Finland fined driver $60,000 for going 14 mph over the limit

[genuineoriginal]

In other words, you quoted an irrelevant verse.

I showed you that there are times when God does not make the rich pay more nor the poor pay less.

It broke your argument that God is a communist who always wants the rich to pay more than the poor.

 

[shagster01]

If the only choice is between a flat income tax and a graduted income tax, then I would prefer the flat income tax.

However, I actually prefer that the Federal government was paid by the States, based on the population of each State, and though tariffs and excise taxes, in the manner set up by the writers of the Constitution.

And I prefer no income tax, but higher sales tax. Then everyone, including illegals and visitors, pay the tax too.

That is fair.

 

[shagster01]

I showed you that there are times when God does not make the rich pay more nor the poor pay less.

It broke your argument that God is a communist who always wants the rich to pay more than the poor.

And then Jesus came and provided the verse I quoted showing that he did indeed notice percentages.

 

[The Berean]

Perhaps it doesn't, per se. But apparently % does matter:


Luke 21:1-4
Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box, and he saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. And he said, “Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. For they all contributed out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”

Ok and? You went from the topic of the "tithe" in the Old Testament to the New Testament. Jesus also said this.

Matthew 20:1-16
20 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a landowner who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. 2 When he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. 3 And he went out about the third hour and saw others standing idle in the market place; 4 and to those he said, ‘You also go into the vineyard, and whatever is right I will give you.’ And so they went. 5 Again he went out about the sixth and the ninth hour, and did [e]the same thing. 6 And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing around; and he said to them, ‘Why have you been standing here idle all day long?’ 7 They said to him, ‘Because no one hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’

8 “When evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last group to the first.’ 9 When those hired about the eleventh hour came, each one received a denarius. 10 When those hired first came, they thought that they would receive more; but each of them also received a denarius. 11 When they received it, they grumbled at the landowner, 12 saying, ‘These last men have worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden and the scorching heat of the day.’ 13 But he answered and said to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong; did you not agree with me for a denarius? 14 Take what is yours and go, but I wish to give to this last man the same as to you. 15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I wish with what is my own? Or is your eye envious because I am generous?’ 16 So the last shall be first, and the first last.”

Back to your tax statements, does this mean that if this was a "tax" the poor woman should actually get more votes, being that Jesus clearly said "Truly, I tell you, this poor widow has put in more than all of them," even though the amount was less?

Using genuineoriginal's system I would say yes.

 

[genuineoriginal]

And then Jesus came and provided the verse I quoted showing that he did indeed notice percentages.

However, we are speaking of the fines and punishments for breaking the law, not the percent paid in voluntary offerings.

Here is what the Bible says about whether God makes rich people pay more than poor people for breaking the Law.

Romans 2:5-11 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.​

 

[shagster01]

However, we are speaking of the fines and punishments for breaking the law, not the percent paid in voluntary offerings.

Here is what the Bible says about whether God makes rich people pay more than poor people for breaking the Law.

Romans 2:5-11 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: 11 For there is no respect of persons with God.​

Do you vote republican?

 

[shagster01]

Using genuineoriginal's system I would say yes.

So then I could make 100 dollars this year, pay it all in taxes, and own the government?

Sweet!

 

[genuineoriginal]

Do you vote republican?

I vote for the person best suited for the office.
Occasionally, that will be a Republican.

 

[Tambora]

And I prefer no income tax, but higher sales tax. Then everyone, including illegals and visitors, pay the tax too.

That is fair.

In other words, the rich and the poor alike pay the same amount for the same product.

Yep, that's fair.

 

[shagster01]

In other words, the rich and the poor alike pay the same amount for the same product.

Yep, that's fair.

That would depend. I bet the product would cost more in Malibu than in Detroit.

The free market would set the price.

But yes, I understand what you are saying.

 

[Tambora]

And then Jesus came and provided the verse I quoted showing that he did indeed notice percentages.

Freewill offerings are just that, freewill offerings.
It was not mandatory like taxes are.

 

[shagster01]

Freewill offerings are just that, freewill offerings.
It was not mandatory like taxes are.

But my overall point is that Republicans get on here arguing that flat tax is needed, but flat fines are communism.

Do they want their cake, or want to eat it?

