For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained

[heir]

MidActs'ers want to recognize the God-given distinctions between Israel and the Body and where how those divisions play out in the writings of the Bible.

As one should. God went to great lengths to show those distinctions. As it is today in the church, few realize there were even two groups, that Israel was cut off temporarily and Gentiles grafted in. I've even heard that we are Israel. It's really sad when the waters are muddied, hence all the confusion we see. Failure to recognize these truths are the real source of division.

I agree with Butterfly. Thanks for having this thread. What a refreshing relief to be able to see civil dialogue without disruption (for the most part). Taking a deeper look and the eyes of others opened make it all worth while!

Looking forward to Acts 15.
<><JU

 

[john w]

As one should. God went to great lengths to show those distinctions. As it is today in the church, few realize there were even two groups, that Israel was cut off temporarily and Gentiles grafted in. I've even heard that we are Israel. It's really sad when the waters are muddied, hence all the confusion we see. Failure to recognize these truths are the real source of division.

I agree with Butterfly. Thanks for having this thread. What a refreshing relief to be able to see civil dialogue without disruption (for the most part). Taking a deeper look and the eyes of others opened make it all worth while!

Looking forward to Acts 15.
<><JU

_
"God went to great lengths to show those distinctions...It's really sad when the waters are muddied, hence all the confusion we see. Failure to recognize these truths are the real source of division."-judge master

And that is the crux of the issue-it is not that complicated(STP), i.e.,
recognizing the divisions the LORD God put in His word of truth. If you do not, you will be ashamed(2 Timothy2:15) at the "Rewards Ceremony" of those in Christ, and you may have to explain how you could justify why you did not believe in "Saint Nick", if all scripture is for our obedience, and cite passages as "proof texts"=spin passages, such as :



Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.

 

[Butterfly]

STP, I wanted to publicly thank you for giving me the link to Trusting the Lord. Just finished listen to part 1 of "Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth" by Steve Atwood. It's an absolute life changer. I'm glad that I stayed open and did not dismiss what you and other have been saying. Before condemnation, others need to inquire as Scripture says the Bereans did. However, I guess that that is up to them. All the Bible is for us but not to us. I got it! Bless you brother. Raven

:cheers:

Amen! Praise be to God for your knew found understanding! It's occurrences like this that make all this time and effort worth it. :up:

I am starting to get choked-up.

 

[Bright Raven]

I used to look at MAD from the opposite side of the fence, criticizing that which I did not understand. If folks would only be open and attempt to see the differences presented in God's word, the eyes of there understanding would be opened. It's there and available. I'm thankful that I took the time to investigate it for myself. I would suggest for others that are critical to do the same.

 

[john w]

I used to look at MAD from the opposite side of the fence, criticizing that which I did not understand. If folks would only be open and attempt to see the differences presented in God's word, the eyes of there understanding would be opened. It's there and available. I'm thankful that I took the time to investigate it for myself. I would suggest for others that are critical to do the same.

_
Your mission(now), Raven of Bright, should you decide to accept it, is "to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery"(Eph. 3:9). Should any of your RDF("Right Division Force") members be (spiritually) caught or killed(and they will), members of the body of Christ will not disavow any of your actions, but will back you up. "Good luck", Bright. Here is your charge, and it will not self destruct:

"And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." 2 Tim. 2:2

 

[Bright Raven]

_
Your mission(now), Raven of Bright, should you decide to accept it, is "to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery"(Eph. 3:9). Should any of your RDF("Right Division Force") members be (spiritually) caught or killed(and they will), members of the body of Christ will not disavow any of your actions, but will back you up. "Good luck", Bright. Here is your charge, and it will not self destruct:

"And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also." 2 Tim. 2:2

Right On W of John.

 

[Pam Baldwin]

:cheers:

Amen! Praise be to God for your knew found understanding! It's occurrences like this that make all this time and effort worth it. :up:

I am starting to get choked-up.

