Free will is simply....

[MennoSota]

Are you blind or trying to say I have added to scripture?

You seem more proud than I gave you credit for.

I'm sorry the verses I quoted didn't have the a dash mark in the word freewill...

So since everything is preordained and you are of the elect then why can't you even see the truth about the subject all through scripture? Perhaps you are predestined to be blind and proud the rest of your mortal life.....but that doesn't fit the description of a follower of GOD. If you follow the Word due to predestination then are you even following in actuality at all?

So have you determined what GOD destined you to be and do here in this life?

Let me ask you what made truster put me on ignore a couple years ago;

Do you believe it is outside the capacity of GOD to ordain our free will?

How do you know it isn't the sovergn will of GOD that HIS creation have the freedom of choice when all scripture tells us to choose?

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You have added the man-made concept of free-will with your commentary.
Making choices does not equal freedom of the will. It means you make a choice and God either says "yes" or "no" regarding your choice. It happens continually. It doesn't mean you are free from God's ordained will or that your will can somehow thwart God's will. What you are describing is not free-will at all. It's choice under the authorization of God's will.
As for the concept that a human chooses God as Savior, the Bible emphatically says NO. Spiritually dead people cannot choose. No one seeks after God, not even one.
God gives spiritual life. God saves. God adopts. God gives faith. God sanctifies.
Don't ever imagine that you played a role in your salvation. You didn't. God did it all. God decided to provide an unmerited favor. (That is...if God has even quickened your spirit, pops. Your love of Islam speaks against you.)

 

[MennoSota]

Unsurprising.
Because I do, utterly.
Yes.
Because there is no contradiction.
I've read the Bible through twice. Well, I've read the Protestant Bible through twice (only 66 books instead of the Christian Bible's 73 books).

My report is the one thing that separates most Protestants from ancient Christianity, and it is the typically Protestant habit of putting zero weighting on the office of 'Bishop.' It's not as if the word isn't in the Bible, it's just that Protestant theology typically doesn't interpret the office of Bishop in any way that correlates to what the first Church practiced and believed.

Pastors aren't those who get their MDiv. Pastors are ordained, through the imposition of hands, which is the sacrament of Holy Orders. The Bishops have two or three jobs, depending upon how you prefer to describe it. In the two-job model, Bishops are to teach, and to pray. This is Pope Francis's view. Another view is that Bishops are to teach, sanctify, and govern. iow, Pope Francis condensed the three-job model into 'teach and pray.'

And the Bishops teach how God's sovereignty and man's free will integrate together seamlessly, as one fabric, in the Church's authorized teaching on Divine Providence.

Text 307 from the Catechism of the Catholic Church says:
"Though often unconscious collaborators* with God's will, [human beings] can also enter deliberately* into the divine plan by their actions, their prayers and their sufferings."

* 'unconscious collaborators' and entering 'deliberately into the divine plan' are the only two options. The Church teaches explicitly what the divine plan is for us Christians, and when we are not entering deliberately into His plan, we are still 'unconscious collaborators' in it. This covers all the bases, and shows precisely how our freedom interacts with God's exhaustive, definite power over all His creation, including the truly free will choices of man.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c1p4.htm#307

You place your faith in tradition over God's word. Got it.
That's what the Pharisees and Sadducees did as well. Most died in their trespasses and sins and never knew the quickening of God's Spirit by His grace.
When you are able to recognize God's Sovereign choice, election and predestination over humanity, let me know. May God open your eyes.

 

[Idolater]

You place your faith in tradition over God's word.

Nope. Tradition is supported by God's Word.

Got it.

'Don't think so.

That's what the Pharisees and Sadducees did as well.

Oh.

Most died in their trespasses and sins and never knew the quickening of God's Spirit by His grace.

Then every one of them to a man, freely chose to NOT believe in Christ.

When you are able to recognize God's Sovereign choice, election and predestination over humanity, let me know.

I already have.

May God open your eyes.

Peace be with you.

 

[MennoSota]

Nope. Tradition is supported by God's Word.
'Don't think so.
Oh.
Then every one of them to a man, freely chose to NOT believe in Christ.
I already have.
Peace be with you.

Everyone is born in their trespasses and sins. No need to choose. Adam already corrupted us. (Romans 5)

 

[Idolater]

Everyone is born in their trespasses and sins.

No argument.

No need to choose.

'Beg to differ. We need to choose to believe in Christ; in His Resurrection.

