Pam Baldwin
New member
I was going to reply, but this is a thread for sincere inquisitors on MAD....so I will refrain :shut:
For Sincere Inquisitors ONLY: MAD Explained
- Thread starter chickenman
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I was going to reply, but this is a thread for sincere inquisitors on MAD....so I will refrain :shut:
Question
Question
I'm not sure I know what you are getting at here John W. But "these people have turned the world upside down" is profoundly true. Is there more that I am missing? I can be quite dense at times. peace, bybee:dunce:
Question
I'm not sure I know what you are getting at here John W. But "these people have turned the world upside down" is profoundly true. Is there more that I am missing? I can be quite dense at times. peace, bybee:dunce:
Given that the "Christmas" season is fast approaching(!) , perhaps the following would be instructive regarding mankind's never ending pursuit of "peace", unity..... Notice Isaiah 9:7(and Luke 1:31-33):
" For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." Is 9:6,7
The Lord Jesus Christ comes back to order/establish it. But notice that worldwide peace, "...as the days of heaven upon the earth...."(Deut. 11:21), is established by judgment, not compromise. That is, the entire world will know the truth after they are judged by the standard of truth, the LORD God himself, through the Holy Bible(the Holy Bible is the direct revelation of God as it's source. As such, it has divine authority, for what the Bible says, GOD SAYS). Only after truth is instituted will worldwide "peace" be established and realized.
But the LORD God never sacrifices truth for peace, sound doctrine for compromise.
Judgment first, then peace/unity.
How is what I said wrong?
It isn't.
I agree with you.
However, cm claims that non-MAD's use a strawman to claim that MAD's don't "apply" what Jesus said or taught to this dispensation.
There are many non-MAD's who call MAD's "Paul people", and say that MAD's dismiss everything Jesus taught.
I can see where non-MAD's get it from, because most MAD's claim that everything Jesus said or taught was either for those under the law, or for Kingdom believers, and not Body believers. Most MAD's believe that Jesus did not teach or preach "Body" doctrine during His incarnation.
I was trying to address this by presenting two verses that address what Paul taught, and what Jesus taught at the same time. They are as follows:
(Rom 16:25) Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began
(Acts 20:35) "I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive."
In the first verse Paul says "my gospel AND the preaching of Jesus Christ.
In the second verse Paul quotes Jesus,
My question to MAD's who beleive Jesus did not preach or teach "Body" doctrine (during His incarnation), is how do these verses fit into that beleif system?
"Thoughtless", meaning that it's not a thought-out argument. The notion was set forth that since Jesus is our Savior, we must heed his words. If that logic is true, then we should heed God the Father's words about keeping the Sabbath and not eating catfish, since He is the giver or our salvation.
That's all I was saying, tet.
Hi cm:
What I am trying to explain is that most traditional A2D's understand that what Jesus said and taught does not apply to them 100% of the time.
MAD, in my opinion, claims that Jesus taught 0% Body doctrine. Where A2D's believe that Jesus taught some Body doctrine since they believe the Body began at Pentecost.
The question I have asked in my previous two posts is how MAD fits Romans 16:25 & Acts 20:35 into the MAD belief that Jesus taught 0% Body doctrine.
That's all.
Pam Baldwin
New member
Hi tetelestai.
I don't know what all "MAD"ers claim. I can only speak for myself.
Maybe this is splitting hairs, but it is true that Jesus taught 0% of Body Doctrine. Since the Body was not revealed unitl PAul, that would be impossible.
BUT, how we live, in many ways , is the same "rules" that were throughout Scriptures. So in this sense, we do apply some OT and what Jesus taught. Sin is still sin. The 10 commandments (minus the Sabbath one since we have no holy days) are still for this dispensation. The reasons why we follow them may be different though. Murder is still murder, adultery is still adultery.
Here's what I mean:
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
So, actually, I can say that when I read Jesus' words, I realize that even though they are not written to the Body, I can apply much of it.
If I remember correctly, chickenman did say this earlier in this thread.
But Body DOCTRINE, Jesus did not teach.
Pam
Hi Pam:
I agree with you, thus the can of worms.
Since MAD believes Jesus did not teach Body doctrine, but lots of the things Jesus did teach are for us, then how do we determine just what things are for us, and what things are not for us that Jesus taught?
For example Jesus says to take communion and to do it in remembrance of Him. MAD believes that this command from Jesus is not for them, but for Kingdom believers only.