 

[Granite]

Gotta say, you Christians really know how to kill a conversation.

When things are bogged down, nothing ever gets done. If you guys contented yourselves to this angels on pinhead crap, I'd be happy.

 

[Stripe]

Are you consistent and would you say the same thing about a crack or heroin addict?

Addicts? That's a separate category. Drug use. I think the law should punish for harm done. So perhaps drugs should not be illegal, but only when their use can't be used as an excuse for lawyers to give criminals a way out of the death penalty.

How about a company dumping toxic waste into the river - all is fine until someone gets hurt?

"Harm done," not "someone gets hurt."

It pays to think through your knee-jerk reactions.

That's like saying it's fine to drive drunk until you kill someone.

It's fine to drive. If you kill someone, you should be punished. If you drive drunk and kill someone, you should be executed.

 

[resodko]

Now this opens up a discussion on what constitutes "fairness". How do you define "fairness"? What slack do "rich people" get in paying speeding tickets? If Person A and person B are caught speeding the same amount over the speed limit shouldn't they pay the same fine? That is the epitome of "fairness".

perhaps the problem lies in assigning monetary values to breaking the law

how about if anybody - rich or poor who speeds gets jail time, or their license revoked for a period of time?

This idea that "rich people" should pay more for a speeding ticket because they have a higher income seems strange. I guess McDonalds should charge Bill Gates $100,000 for a Big Mac because he can afford it?

:think: i'm envisioning a scenario where you can't buy a cheeseburger without showing your last years 1040 long form :chuckle:

 

[kmoney]

Now this opens up a discussion on what constitutes "fairness". How do you define "fairness"? What slack do "rich people" get in paying speeding tickets? If Person A and person B are caught speeding the same amount over the speed limit shouldn't they pay the same fine? That is the epitome of "fairness". This idea that "rich people" should pay more for a speeding ticket because they have a higher income seems strange. I guess McDonalds should charge Bill Gates $100,000 for a Big Mac because he can afford it?

Same fine as in dollar amount? Is that the epitome of fairness? :idunno: In a case like this I tend to think using percentages is more fair. And I think part of it is what the law is intended to do. If part of the idea is deterrence then it seems foolish to think that the same dollar amount is going to be the same deterrent to everyone. You're a sports fan so think about in sports when someone gets a certain fine and often times we know that the person won't actually care because they make millions.

As for your McDonald's example, I bet they'd try it if they thought they could get away with it and had a practical way of doing it. :greedy:


Does anyone else think that there are privacy concerns in having proportional fines though? How does the city find out how much you make? :idunno: I mean, I guess they'd have it because of tax records, but I don't like the idea of the police looking it up to calculate the fine.

 

[kmoney]

Corporations use this method all the time.
Voting power is tied to the number of shares held by the shareholders.

I don't think that's exactly comparable. In the case of shareholders they have a greater financial stake in the success of the company so it could be reasonable to give them a greater share of votes. Is the same true for election votes? I saw you talked about the rich paying a greater share in taxes and I can see some connection and logic there. But taxes aren't a financial investment that gives someone an ongoing stake in the financial success of the country. And voting is about more than how the gov't spends its money.

 

[Stripe]

perhaps the problem lies in assigning monetary values to breaking the law

That is a problem; it is not the problem.

how about if anybody - rich or poor who speeds gets jail time, or their license revoked for a period of time?

Jail time is expensive. Taxpayers should not have to bear a burden because people like to drive fast.

Speedsters should be stopped and processed on the spot with no fines involved. If a speeding driver causes harm, he should have to pay for the harm. If he is a known speedster and causes harm through speeding, he should be held criminally liable.

 

[Stripe]

:mock: gaynit

 

[kmoney]

Jail time is expensive. Taxpayers should not have to bear a burden because people like to drive fast.

I agree. Monetary punishments for crimes can be problematic but I don't think jail time is the answer. Nor revoked licenses.

Speedsters should be stopped and processed on the spot with no fines involved. If a speeding driver causes harm, he should have to pay for the harm. If he is a known speedster and causes harm through speeding, he should be held criminally liable.

I'm not sure what you mean here. Pay for the harm how?
And are speedsters only stopped and processed if harm is done? or no matter what?