Yes, Raven, :cheers:
It's good to "find" fellow saints!

Pam

 

[Bright Raven]

Yes, Raven, :cheers:
It's good to "find" fellow saints!

Pam

Nice to make your acquaintance.

 

[Lighthouse]

It isn't.

I agree with you.

However, cm claims that non-MAD's use a strawman to claim that MAD's don't "apply" what Jesus said or taught to this dispensation.

There are many non-MAD's who call MAD's "Paul people", and say that MAD's dismiss everything Jesus taught.

I can see where non-MAD's get it from, because most MAD's claim that everything Jesus said or taught was either for those under the law, or for Kingdom believers, and not Body believers. Most MAD's believe that Jesus did not teach or preach "Body" doctrine during His incarnation.

I was trying to address this by presenting two verses that address what Paul taught, and what Jesus taught at the same time. They are as follows:

(Rom 16:25) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began

(Acts 20:35) "I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive."

In the first verse Paul says "my gospel AND the preaching of Jesus Christ.

In the second verse Paul quotes Jesus,

My question to MAD's who beleive Jesus did not preach or teach "Body" doctrine (during His incarnation), is how do these verses fit into that beleif system?

There are things Jesus preached during His incarnation that apply to us. However, as Pam pointed out, He was not preaching to the Body of Christ.

Hi Pam:

I agree with you, thus the can of worms.

Since MAD believes Jesus did not teach Body doctrine, but lots of the things Jesus did teach are for us, then how do we determine just what things are for us, and what things are not for us that Jesus taught?

For example Jesus says to take communion and to do it in remembrance of Him. MAD believes that this command from Jesus is not for them, but for Kingdom believers only.

IOW, how do you determine what teachings of Jesus are transdispensational, and what teachings are NOT for Body believers?

There seems to be a lot of anger towards MAD’s on TOL lately, and in my opinion the MAD belief that Jesus taught no Body doctrine has a lot to do with it.

How do you determine? Well, there are a lot of things that Paul reiterated. Those should be pretty clear. There are also things that Paul wrote were repealed.

And then there is the fact that, as Pam pointed out, apply to us differently. Take, for instance, Jesus and the rich young ruler. He told him to follow the ten commandments. Paul reiterated some of those. The difference here is that the rich young ruler could lose his relationship with God if he broke any of those commandments. We cannot.

 

[chickenman]

Hi, everyone.

I think I'm back. Took a few days off.

Thanks for all the cool comments and questions. I appreciate my fellow MidActs'ers making posts in here and addressing others' questions. Because I've not done much in here in a few pages, I'll not go back and address any questions unless someone would specifically like me to take a stab at anything.

Bright Raven,
It's really great to see your interest and openness. My intentions for this thread were not necessarily to convince anyone, but rather to educate those that sincerely wanted to understand this positon. Regardless of your conclusion, it's great to see that you're honestly evaluating the MidActs position. But obviously I'm thrilled that you also see merit in it. :up:

I'll post my thoughts on Acts 15 shortly.

Thanks, everyone.

Randy

 

[chickenman]

Acts 14 concluded with the report that God had opened the door of faith to the Gentiles (Acts 14:27). When did this happen? Was Paul's report referring to Pentecost? No way. For we do not see an uncircumcised Gentile converted until Acts 10, surprising Peter and the others with him that were of the circumcision. And then in Antioch (chapter 11) Barnabas "had seen the grace of God" as Gentiles there were being converted.

Since Paul reports that a door of faith had been opened to the Gentiles, then that means that PRIOR TO that, a door of faith had NOT been opened to the Gentiles. Since the Body of Christ consists of neither Jew nor Greek (meaning there's no distinction between them), and since God absolutely DID distinguish between them prior to opening a door of faith to the Gentiles with Cornelius and the Antioch Gentiles, then that demonstrates that the spiritual Body - the one new man - had not yet been "birthed", called out, however you want to put it.