IOW, how do you determine what teachings of Jesus are transdispensational, and what teachings are NOT for Body believers?
There seems to be a lot of anger towards MAD’s on TOL lately, and in my opinion the MAD belief that Jesus taught no Body doctrine has a lot to do with it.
Pam Baldwin
New member
First, I appreciate the fact that you are not angry towards MAD, and me in particular.
I will attempt to answer your questions here, they are good ones.
Again, I am saying that Jesus taught no Body doctrine. But the risen Christ did teach Paul all of Body doctrine.
In the years that Paul was taught in the desert, Christ also showed him how things had "changed" too. The Rom 13:9.10 passage that Paul reiterates the very same laws as the other dispensations.
If one understands the Body, its Hope and its doctrine, its laws; then when reading the other Scriptures, it isn't too hard to compare. Also, it seems to me that Paul, as in Rom 13, does set forth the parts of the old Law that would still need obeying. We really needn't do any guesswork. He even states the sins that are the reason that many won't see the Kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9.10. So obviously, these are still sins!
Concerning the "communion" that you mentioned. Jesus had been observing the Passover Meal. This is Jewish, and a Jewish Law. The Body is not Jew nor Greek, so we do not follow those ceremonial laws now. Paul talks of a meal together in 1 Cor 11 , as the "Lord's Table". Paul reiterates what Jesus said at the Last Supper (the Passover), using that as explaining the reason why many at Corinth were sick and dieing. They were despising that which Paul "delivered unto them" (Mystery truth) by their actions- their gluttony and disregard for the other saints.
Notice that this was NOT the Passover that they were celebrating- the Passover came but once a year. It was specifically Passover that Jesus was referring to when HE ate that Last Supper with His disciples.
Well, that's it for now,
Pam
Soooooo...
Soooooo...
So, you would compartmentalize the words of Christ into what He said to the Apostles with whom He lived and the Apostle He chose after His resurrection? You are saying that the former was meant only for that generation of believers and the latter is meant only for all the rest of us? If Jesus is truly the Christ, Son of God, one Person within the Triune Godhead, then, of necessity, He is universal in all of His words. Every word which proceeds from the mouth of God is for our edification. You are raising the words of Paul above the words of Jesus. You are essentially confining Jesus to one generation of believers and making Paul the bringer of the "Good News" to all subsequent generations. Your focus is microscopic. peace, bybee
Soooooo...
First, I appreciate the fact that you are not angry towards MAD, and me in particular.
I will attempt to answer your questions here, they are good ones.
Again, I am saying that Jesus taught no Body doctrine. But the risen Christ did teach Paul all of Body doctrine.
In the years that Paul was taught in the desert, Christ also showed him how things had "changed" too. The Rom 13:9.10 passage that Paul reiterates the very same laws as the other dispensations.
If one understands the Body, its Hope and its doctrine, its laws; then when reading the other Scriptures, it isn't too hard to compare. Also, it seems to me that Paul, as in Rom 13, does set forth the parts of the old Law that would still need obeying. We really needn't do any guesswork. He even states the sins that are the reason that many won't see the Kingdom of God. 1 Cor 6:9.10. So obviously, these are still sins!
Concerning the "communion" that you mentioned. Jesus had been observing the Passover Meal. This is Jewish, and a Jewish Law. The Body is not Jew nor Greek, so we do not follow those ceremonial laws now. Paul talks of a meal together in 1 Cor 11 , as the "Lord's Table". Paul reiterates what Jesus said at the Last Supper (the Passover), using that as explaining the reason why many at Corinth were sick and dieing. They were despising that which Paul "delivered unto them" (Mystery truth) by their actions- their gluttony and disregard for the other saints.
Notice that this was NOT the Passover that they were celebrating- the Passover came but once a year. It was specifically Passover that Jesus was referring to when HE ate that Last Supper with His disciples.
