From chat: On Jesus and Homosexuality

[Tattooed Theist]

"sin no more" has always intrigued me

how do you do that?


(absent grace, and grace hadn't been given at that point)

That's the goal isn't it? To not sin?
Of course we will, but aren't we called to walk like Christ? Which would be sinless.

 

[ok doser]

That's the goal isn't it? To not sin?
Of course we will, but aren't we called to walk like Christ? Which would be sinless.

but isn't He commanding her to meet an unachievable goal?

 

[Angel4Truth]

Interesting because they didn't wait.
He told her to run off and sin no more...

You mean he told her that she had no accusers. They all left remember? Ive already shown also that under the law, they both had to be present, the adulterer and the adulteress. They weren't. Then not only were both not present, there remained no accusers.

You can pretend you dont get it, but its clear, the law was never followed in that case, which is HOW they tried to trap Him.

Jesus violated no law.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't believe in the cross in the same way as you do. Any denomination that teaches that we're ok to sin and that all my sins including future sins, regardless what they are, are nailed the cross of Christ is a false church! I believe that we are saved through faith by the grace of God as taught in the Bible. And that our past sins that are done in ignorance whatever they are are forgiven once we truly repent and turn to God. And once we know God we are to deny ourselves and turn from those sins and bare our cross, following Jesus. And through Christ, God will strengthen us and by the spirit and he will give us the strength to overcome Satan and our flesh.

I believe that God forgives us when we are in ignorance, but once we know the truth, then he will judge us on that.

As Jesus said to the pharasees, that because they said that they see, there sin remains. If we know we are sinning, then we are to stop and turn away from that sin and obey the living God not carry on thinking we are saved anyway!

Unfortunately, with that thinking, you leave room for boasting. Which is exactly what the pharisees did. Thank God I am not as sinful as others! We are saved according to HIS mercy...not according to how sinless and obedient we might think we are. That should make you rejoice in His mercy, and it's why He will receive all the glory.

 

[glorydaz]

That's the goal isn't it? To not sin?
Of course we will, but aren't we called to walk like Christ? Which would be sinless.

The only way man can "not sin" is to be freed from the law, which is why Paul tells us that Christ is the "end of the law for righteousness".

 

[clefty]

The only way man can "not sin" is to be freed from the law, which is why Paul tells us that Christ is the "end of the law for righteousness".

Freed from the consequence/curse of the Law not freed from the Law itself...it remains...we establish it...keep it if we love Him..

and Christ is the goal of the law of righteousness...regret poor translation deceives so many

 

[glorydaz]

Freed from the consequence/curse of the Law not freed from the Law itself...it remains...

and Christ is the goal of the law of righteousness...regret poor translation deceives so many

No, Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. That's what it means to be justified by faith. The law remains for the purposes it was given and no more than that. It was not given to make us righteous.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saves us. Titus 3:5KJV



The law was never intended to justify men, or make men holy, or give us life. It was given to show men what sin is, find them guilty before God, and lead them to Christ for salvation.

 

[Tattooed Theist]

but isn't He commanding her to meet an unachievable goal?

You mean he told her that she had no accusers. They all left remember? Ive already shown also that under the law, they both had to be present, the adulterer and the adulteress. They weren't. Then not only were both not present, there remained no accusers.

You can pretend you dont get it, but its clear, the law was never followed in that case, which is HOW they tried to trap Him.

Jesus violated no law.

Y'all might wanna read the below quote.
Very enlightening on the topic.

The only way man can "not sin" is to be freed from the law, which is why Paul tells us that Christ is the "end of the law for righteousness".

Agreed.

 

[clefty]

No, Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. That's what it means to be justified by faith. The law remainsfor the purposes it was given and no more than that. It was not given to make us righteous.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saves us. Titus 3:5KJV



The law was never intended to justify men, or make men holy, or give us life. It was given to show men what sin is, find them guilty before God, and lead them to Christ for salvation.

Ok phew! It remains...and like everything else made at creation it was to lead us to Christ...especially after the fall...

Is why we want to keep it...establish it Paul says...faith in action

Otherwise how would we show He created us found us...saved us?

 

[marhig]

Unfortunately, with that thinking, you leave room for boasting. Which is exactly what the pharisees did. Thank God I am not as sinful as others! We are saved according to HIS mercy...not according to how sinless and obedient we might think we are. That should make you rejoice in His mercy, and it's why He will receive all the glory.

I don't know why you think that. Self denial is going against the flesh which is going against pride. And if we have the holy spirit then he will be making us more humble and a won't look down at others, and through Christ by the spirit we will be strengthened to overcome such things as pride.

I know I'm no better than anyone. If it wasn't for God I know exactly what I'd be like and I can't look down at anyone else. I certainly don't see myself as elect. and predestined to go heaven and others predestined for hell. That in itself is self righteous.

