Free will is simply....

[JudgeRightly]

LOL, a tome...
1) Re-read Joshua 29

Um... Joshua only has 24 chapters.

cause it ain't say in what you think it's sayin.
2) From before the foundation of the world is from before time was created.

Nope. That's platonic thinking.

The "Foundation of the world" is another name for the creation event in Genesis 1.

"Before [creation]" simply means just that. BEFORE creation. "Before" is a word that only has meaning if there is time. Time is a prerequisite of creation.

3) God is always Sovereign (past, present, future, out-of-time) and yes...humans are helpless and hopeless without God choosing to save them.

So, 'before' there was anything other than God (ie, creation), what was God sovereign over?

As for the rest of what you wrote, I have no reply because I don't have the time or the care to read it...

Refusal to consider an argument for your opponent's position, and then arguing against that position seems rather shallow, doesn't it?

so I suggest you learn how to edit. [emoji56]

What does me knowing how to edit (edit what? you didn't specify) have to do with anything?

 

[MennoSota]

Um... Joshua only has 24 chapters.



Nope. That's platonic thinking.

The "Foundation of the world" is another name for the creation event in Genesis 1.

"Before [creation]" simply means just that. BEFORE creation. "Before" is a word that only has meaning if there is time. Time is a prerequisite of creation.



So, 'before' there was anything other than God (ie, creation), what was God sovereign over?



Refusal to consider an argument for your opponent's position, and then arguing against that position seems rather shallow, doesn't it?



What does me knowing how to edit (edit what? you didn't specify) have to do with anything?

Whatever
Nope
Himself
God tells us He chooses, predestines and elects. God shows us from Genesis to Revelation that He chooses, predestines and elects.
Ya gotta be a non-observant, philosophy minded, human who refuses God's Sovereign authority to miss God's ordained will upon all things.
If ever philosophy has been injected into Christianity, it is the philosophy of free-will. God never teaches it...anywhere...in the Bible. It is an entirely man-made concept. More so, it is a slap in the fave of God as rebels try to resist God's Sovereignty. I'm sure God laughs at the foolishness displayed by free-will thinking.

 

[Idolater]

Whatever
Nope
Himself
God tells us He chooses, predestines and elects. God shows us from Genesis to Revelation that He chooses, predestines and elects.
Ya gotta be a non-observant, philosophy minded, human who refuses God's Sovereign authority to miss God's ordained will upon all things.
If ever philosophy has been injected into Christianity, it is the philosophy of free-will. God never teaches it...anywhere...in the Bible. It is an entirely man-made concept. More so, it is a slap in the fave of God as rebels try to resist God's Sovereignty. I'm sure God laughs at the foolishness displayed by free-will thinking.

How is it possible to 'try to resist God's Sovereignty,' since God is sovereign? It must be an illusion, according to you.

The fact is, that if God possesses exhaustive, definite power/sovereignty over His creation (which I do believe), then there is only one correct explanation as to how that works with human freedom, and that is the Church's authorized teaching on the matter of Divine Providence, which integrates perfectly together both God's sovereignty and man's free will.

Text 303 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (among other Texts regarding Providence):
"The sacred books powerfully affirm God's absolute sovereignty over the course of events: "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases." And so it is with Christ, "who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens." As the book of Proverbs states: "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will be established."

 

[JudgeRightly]

Whatever

So what's your point?

Nope

Yep.

Himself

So, basically your claim is meaningless. Gotcha.

God tells us He chooses, predestines and elects.

I AGREE!

However, let's consider for a moment the nation of Israel, also known as "God's Elect Lady."

How often did God choose them for a task, only for that task to never be done?

God shows us from Genesis to Revelation that He chooses, predestines and elects.

I agree.

But none of those times does it mean for salvation or eternal life. It ALWAYS means elect, chosen, predestined to do a task.

Ya gotta be a non-observant, philosophy minded, human who refuses God's Sovereign authority to miss God's ordained will upon all things.

Proof by assertion fallacy?

The onus is on you to prove your claim, because you're the one making the claim.

If ever philosophy has been injected into Christianity, it is the philosophy of free-will. God never teaches it...anywhere...in the Bible. It is an entirely man-made concept. More so, it is a slap in the fave of God as rebels try to resist God's Sovereignty. I'm sure God laughs at the foolishness displayed by free-will thinking.