Acts 15 shows a dispute between believers. Believers dispute today all the time. It's rampant on TOL. But would believers who are said to be on the same page doctrinally, who are leaders chosen by Jesus Himself, have a doctrinal dispute over something as fundamental as the requirement for salvation?

Acts 15 shows a dispute initially between Paul and some men who came to Antioch from Judea. They were undermining Paul's ministry to the Gentiles by saying that they had to be circumcised according to the custom of Moses to be saved (Acts 15:1). These men came from Judea, but they were not commanded by James to do what they were doing (Acts 15:24). But does that mean they were doing something CONTRARY to the doctrine of the Jerusalem apostles and elders?

No.

The Jerusalem council takes place 17 years after Saul's conversion (Gal. 1 & 2) and 18 years (I believe) after sometime around the crucifixion or Pentecost. To resolve the dispute between Paul and the men from Judea, they want Paul to go to Jerusalem for the apostles and elders to settle the matter (Acts 15:2). If Peter and the Jerusalem apostles and elders had been preaching salvation by grace through faith and no works - for Jew and Gentile alike - and they had been doing this for 17 or 18 years so far, why in the world would someone want to go to them to prove their case that one had to be circumcised to be saved?

At my former church, we had an elder board. The elders were all 100% on the same page about salvation. We are saved by grace through faith and not of works AT ALL. Imagine this. During an elder meeting, a group of men comes in and says: "This guy is telling everyone you don't have to be circumcised to be saved!!!" What do you think the elders would do? Would they come together to consider the matter. Would there be much disputing about it? No, and no. They would probably say: "Great job! Keep it up!"

Yet in Jerusalem, "the apostles and elders came together to consider this matter" (Acts 15:6). To consider what? The notion that it is necessary for the Gentiles to be circumcised and to keep the law of Moses (Acts 15:5). Not only do they come together to consider the matter, but there is much dispute (Acts 15:7).

If Paul and the Jerusalem apostles are already on the same page about salvation by grace through faith alone, then what is there to consider? What could be disputed?

The answer is obvious. They were not on the same page. Yet they were both right. God had began offering salvation directly to the Gentiles and doing so by grace through faith only. Yet there were many circumcision believers (including Peter, James, John) who had believed according to the kingdom requirements and who were continuing in that calling. They were right in doing so and were required to do so.

God, in His infinite wisdom, knew the reaction the Israelites would have to uncircumcised Gentiles being saved prior to the arrival of the kingdom. So He sent the highest ranking apostle (at the time) to an uncircumcised Gentile (Cornelius) to witness God pouring out the Spirit on him, thus proving that He was turning to uncircumcised Gentiles. Because of this, Peter was able to stand up in Acts 15:7 and end the dispute. He personally bore witness to what God had done. As a result of his testimony, the other circumcision believers were able to accept it (as others did in Acts 11:18).

After Peter's witness, James gives his judgment. And if you pay attention to the text, you'll see that not once does James make any statement about the requirements for the Jews. His statement pertains ONLY to the Gentiles, as he says:

"Therefore I judge that we should not trouble those from among the Gentiles who are turning to God..." Acts 15:19
​

The requirement for the circumcision believers was STILL to keep the law and faithfully endure untl they would receive the promises to Israel. But James acknowledged that that should not be imposed upon the Gentiles.

Included in James' judgment was the request for a letter to be commissioned that would be passed around to the Gentiles asking that they abstain from certain things. The motive: to not cause a stumbling block to the Jews in those Gentile regions (Acts 15:21). Why does James not commission a letter to be written to them to teach them salvation by grace through faith and not of works? That is not his desire. His concern is that they faithfully abide by the law as they await their long awaited hope. So he doesn't want there to be anything put in their way that might hinder them from doing that.

The Acts 15 council demonstrates the difference between the doctrine of the circumcision believers and the doctrine administered by Paul under the gospel of the uncircumcision. The Acts 15 council demonstrates that James and the Jerusalem apostles, elders, and believers operated under a gospel that was different than that which Paul taught.