Adam already corrupted us. (Romans 5)

Again no argument.

 

[MennoSota]

Nope. Tradition is supported by God's Word.
'Don't think so.
Oh.
Then every one of them to a man, freely chose to NOT believe in Christ.
I already have.
Peace be with you.

Tradition is often not supported by God's word. Tradition often makes up its own commentary and then desperately plucks a sentence out of context in an attempt to prove it's legitimacy. Rome has been abusing God's word for over 1700 years as it pulls false teachings out of its hat.
Be like the Bereans and make all traditions be under God's word. Then toss out any and all traditions that are contrary to God's word.
For example: Toss out infant baptism as a means of saving grace. It's not taught in scripture. Toss out the perpetual virginity of Mary. It's not taught in scripture. Toss out indulgences. It's not taught in scripture. Etc.
Do your due diligence and rebuke the false teaching of Rome. It will be good for you.

 

[MennoSota]

No argument.
'Beg to differ. We need to choose to believe in Christ; in His Resurrection.
Again no argument.

Spiritually dead people can't choose. Read Romans 3 and Ephesians 2. Your begging is a lost cause.

 

[Idolater]

Tradition is often not supported by God's word. Tradition often makes up its own commentary and then desperately plucks a sentence out of context in an attempt to prove it's legitimacy. Rome has been abusing God's word for over 1700 years as it pulls false teachings out of its hat.

That is definitely the Protestant view of things.

Be like the Bereans and make all traditions be under God's word. Then toss out any and all traditions that are contrary to God's word.
For example: Toss out infant baptism as a means of saving grace. It's not taught in scripture. Toss out the perpetual virginity of Mary. It's not taught in scripture. Toss out indulgences. It's not taught in scripture. Etc.

Toss out pornography and abortion being sins. It's not taught in Scripture.

Do your due diligence and rebuke the false teaching of Rome. It will be good for you.

When the Church teaches on politics, I question whether that's within her purview. I accept her authority in matters of faith and morals, but I wonder about the link between morals and politics that her Bishops appear to make.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That is definitely the Protestant view of things.
Toss out pornography and abortion being sins. It's not taught in Scripture.

Pornography is sexual immorality. The Bible teaches that it's one man and one woman in marriage, and that sex should only occur within marriage. Pornography violates that teaching.

Abortion is condemned because it's murder of an innocent baby, in what used to be the safest place in the universe, the mother's womb. The Bible called the baby in the womb a child, and it's always wrong to kill children, because man is made in Gods' image.

When the Church teaches on politics, I question whether that's within her purview. I accept her authority in matters of faith and morals, but I wonder about the link between morals and politics that her Bishops appear to make.

 

[Idolater]

Spiritually dead people can't choose.

People obviously choose whether or not to believe that Christ's Resurrection is fictional or nonfiction. You would argue that if they do choose to believe in Christ, that they were already quickened/regenerated by the Spirit, which doesn't negate anything I've put forth, as to whether or not the Gospel should be preached, and whether people should be encouraged to believe it.

Read Romans 3 and Ephesians 2.

I have many times, and I love both those chapters, along with the whole rest of Scripture.

Your begging is a lost cause.

It seems to be working out OK.

 

[Idolater]

Pornography is sexual immorality. The Bible teaches that it's one man and one woman in marriage, and that sex should only occur within marriage. Pornography violates that teaching.

What about pornography involving only a married couple. That's still sin. The Church teaches explicitly against 'pornography.' Your method allows for things to fall through the cracks.

Abortion is condemned because it's murder of an innocent baby, in what used to be the safest place in the universe, the mother's womb. The Bible called the baby in the womb a child, and it's always wrong to kill children, because man is made in Gods' image.

I am in full agreement with you that abortion is gravely immoral. My only point is that there are things that are not explicit in any Christian scriptures, that are nonetheless gravely immoral, and the Church has with authority explicitly taught against things like pornography and abortion for many centuries.

 

[JudgeRightly]

What about pornography involving only a married couple.

Except the one watching is involved.

That's still sin.

DUH!

The Church teaches explicitly against 'pornography.' Your method allows for things to fall through the cracks.

Marriage is between one man and one woman in marriage. It's supposed to be private. That's as sealed as it gets.

Pornography breaks that seal.

I am in full agreement with you that abortion is gravely immoral. My only point is that there are things that are not explicit in any Christian scriptures, that are nonetheless gravely immoral, and the Church has with authority explicitly taught against things like pornography and abortion for many centuries.