I'm a sinner saved through faith by the grace of God and I'm just an unprofitable servant. I'm not better than anybody. In fact I know that I would be worse than many others if God wasn't saving me and giving me the strength to overcome my flesh every day, I've got no right to look down at anyone.

 

[marhig]

Y'all might wanna read the below quote.
Very enlightening on the topic.



Agreed.

When we belong to God, he writes his laws upon our hearts and in our minds and then we establish the law.

We still follow Gods laws, he doesn't change, only now we don't have to follow by the letter but by the spirit and we worship God in spirit and in truth. The laws teach us regarding sin, but the spirit not only teaches within, but our hearts are cleansed by him giving us the strength to overcome. And we have a choice, to obey him or deny him. If we obey then we please God, if we deny him we please our flesh. We have freewill to choose, obey God or obey sin and Satan.

 

[jamie]

The law was never intended to justify men, or make men holy, or give us life. It was given to show men what sin is, find them guilty before God, and lead them to Christ for salvation.

True, the Father's intention for giving the law to his firstborn son was to guide them into lives of order and peace.

It was never suggested that the law was intended by the Father for salvation.

Paul affirmed this.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Y'all might wanna read the below quote.
Very enlightening on the topic.



Agreed.

And you might want to start adressing actual context, you and i were discussing your claim that Jesus didn't follow all of the law and mentioned that woman caught in adultery. He followed the law to the letter. He who said not one jot or tittle would be removed from it till all was fufilled, He violated no point of it.

 

[glorydaz]

Ok phew! It remains...and like everything else made at creation it was to lead us to Christ...especially after the fall...

Is why we want to keep it...establish it Paul says...faith in action

Otherwise how would we show He created us found us...saved us?

Establishing the law does not mean to "keep it" as in obedience to it. It is speaking of it's purpose in justifying us through faith. The obedience of faith is not obedience to the law. Romans 3:31KJV makes it clear Paul is talking about justification, not law keeping.

Faith in action is believing and trusting in the Lord and not in our own righteousness. When people see our faith is in Christ instead of ourselves, boasting is excluded and He gets all the glory.

 

[glorydaz]

I don't believe in the cross in the same way as you do. Any denomination that teaches that we're ok to sin and that all my sins including future sins, regardless what they are, are nailed the cross of Christ is a false church! I believe that we are saved through faith by the grace of God as taught in the Bible. And that our past sins that are done in ignorance whatever they are are forgiven once we truly repent and turn to God. And once we know God we are to deny ourselves and turn from those sins and bare our cross, following Jesus. And through Christ, God will strengthen us and by the spirit and he will give us the strength to overcome Satan and our flesh.

I believe that God forgives us when we are in ignorance, but once we know the truth, then he will judge us on that.

As Jesus said to the pharasees, that because they said that they see, there sin remains. If we know we are sinning, then we are to stop and turn away from that sin and obey the living God not carry on thinking we are saved anyway!

I don't know why you think that. Self denial is going against the flesh which is going against pride. And if we have the holy spirit then he will be making us more humble and a won't look down at others, and through Christ by the spirit we will be strengthened to overcome such things as pride.

I know I'm no better than anyone. If it wasn't for God I know exactly what I'd be like and I can't look down at anyone else. I certainly don't see myself as elect. and predestined to go heaven and others predestined for hell. That in itself is self righteous.

I'm a sinner saved through faith by the grace of God and I'm just an unprofitable servant. I'm not better than anybody. In fact I know that I would be worse than many others if God wasn't saving me and giving me the strength to overcome my flesh every day, I've got no right to look down at anyone.

I say that about boasting because I notice your boasting. "Your cross" carries no sins...it only carries hardships that come upon you in this life. Whatever the Lord does while conforming you into His image is all to His glory. And although you seem to be trying not to boast, your saying that your "future" sins weren't taken care of by our Lord on the cross is expressing a doubt of His work that shouldn't be there. Perhaps I'm reading what you said incorrectly? Are you saying your overcoming sin plays a roll in forgiveness of sin?

 

[clefty]

Establishing the law does not mean to "keep it" as in obedience to it. It is speaking of it's purpose in justifying us through faith. The obedience of faith is not obedience to the law. Romans 3:31KJV makes it clear Paul is talking about justification, not law keeping.

Faith in action is believing and trusting in the Lord and not in our own righteousness. When people see our faith is in Christ instead of ourselves, boasting is excluded and He gets all the glory.

?

Faith compels obedience...we obey because we are saved not to become saved...gratitude for being saved

Yahushua did not say "keep my commandments" in order to be saved...but if you love Him.

By faith Noah obeyed and built the ark...and was saved...

We are living sacrifices that establishing His Law wherever we go...

 

[themuzicman]

We are indeed told to do specific acts at specific times...like today we are to rest...heal and worship...post the good news on forums to find and spread like minded joy...so happy Sabbath!