Of note in the chapter is Peter's comment on the manner of salvation of the Jews. He said:

"But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they (the uncircumcised Gentiles)." Acts 15:11
​

According to prophecy, Israel would receive their eternal forgiveness of sins when they would receive their new covenant in the kingdom. And they would, at that time, receive their eternal righteousness. So for the Israelite, salvation would be future...in the promised kingdom on earth. Peter is consistent with this when he says "we shall be saved". And in his first epistle, he leaves no doubt.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away reserved in heaven for you who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. I Peter 1:3-5

Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you... I Peter 1:10

Therefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and rest your hope fully upon the grace that is to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ... I Peter 1:13

​

Peter believed he would receive salvation by grace in the future, when the Lord returned.

Paul taught:

By grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God... Eph. 2:8
​

This is not pitting Paul against Peter. It's merely acknowledging that Israel awaited a future salvation according to grace, while those saved into the Body of Christ were immediately saved according to grace.



Acts 15 shows us the following, quite clearly in my opinion:

• Paul taught something very different than did the Jerusalem apostles and elders
• God did NOT give grace to uncircumcised Gentiles (for salvation) at Pentecost or even for a short while after that. Their door of faith would come later.
• Peter believed his (and the circumcision believers') salvation to be future, not present.
• James' judgment and Paul's acceptance of that (the letter for Gentiles to abstain...) totally clears up the confusion some have with Paul seeming to ask others to keep the law. Even without the letter, Rom. 14, I Cor. 8 through 10, etc. all show that Paul was willing to do whatever it took (subject act legalistic, not act legalistic, etc) in order to win his countrymen.

My thoughts on Acts 15.

Randy

 

[Pam Baldwin]

Hi there Randy:

Great post, nice explanation. I am understanding better what we agree on and disagree on ....however, I know that we agree on the basics of the Body Dispensation.

So, I'd like to ask a question (or two) on the post.....and believe me, I am sincere!

Are you saying that the dispute and the reason that Paul went to the apostles in Jerusalem was to explain that in the Body, the elect are saved by grace alone( and that they do not get circumcised nor follow the LAw as part of their salvation)?

I ask because I've seen it that the reason Paul went to talk with them all was to explain the Body dispensation....in that there is no Jew, nor Greek not male, female etc. That we are all One in Christ- His Body and He is our Head. Of course, us not being under the Mosaic LAw is part of it. But the huge "pill to swallow" for the jew was that Gentiles were equal.

Also, do you think that Cornelius was a Body saint, or a righteous Gentile...or what?

Take your time answering.....I am going away for the weekend with the "girls".each:each::smokie:each:each:
each::cheers:each:each:each:each: Our Annual Girls' Weekend.....always a geat time!

Pam

 

[amosman]

Question to any MAD believer:

"but now commandeth all men every where to repent" What did these people have to repent for?

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Question to any MAD believer:

"but now commandeth all men every where to repent" What did these people have to repent for?

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Is this sincere, amosman? You've called MAD liars in other threads you've started.

1 Thess 1
9: For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

How did they turn from idols to God?

Acts 17
1: Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3: Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4: And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

These Jews and Greeks in the synagogue were still involved with idolatry, but they received Paul's message that Jesus was the Christ, turning from a false God to the one true God.

 

[john w]

Question to any MAD believer:

"but now commandeth all men every where to repent" What did these people have to repent for?

Act 17:22 Then Paul stood in the midst of Mars' hill, and said, Ye men of Athens, I perceive that in all things ye are too superstitious.
Act 17:23 For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you.
Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
Act 17:25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
Act 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
Act 17:27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
Act 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

__

Of whom and to whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what preceded, and what follows(Miles Coverdale paraphrase).