It's very explicit.

Man is made in God's image.
Do not murder.
If the child in the womb is injured or killed during the commission of a crime (and of course, same for the mother as well), eye for eye, hand for hand, foot for foot, and life for life punishments apply. If no lasting harm comes to the child or the mother, then restitution for medical costs incurred (and for wages lost as well if the mother was harmed but was able to heal).
Abortion is murder because it's a baby, and it's always wrong to kill a baby.

 

[Idolater]

Marriage is between one man and one woman in marriage. It's supposed to be private.

Where's that explicit in Scripture?

It's very explicit.

Man is made in God's image.
Do not murder.
If the child in the womb is injured or killed during the commission of a crime (and of course, same for the mother as well), eye for eye, hand for hand, foot for foot, and life for life punishments apply. If no lasting harm comes to the child or the mother, then restitution for medical costs incurred (and for wages lost as well if the mother was harmed but was able to heal).
Abortion is murder because it's a baby, and it's always wrong to kill a baby.

That's not explicit. That's clear as mud.

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church just teaches explicitly that abortion is grave sin.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Where's that explicit in Scripture?

That's implicit, not explicit:

Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and they shall become one flesh. - Genesis 2:24 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis2:24&version=NKJV

Also, see all the sexual immorality laws.

That's not explicit. That's clear as mud.

http://americanrtl.org/what-does-the-bible-say-about-abortion

That provides all the Bible verses.

Meanwhile, the Catholic Church just teaches explicitly that abortion is grave sin.

So the defence for your faith is church tradition and not scripture?

But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear; - 1 Peter 3:15 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1Peter3:15&version=NKJV

 

[Idolater]

So the defence for your faith is church tradition and not scripture?

The defense of my faith is Christ's Resurrection.

 

[MennoSota]

Pornography is sexual immorality. The Bible teaches that it's one man and one woman in marriage, and that sex should only occur within marriage. Pornography violates that teaching.

Abortion is condemned because it's murder of an innocent baby, in what used to be the safest place in the universe, the mother's womb. The Bible called the baby in the womb a child, and it's always wrong to kill children, because man is made in Gods' image.

To bring this back to free-will...we read in Romans 1 that God gives the ordained "yes" to humanity acting out its corrupt perversions.

 

[MennoSota]

The defense of my faith is Christ's Resurrection.

Then your defense is weak. Jesus resurrection happened regardless of your mental acceptance or rejection. Merely acknowledging it means nothing. That's not faith. Any cultist can acknowledge Jesus rose from the dead. Lazarus rose from the dead as well. There are many accounts of people resurrecting from death.
Question: Has God made YOU alive in Christ Jesus? How would YOU know that?

 

[Idolater]

Then your defense is weak.

:rotfl:

Jesus resurrection happened regardless of your mental acceptance or rejection.

Correct.

Merely acknowledging it means nothing.

1st Corinthians 15:14 KJV Romans 10:9 KJV

That's not faith.

Yes it is, and beyond it being faith, it is particularly the one Christian faith, Ephesians 4:5 KJV.

Any cultist can acknowledge Jesus rose from the dead.

Then that 'cultist' is an individual member of the Body of Christ; a Christian---no matter how imperfectly united to Christ's Church, which is His Body, that they are.

Lazarus rose from the dead as well.

He was not the Firstborn from the dead however.

There are many accounts of people resurrecting from death.
Question: Has God made YOU alive in Christ Jesus? How would YOU know that?

Because I believe in Christ's Resurrection.

 

[JudgeRightly]

To bring this back to free-will...we read in Romans 1 that God gives the ordained "yes" to humanity acting out its corrupt perversions.

So to bring it back, you still need to answer this rather excellent question:

How do you know it isn't the sovereign will of God that man has the freedom of choice when all scripture tells him to choose?

Also...

If God is constantly saying "yes" and "no" to every action, then why does everyone live like an open theist?

Is God the author of confusion? If not, then why is there so much confusion in the world?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Then your defense is weak. Jesus resurrection happened regardless of your mental acceptance or rejection. Merely acknowledging it means nothing. That's not faith. Any cultist can acknowledge Jesus rose from the dead.

Just out of curiosity, could you name one that claims He rose from being dead, and not just waking up from unconsciousness?

Lazarus rose from the dead as well. There are many accounts of people resurrecting from death.
Question: Has God made YOU alive in Christ Jesus? How would YOU know that?