goy maybe it is easier...lol

Well anyways...we certainly are not allowed into heaven with one individual act of sin left on our record...

There is no record. We are justified because of Christ's act and the fulfillment of the requirement of faith. Nothing more. Nowhere in Scripture are we told that salvation is lost with each sin, and every instance of salvation is based upon receiving justification by grace through faith.

BTW-Had Yahushua failed in His mission of salvation both Moses and EliYah would have had to return...to die

No wonder they appeared to encourage and support...they were in Heaven by a promised grace...it was He that provided the proof they could remain...

Now finally even their sin could be actually passed over...

Just as our sin is passed over, and there is no condition of "confession" required.

 

[freelight]

Sin beyond sexuality..................

Sin beyond sexuality..................

Oh wow he said Paul was gay LMAO!!! He's really out there. Paul is a good man. Not a sinner like Ben presumes.

As if 'goodness' could be determined by one's sexual preference or identity, ....not really. One can assume a GLBTQ person is either 'good' or 'evil' on so many grounds, just as any other class of person. Also, you don't know that Paul was NOT gay, beyond your own assumptions. Per Paul's gospel,....we are all sinners (he was chief!), and even went on about how his struggle with the flesh was about hopeless, beyond his 'faith' in Christ to somehow 'deliver' him from this struggle of the flesh. All this was some exercise of faith in a 'spiritual' or cosmic Christ figure,....whether this happened in his own experience as some kind of 'soul-transformation' is speculative, but being a gnostic using allegorical code-language...of course these had deeper esoteric meanings. The whole 'in Christ' concept was some spiritual renewal/transformation in man, being an archetypal pattern of the soul's own process of death, burial, resurrection, ascension.....and so on.

A good portion of my posts responding to A4T's response to my chat-comment are in the first 5 pages of the thread, if you haven't read already. God loves all his children, regardless of gender or sexuality.

Jesus did refer to 'eunuchs', and that some were born that way. See here.

 

[freelight]

Jesus also said it wasn't ok soooo checkmate

Where did he specifically say such? Don't forget his comment on eunuchs. These would be exceptions to the male/female procreative union functions between a man and a woman. Again, Jesus nowhere mentions what we understand or define as homosexuality, except possibly with the eunuchs passage.

 

[marhig]

As if 'goodness' could be determined by one's sexual preference or identity, ....not really. One can assume a GLBTQ person is either 'good' or 'evil' on so many grounds, just as any other class of person. Also, you don't know that Paul was NOT gay, beyond your own assumptions. Per Paul's gospel,....we are all sinners (he was chief!), and even went on about how his struggle with the flesh was about hopeless, beyond his 'faith' in Christ to somehow 'deliver' him from this struggle of the flesh. All this was some exercise of faith in a 'spiritual' or cosmic Christ figure,....whether this happened in his own experience as some kind of 'soul-transformation' is speculative, but being a gnostic using allegorical code-language...of course these had deeper esoteric meanings. The whole 'in Christ' concept was some spiritual renewal/transformation in man, being an archetypal pattern of the soul's own process of death, burial, resurrection, ascension.....and so on.

A good portion of my posts responding to A4T's response to my chat-comment are in the first 5 pages of the thread, if you haven't read already. God loves all his children, regardless of gender or sexuality.

Jesus did refer to 'eunuchs', and that some were born that way. See here.

God does love all of us, every single one, but he wants us to turn from sin and that includes homosexually. It's a sin to commit such an act before the living God.

And Ben insinuated that Paul was gay because of the scripture regarding the thorn in his flesh. There is nothing whatsoever there to mean that Paul was gay. It simply means that he was going through suffering at that time.