Jeremiah, Jonah, and many others in both the Old and New Testaments would disagree with you.

The philosophy that has been injected into the Bible is that of greek paganism, that God cannot change (He does, for example: the incarnation of Christ), that He cannot be affected by emotions (many times He was moved by prayer), that He has all power (He has delegated some power and authority to earthly entities), that He knows everything (He uses phrases like "now I know" and even came to experience what it was like to be a human), that He is everywhere at once (He will cast those who reject Him into the lake of Fire, where they will be separated from Him (ergo, He won't be where they are) for the rest of eternity). Those "omni-"s and "im-"s of greek paganism are not taught in the Bible.

 

[MennoSota]

How is it possible to 'try to resist God's Sovereignty,' since God is sovereign? It must be an illusion, according to you.

The fact is, that if God possesses exhaustive, definite power/sovereignty over His creation (which I do believe), then there is only one correct explanation as to how that works with human freedom, and that is the Church's authorized teaching on the matter of Divine Providence, which integrates perfectly together both God's sovereignty and man's free will.

Text 303 in the Catechism of the Catholic Church (among other Texts regarding Providence):
"The sacred books powerfully affirm God's absolute sovereignty over the course of events: "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases." And so it is with Christ, "who opens and no one shall shut, who shuts and no one opens." As the book of Proverbs states: "Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the LORD that will be established."

Resistance is futile...
You were born in sin, you will die in sin...unless God chooses to save you.
God is not obligated to save you. You are at his mercy. You dangle by a thread over the flames. Only God can reach in and save you from perishing. No amount of free-will can save you. May God be merciful.

 

[MennoSota]

So what's your point?



Yep.



So, basically your claim is meaningless. Gotcha.



I AGREE!

However, let's consider for a moment the nation of Israel, also known as "God's Elect Lady."

How often did God choose them for a task, only for that task to never be done?



I agree.

But none of those times does it mean for salvation or eternal life. It ALWAYS means elect, chosen, predestined to do a task.



Proof by assertion fallacy?

The onus is on you to prove your claim, because you're the one making the claim.



Jeremiah, Jonah, and many others in both the Old and New Testaments would disagree with you.

The philosophy that has been injected into the Bible is that of greek paganism, that God cannot change (He does, for example: the incarnation of Christ), that He cannot be affected by emotions (many times He was moved by prayer), that He has all power (He has delegated some power and authority to earthly entities), that He knows everything (He uses phrases like "now I know" and even came to experience what it was like to be a human), that He is everywhere at once (He will cast those who reject Him into the lake of Fire, where they will be separated from Him (ergo, He won't be where they are) for the rest of eternity). Those "omni-"s and "im-"s of greek paganism are not taught in the Bible.

Easy.
God teaches election, his choosing and predestination. Not once does God teach free-will. It ain't found in the Bible. It is found in philosophy.
Your turn.

 

[Idolater]

Resistance is futile...

That was my point.

You were born in sin, you will die in sin...unless God chooses to save you.
God is not obligated to save you. You are at his mercy. You dangle by a thread over the flames. Only God can reach in and save you from perishing. No amount of free-will can save you. May God be merciful.

Nothing except free will keeps anybody from believing in Christ---believing the Gospel that He is risen from the dead.

 

[MennoSota]

That was my point.
Nothing except free will keeps anybody from believing in Christ---believing the Gospel that He is risen from the dead.

Nope. Romans 3 tells us that "no one seeks God, not even one."
Left to ourselves, we will drop into Hell in full rebellion.
We were born in rebellion and we will die in rebellion. This was set by Adam. No free-will necessary.
In every instance, God pulls the human out of hiding.
You are making up "free-will" from the figment of your imagination.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Easy.
God teaches election, his choosing and predestination.

Can you tell me what the election, choosing, and predestination is for? Is it ever for salvation? and if so, is it ever for a specific person?

Not once does God teach free-will. It ain't found in the Bible. It is found in philosophy.
Your turn.

Try Jeremiah 18:

The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying:“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.”Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel.And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.“Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ” - Jeremiah 18:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah18:1-11&version=NKJV

Question for you: does God make idle threats?