The audience in Athens?
In the synagogue at Athens, Paul "reasoned" that this Jesus was the Messiah, the Christ, proving it from the scriptures. However, in the market place, he used other arguments to persuade the Grecian "opponents" (some other appear later @ Mars Hill).

"Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection." Acts 17:18

Paul's task on Mars Hill was to preach Jesus Christ, but his listeners did not even know there was a one true God. And hence,

"For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." Acts 17:23

Biblically, "ignorant" does not mean "stupid"-it merely means "lack of knowledge." In this context, they were ignorant of the true knowledge of God.

There were approximately 3,000 public altars in Athens. And hence:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;" Acts 17:24(see Acts 7:48)


"Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;" Acts 17:25


Paganism is characterized by a physical activity, or something done with men's hands.

The Epicureans, "philosophers", highly "cultivated", artistic people, materialists.....but they did not know God(neither did the Stoicks).Paul was introducing them to the one true God, the One who created them and everything else. Thus, just as the Lord Jesus Christ spoke quite differently to the young woman with a bucket of water in John 4, than He did to "Professor Nic" just one chapter earlier in John 3, Paul needed, and understood, that he had to "come down the ladder", "begin with the basics", in the ladder of truth-baby steps, if you will. He thus set forth, verses 23-31, God's unity, His glory as creator( per Gen. 1:1,Hebrews 11:6...), and thus His inherent right to judge His creatures, His manifestation/revelation of who He was in Christ, " he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained", the resurrection of His Christ, "in that he hath raised him from the dead", and the delegation of future judgment to that same man, the Lord Jesus Christ. In effect, He did preach "Jesus", and the resurrection of the dead(verse 18) to them, as being God, who they knew not. He may have developed his theme, as initially outlined in Chapter 13, including preaching mankind's doom due to sin, and the solution to this dilemma, the Jesus of whom they had heard(verse 18), but first they had to know "the basics":The day of Repentance("change your mind"-verses 27-30)), the day of Judgment(God Exists-verses 27-30), the day of ignorance(verse 30). And then leaves, after they divided themselves into 3 groups:

-mockers, scoffers v. 32
-"put it off 'til later" types=procrastinators-"We will hear thee again of this matter" v. 32
-believers-verse 34

The principle confirmed:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6

First step-persuade the person that God exists-baby step, "plant the seed.". If he/she rejects that, you are "rearranging the deck chairs on the SS Titanic." It would be akin to trying to persuade someone that the grass is green, when they do not believe grass exists.For the first time in their lives the Athenians were introduced to a God who is a living person; One with Whom man could communicate, One Who was accessible. And they needed to "change their mind" about this issue.

 

[amosman]

Is this sincere, amosman? You've called MAD liars in other threads you've started.

1 Thess 1
9: For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

How did they turn from idols to God?

Acts 17
1: Now when they had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where was a synagogue of the Jews:
2: And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,
3: Opening and alleging, that Christ must needs have suffered, and risen again from the dead; and that this Jesus, whom I preach unto you, is Christ.
4: And some of them believed, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

These Jews and Greeks in the synagogue were still involved with idolatry, but they received Paul's message that Jesus was the Christ, turning from a false God to the one true God.

I had simply pointed out that some people continue to spread the lies that were started during Paul's ministry.

But yes this was a sincere question. I thought MAD taught there was no need to repent? Idolatry is against Torah. That's why they needed to repent of idolatry.

 

[amosman]

__

Of whom and to whom, with what words, at what time, where, to what intent, with what circumstances, considering what preceded, and what follows(Miles Coverdale paraphrase).

The audience in Athens?
In the synagogue at Athens, Paul "reasoned" that this Jesus was the Messiah, the Christ, proving it from the scriptures. However, in the market place, he used other arguments to persuade the Grecian "opponents" (some other appear later @ Mars Hill).

"Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection." Acts 17:18

Paul's task on Mars Hill was to preach Jesus Christ, but his listeners did not even know there was a one true God. And hence,

"For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, TO THE UNKNOWN GOD. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you." Acts 17:23

Biblically, "ignorant" does not mean "stupid"-it merely means "lack of knowledge." In this context, they were ignorant of the true knowledge of God.

There were approximately 3,000 public altars in Athens. And hence:

"God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;" Acts 17:24(see Acts 7:48)


"Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;" Acts 17:25


Paganism is characterized by a physical activity, or something done with men's hands.

The Epicureans, "philosophers", highly "cultivated", artistic people, materialists.....but they did not know God(neither did the Stoicks).Paul was introducing them to the one true God, the One who created them and everything else. Thus, just as the Lord Jesus Christ spoke quite differently to the young woman with a bucket of water in John 4, than He did to "Professor Nic" just one chapter earlier in John 3, Paul needed, and understood, that he had to "come down the ladder", "begin with the basics", in the ladder of truth-baby steps, if you will. He thus set forth, verses 23-31, God's unity, His glory as creator( per Gen. 1:1,Hebrews 11:6...), and thus His inherent right to judge His creatures, His manifestation/revelation of who He was in Christ, " he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained", the resurrection of His Christ, "in that he hath raised him from the dead", and the delegation of future judgment to that same man, the Lord Jesus Christ. In effect, He did preach "Jesus", and the resurrection of the dead(verse 18) to them, as being God, who they knew not. He may have developed his theme, as initially outlined in Chapter 13, including preaching mankind's doom due to sin, and the solution to this dilemma, the Jesus of whom they had heard(verse 18), but first they had to know "the basics":The day of Repentance("change your mind"-verses 27-30)), the day of Judgment(God Exists-verses 27-30), the day of ignorance(verse 30). And then leaves, after they divided themselves into 3 groups:

-mockers, scoffers v. 32
-"put it off 'til later" types=procrastinators-"We will hear thee again of this matter" v. 32
-believers-verse 34

The principle confirmed:

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Hebrews 11:6

First step-persuade the person that God exists-baby step, "plant the seed.". If he/she rejects that, you are "rearranging the deck chairs on the SS Titanic." It would be akin to trying to persuade someone that the grass is green, when they do not believe grass exists.For the first time in their lives the Athenians were introduced to a God who is a living person; One with Whom man could communicate, One Who was accessible. And they needed to "change their mind" about this issue.

Paul did make good use of the unknown god that goes without question. But what I find puzzling is that Paul in his statement about repentance includes all men every where. And if I'm not mistaken the MAD people say repentance is not need.

 

[tetelestai]

Paul did make good use of the unknown god that goes without question. But what I find puzzling is that Paul in his statement about repentance includes all men every where. And if I'm not mistaken the MAD people say repentance is not need.

Repent (metanoeo) means a change of mind.

If someone that Paul was talking to didn’t believe Jesus was the Son of God, and then did believe after hearing Paul, then that person “repented”

Repent does not mean to change one’s conduct before or after salvation, or to feel guilty or sorry.

So everyone who believes in Jesus as his or her Savior repents.

 

[amosman]

Repent (metanoeo) means a change of mind.

If someone that Paul was talking to didn’t believe Jesus was the Son of God, and then did believe after hearing Paul, then that person “repented”

Repent does not mean to change one’s conduct before or after salvation, or to feel guilty or sorry.

So everyone who believes in Jesus as his or her Savior repents.

I'm I mistaken when I say the Mad camp does not teach the need for repentance? Because it sure seemed that is what they were doing.

 

[tetelestai]

I'm I mistaken when I say the Mad camp does not teach the need for repentance? Because it sure seemed that is what they were doing.

I'm not a MAD, but I think they teach (as do some non-MAD's) that you do not have to "repent" about sins in order to be saved.

Its faith and faith alone for salvation.

A non-believer does not believe in Jesus, therefore that non-believer has to change his thinking (repent), and believe in Jesus for salvation.

Sins (past, present, and future) have nothing to do with it.