Really? God comes and audibly instructs you do this every time?

His whole calendar of festivals are to be done as a memorial to what was done for us and still point to the good things to come...

Not to save us but because we believe He already saved us...

Which doesn't really get to the reason Moses is different from the rest of us, and why Moses' sin didn't prevent him from entrance into heaven.

His death at Passover was exactly in the spirit of that festival...it is a thank offering to spare the world from the coming wrath of His jealous Father...His wrath burns against sin and we must be covered by His son's blood to be passed over on the final day of wrath...

And true to that sacrifice being only for sins of omission...His son prayed "forgive them for they DO NOT know what they do"...even as He was being killed by them He spared them from a greater wrath...for sins they did not even know they committed...Romans soldiers, as they though, had no skin in the game but that wrath will include even them...they should be thankful for what was said and done there at their feet. Passover remains a thank offering...not a sin offering...

Oh, so that's why 1 John 2:2 says that Christ made a "thanks offering" for the sins of the whole world?

Is 59:2 But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

Isaiah prophesied to Israel about the Old Covenant regarding their exile. You're using that out of context.

Google more yourself...

Google isn't my bible.

Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into this world, and through sin, death; so also death was transferred to all men, to all who have sinned.

What is more corruptible than desth? All of the sacrificial system and Laws are to teach us to cleanse and purify and restore us to our unfallen uncorrupted state...and then to finally learn that only belief in the spilled blood of One sacrifice will we ACTUALLY be transformed...

This is about the first sin, Adam's sin, and about the basis for judgment against us, not sin post-faith.

Improper application of scripture.

you thought of that text not me...I was still going on about how only one individual sin started this whole plan of salvation rolling...that one individual sin it doomed us all...of course we need Him for one sin alone...

I believe you brought up Romans 12:1 earlier.

And the one sin that doomed us all was pre-salvation. Doesn't work that way anymore.

Awww thanks...



Peter and John make a bold scene about this in Acts 4 they declare He is

the cornerstone.’ 12Salvation exists in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.”



So we good? One sin mattered...even if done in ignorance

Not really sure what type of believer or belief you are here with...another gospel?

I'm with the gospel of Christianity and of Christ. What one are you preaching?

 

[Tambora]

If his grace is sufficient for you,

No "if".

2 Corinthians 12:9 KJV
(9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

If you're born of God, then you'll have the fruits of the spirit.

Spirit in contrast to flesh.

Romans 7:18-25 KJV
(18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
(20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



Romans 8:8 KJV
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

 

[marhig]

I say that about boasting because I notice your boasting. "Your cross" carries no sins...it only carries hardships that come upon you in this life. Whatever the Lord does while conforming you into His image is all to His glory. And although you seem to be trying not to boast, your saying that your "future" sins weren't taken care of by our Lord on the cross is expressing a doubt of His work that shouldn't be there. Perhaps I'm reading what you said incorrectly? Are you saying your overcoming sin plays a roll in forgiveness of sin?

My cross faces many of my sins and there's suffering too bare too, what do you believe that Jesus meant when he those who don't take up their cross are not worthy of me? What is baring your cross to you? It certainly does carry hardships, if it doesn't, then your not baring yours! If Jesus is confirming us into the image of his glory, then we are changing and we are dying for him to live, and if we are changing, then we are partaking in his sufferings and if we are suffering then we are baring hardships and baring our cross as he bore his. If we are denying ourselves and baring our cross then we are following Jesus and we are his and worthy of him.

My past sins we're forgiven when I repented and I was saved through faith by the grace of God. I am to now turn from those sins that I've been forgiven of, not sin them again, I am to turn from wilful sinning and if I do sin go to God and repent, and put it right with the person i sinned against if that's needed. And none of this would be possible without Christ and Gods holy spirit within, without God it would be impossible. I'd still be dead in my sins and blind, deaf and dumb and in darkness, I am nothing without God and nothing i do to overcome is of myself.

Jesus didn't tell us to deny ourselves for no reason. What do you think he means by if any man will come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me?

 

[marhig]

No "if".

2 Corinthians 12:9 KJV
(9) And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Can you give me the all of what I said context of the word "if" there please and not just that portion. Thanks

Spirit in contrast to flesh.

Romans 7:18-25 KJV
(18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
(19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
(20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
(21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
(22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
(23) But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
(24) O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
(25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.



Romans 8:8 KJV
(8) So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

I totally agree, I don't know why you've quoted that to me, why wouldn't you think I would agree to that? I say it often enough. And that's absolutely true, they that are in flesh, cannot please God, we have to die the death and by the spirit die daily to the lusts of the flesh and sin and be born anew of God. The lusts of the flesh have to go, the spirit wars against the flesh and the flesh cannot please God, it has has to go. Paul doesn't mean that it's ok and that he can carry on sinning!

What do you believe Paul meant when he said "i die daily?"