 

[Idolater]

Nope. Romans 3 tells us that "no one seeks God, not even one."
Left to ourselves, we will drop into Hell in full rebellion.
We were born in rebellion and we will die in rebellion. This was set by Adam. No free-will necessary.
In every instance, God pulls the human out of hiding.
You are making up "free-will" from the figment of your imagination.

All I know is that I believe in Christ because I choose to, and other people who don't believe in Him, do not believe because they choose not to. We can bicker about why it is that I choose to believe, and why others choose not to believe, but it is a choice.

 

[MennoSota]

Can you tell me what the election, choosing, and predestination is for? Is it ever for salvation? and if so, is it ever for a specific person?



Try Jeremiah 18:

The word which came to Jeremiah from the Lord, saying:“Arise and go down to the potter’s house, and there I will cause you to hear My words.”Then I went down to the potter’s house, and there he was, making something at the wheel.And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter; so he made it again into another vessel, as it seemed good to the potter to make.Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying:“O house of Israel, can I not do with you as this potter?” says the Lord. “Look, as the clay is in the potter’s hand, so are you in My hand, O house of Israel!The instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, to pull down, and to destroy it,if that nation against whom I have spoken turns from its evil, I will relent of the disaster that I thought to bring upon it.And the instant I speak concerning a nation and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it,if it does evil in My sight so that it does not obey My voice, then I will relent concerning the good with which I said I would benefit it.“Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Behold, I am fashioning a disaster and devising a plan against you. Return now every one from his evil way, and make your ways and your doings good.” ’ ” - Jeremiah 18:1-11 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah18:1-11&version=NKJV

Question for you: does God make idle threats?

Great connection of Jeremiah 18 with Romans 9. I suggest you put them together and see how Paul made the connection.
Election, choosing, predestination unto adoption.
God also ordains every action and activity in his creation. You cannot do one thing, good or bad, without God's ordained yes or no. There are many evils of man that God permits to happen by his ordination. He does not tell us why. He is not obligated to tell us why. Yet he give the "yes" anyway. For an example of yes, see the book of Job and satan's request to touch Job. For an example of no, see Balaam's attempt to curse the people of Israel.
God is in full, total and absolute control over His creation. Your will is never and will never be free of God's ordination over it.
Conclusion: Free-will is a myth created by humans to demand control over God. God has no part in such foolishness.

 

[MennoSota]

All I know is that I believe in Christ because I choose to, and other people who don't believe in Him, do not believe because they choose not to. We can bicker about why it is that I choose to believe, and why others choose not to believe, but it is a choice.

Nope. You have faith because God took your spiritually dead person and He made you alive in Christ Jesus.
You are saved by grace and you have been given the gift of faith so that you CANNOT boast about your choice of God. (Read Ephesians 2:1-10)
There is no bickering. You are...dead...wrong and the Bible tells you so.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Whatever
Nope
Himself
God tells us He chooses, predestines and elects. God shows us from Genesis to Revelation that He chooses, predestines and elects.
Ya gotta be a non-observant, philosophy minded, human who refuses God's Sovereign authority to miss God's ordained will upon all things.
If ever philosophy has been injected into Christianity, it is the philosophy of free-will. God never teaches it...anywhere...in the Bible. It is an entirely man-made concept. More so, it is a slap in the fave of God as rebels try to resist God's Sovereignty. I'm sure God laughs at the foolishness displayed by free-will thinking.

We are told to choose, believe, and do. Why are we instructed to do such if we are prediaposed to do a particular thing anyway?



Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

 

[popsthebuilder]

So what's your point?



Yep.



So, basically your claim is meaningless. Gotcha.



I AGREE!

However, let's consider for a moment the nation of Israel, also known as "God's Elect Lady."

How often did God choose them for a task, only for that task to never be done?



I agree.

But none of those times does it mean for salvation or eternal life. It ALWAYS means elect, chosen, predestined to do a task.



Proof by assertion fallacy?

The onus is on you to prove your claim, because you're the one making the claim.



Jeremiah, Jonah, and many others in both the Old and New Testaments would disagree with you.