Well, that's it for now,
Pam
So, you would compartmentalize the words of Christ into what He said to the Apostles with whom He lived and the Apostle He chose after His resurrection? You are saying that the former was meant only for that generation of believers and the latter is meant only for all the rest of us? If Jesus is truly the Christ, Son of God, one Person within the Triune Godhead, then, of necessity, He is universal in all of His words. Every word which proceeds from the mouth of God is for our edification. You are raising the words of Paul above the words of Jesus. You are essentially confining Jesus to one generation of believers and making Paul the bringer of the "Good News" to all subsequent generations. Your focus is microscopic. peace, bybee
Pam Baldwin
New member
Wow. Did I say that?? :jawdrop: If that's what you undersand me to say, then I did a lousy job of articutaling...:dunce:
Why is it that I am accused of raising the words of PAul above the words of Jesus? I think that chickenman or STP explained that before. Paul's "words" are just as much Scripture as Isaiah or Luke. Paul is telling us what Christ Jesus told him....just as Luke is telling us what Jesus said and did, and Isaiah telling us what prophesy he got for God....and on and on. Chickeman and STP and others have said over and over again-- you can say the same thing about the Jews elevating Moses too ( using the same application that you use for PAul)
Do you actually apply ALL the words of Jesus? .....:think:....nope, I didn't think so. Or how about the Law in the OT?.....:think:.....nope, I didn't think so. (When was it you last sacrificed a lamb? Cut any hands off lately?)
However, I do agree that every word form the mouth of God IS for edification....but not to be obeyed directly by us now.
Now, now...
Now, now...
it is not a matter of "Do I?". It is a matter of "Will I try?" to heed the Words of Jesus the Christ? Who came to fulfill the Law and I agree that not every law is salvific BUT, we don't toss the baby out with the bath water do we? Those Laws which pertain to our salvation remain enforceable. Your statements about what I may do or not do have become quite stale. I believe, along with you Madsters that Paul did receive a Dispensation to the gentiles. I further believe that he realized that to be effective he had to speak "gentile" language. The Greeks were in love with "The Body Beautiful" No way they would let anyone mess with their foreskins! bybee
Now, now...
it is not a matter of "Do I?". It is a matter of "Will I try?" to heed the Words of Jesus the Christ? Who came to fulfill the Law and I agree that not every law is salvific BUT, we don't toss the baby out with the bath water do we? Those Laws which pertain to our salvation remain enforceable. Your statements about what I may do or not do have become quite stale. I believe, along with you Madsters that Paul did receive a Dispensation to the gentiles. I further believe that he realized that to be effective he had to speak "gentile" language. The Greeks were in love with "The Body Beautiful" No way they would let anyone mess with their foreskins! bybee
Chickenman, Here is my problem with understanding MAD. Please show me where I misunderstand the position.
Paul was given the mantle of Apostleship to the Gentiles as was Peter to the Jews.
Paul states the following:
Ephesians 3: 1-7 (KJV)
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
I understand this to be a basis for MAD. I understand the MAD position to be that this mystery is not shown anywhere in the Gospels. Should this be so, could you help me understand the meaning of the following:
John 17:20-26 (KJV)
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
In this passage, doesn't Jesus reveal that others will believe on Him without revealing who those "others" are? Aren't those others Gentiles and Jews. This is only one of many questions but I would like to start here. Thanks for your willingness to explain the MAD position. Raven
Paul was given the mantle of Apostleship to the Gentiles as was Peter to the Jews.
Paul states the following:
Ephesians 3: 1-7 (KJV)
1For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
2If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
I understand this to be a basis for MAD. I understand the MAD position to be that this mystery is not shown anywhere in the Gospels. Should this be so, could you help me understand the meaning of the following:
John 17:20-26 (KJV)
20Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.
In this passage, doesn't Jesus reveal that others will believe on Him without revealing who those "others" are? Aren't those others Gentiles and Jews. This is only one of many questions but I would like to start here. Thanks for your willingness to explain the MAD position. Raven
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Hi Raven, I hope :chicken: doesn't mind me giving this quick reply.
Yes, Jesus speaks of the entire world in that passage, but it is THROUGH Israel's RISE.
Paul is writing to Gentiles who never had any association whatsoever with Israel and were saved APART from Israel, through their FALL.
Do you see the distinction?
His prayer specifically states "those who believe on Me through their word"
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That's a double whammy, first because it through the word of those He is praying for and not those during the period of the Jewish "rise" and secondly it is through THEIR word and not Pauls.
And to forestall you saying that they will be raised to rule in the earthly kingdom in order to complete this prayer, remember we have established that these and other Jewish believers were made one body with the Gentiles by the cross-remember? Paul had a dispensation to declare the mystery?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Due to the nature of the other threads you've started, I doubt you are a sincere inquisitor into MAD. Read the original post.
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Can't answer huh