The philosophy that has been injected into the Bible is that of greek paganism, that God cannot change (He does, for example: the incarnation of Christ), that He cannot be affected by emotions (many times He was moved by prayer), that He has all power (He has delegated some power and authority to earthly entities), that He knows everything (He uses phrases like "now I know" and even came to experience what it was like to be a human), that He is everywhere at once (He will cast those who reject Him into the lake of Fire, where they will be separated from Him (ergo, He won't be where they are) for the rest of eternity). Those "omni-"s and "im-"s of greek paganism are not taught in the Bible.

What onmis aren't verified with scripture?

Would you be willing to go over them in a peacable consice manner with me?

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[popsthebuilder]

Easy.
God teaches election, his choosing and predestination. Not once does God teach free-will. It ain't found in the Bible. It is found in philosophy.
Your turn.

I can show you a whole lot of times free will is in scripture. If you would like?

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

 

[MennoSota]

We are told to choose, believe, and do. Why are we instructed to do such if we are prediaposed to do a particular thing anyway?



Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

Verses?
When we choose, are we free of God's ordained will?
When we believe is it because God gives us the faith?
When we do is it outside of God's ordained will?
The Bible tells us we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Where in that equation do you find free-will?

 

[MennoSota]

Great. Since there is no verse anywhere in the Bible that uses the phrase "free-will", I look forward to you showing me one.
Meanwhile, how many verses can you find where the word chosen, elect or predestined is stated?

I can show you a whole lot of times free will is in scripture. If you would like?

Sent from my Nokia 6.1 using Tapatalk

Good luck pops. I think you should pop open that Quran of yours. Maybe Muhammad used the phrase. Or perhaps the Buddha or Confucius. Certainly, eventually, from one of your "sacred" writings you can find the term "free-will."

 

[popsthebuilder]

Verses?
When we choose, are we free of God's ordained will?
When we believe is it because God gives us the faith?
When we do is it outside of God's ordained will?
The Bible tells us we are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness. Where in that equation do you find free-will?

You are missing my point; we still have to choose.....it wouldn't be an option if wholly and utterly predestined.

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[popsthebuilder]

Great. Since there is no verse anywhere in the Bible that uses the phrase "free-will", I look forward to you showing me one.
Meanwhile, how many verses can you find where the word chosen, elect or predestined is stated?Good luck pops. I think you should pop open that Quran of yours. Maybe Muhammad used the phrase. Or perhaps the Buddha or Confucius. Certainly, eventually, from one of your "sacred" writings you can find the term "free-will."

2 Corinthians 8: 3. For I can testify that to the utmost of their power, and even beyond their power, they have of their own

free will

given help.

2 Corinthians 8: 17. for Titus welcomed our request, and, being thoroughly in earnest, comes to you of his own

free will.

Leviticus 22: 18. Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his

freewill

offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a burnt offering;

Leviticus 22: 21. And whosoever offereth a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD to accomplish his vow, or a

freewill

offering in beeves or sheep, it shall be perfect to be accepted; there shall be no blemish therein.

Leviticus 22: 23. Either a bullock or a lamb that hath any thing superfluous or lacking in his parts, that mayest thou offer for a

freewill

offering; but for a vow it shall not be accepted.

Leviticus 23: 38. Beside the sabbaths of the LORD, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your

freewill

offerings, which ye give unto the LORD.

Numbers 15: 3. And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a

freewill offering

, or in your solemn feasts, to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the herd, or of the flock:

Numbers 29: 39. These things ye shall do unto the LORD in your set feasts, beside your vows, and your

freewill

offerings, for your burnt offerings, and for your meat offerings, and for your drink offerings, and for your peace offerings.

Deuteronomy 12: 6. And thither ye shall bring your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, and your tithes, and heave offerings of your hand, and your vows, and your freewill offerings, and the firstlings of your herds and of your flocks:

(There are approximately 10 more verses referring to free will. I hope I have struck at your pride; it is the only way you will ever accept change.

By the way; I can show such truth in any of the sacred texts....name one.....

peace)

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[Idolater]

Nope. You have faith because God took your spiritually dead person and He made you alive in Christ Jesus.
You are saved by grace and you have been given the gift of faith so that you CANNOT boast about your choice of God. (Read Ephesians 2:1-10)
There is no bickering. You are...dead...wrong and the Bible tells you so.

I'm not boasting.