ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

[God's Truth]

In the old law, there were different kinds of works.

There were works as in don't do this and that sin, and there were works that the Jews had to do to CLEAN THEMSELVES.

The only works we no longer have to do are the works to clean ourselves!

People misunderstand Paul and think he says don't obey anything!!!

 

[God's Truth]

It is only the SELF-RIGHTEOUS, like you, that believe that they have achieved perfect obedience. You ARE the Pharisee in Luke 18!

What are you talking about comparing ME to the Pharisees when it is YOU who are like them! The Pharisees believed AS YOU PREACH. The Pharisees did NOT repent of their SINS---just like you teach we do not have to do.

As for you saying I am self righteous...no, I am not to my self, I am to the Lord, for you can NEVER, EVER shame me for obeying Jesus' words. You cannot EVER make obeying Jesus to none effect. God's words are powerful and true, and there is NEVER, EVER a wrong time or a wrong way to obey, as you teach.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Paul was rebuking the Galatians for observing the Jewish special days and for wanting to get circumcised!!!

Why did you refuse to answer? Again, please answer the following question put forth by the Apostle Paul:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3;1-3).​

Does your answer match with what you said earlier?:

God gives His Spirit to those who believe and obey.

Please notice that according to Paul the Spirit is received as a result of faith and nothing else!

There were works as in don't do this and that sin, and there were works that the Jews had to do to CLEAN THEMSELVES.

Which works does Paul mention here?:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

 

[God's Truth]

Why did you refuse to answer? Again, please answer the following question put forth by the Apostle Paul:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal.3;1-3).​

Does your answer match with what you said earlier?:



Please notice that according to Paul the Spirit is received as a result of faith and nothing else!

I carefully explained the truth to you but you claim I refuse to answer.

It shows that you are blind.

Jesus didn't command for us to do the ceremonial/purification works anymore, for HE FULFILLED them.

No one has to do THOSE WORKS anymore, because they were works to clean us, and Jesus cleans us now.

We still as ALWAYS have to obey God, we just don't have to get circumcised anymore.

 

[dodge]

Where are those who teach that no one can be saved except by faith and obedience?

Do they not want to share their wisdom with us?

Jerry, how would you answer a man who says I have faith and currently in a homosexual relationship ? DO you believe his faith while living in disobedience to God's command and word has done him any good ? Do you believe homosexuals are OK with God ?

It is not about obedience to be saved but that does NOT remove responsibility to OBEY God !

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Jerry, how would you answer a man who says I have faith and currently in a homosexual relationship ? DO you believe his faith while living in disobedience to God's command and word has done him any good ? Do you believe homosexuals are OK with God ?

It is not about obedience to be saved but that does NOT remove responsibility to OBEY God !

You're a sinner too, are you OK with God?

 

[Right Divider]

What are you talking about comparing ME to the Pharisees when it is YOU who are like them! The Pharisees believed AS YOU PREACH. The Pharisees did NOT repent of their SINS---just like you teach we do not have to do.

As for you saying I am self righteous...no, I am not to my self, I am to the Lord, for you can NEVER, EVER shame me for obeying Jesus' words. You cannot EVER make obeying Jesus to none effect. God's words are powerful and true, and there is NEVER, EVER a wrong time or a wrong way to obey, as you teach.

You are self-righteous and blind.

 

[dodge]

You're a sinner too, are you OK with God?

There is only "one" sin I know of in scripture where God gives those in that sin a reprobate mind. God seems to warn that the sin of homosexuality has a point of no return !

I do not promote and advocate others commit any sin I have ever committed do you ?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

There is only "one" sin I know of in scripture where God gives those in that sin a reprobate mind. God seems to warn that the sin of homosexuality has a point of no return !

I do not promote and advocate others commit any sin I have ever committed do you ?

Idolatry, read the entire passage


Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[dodge]

Idolatry, read the entire passage

I figured it out you cannot follow the passage !


Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[jsanford108]

The LORD demands obedience from those who are already saved.

Those who do not understand that salvation is by the grace of God through faith alone do not understand, much less believe, the gospel which saves.

Don't be a victim and since your eternal destiny is in the balance depend on nothing but what the Scriptures say because:

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pet.5:8).​

First off, one cannot utilize Scripture's such as the famous "false gospels" quote, logically, to demonstrate that Faith+works is a false doctrine; after all, I could claim that yours is the "false gospel." So in the spirit of intellectual conversation, one should refrain from painting wish such unbased strokes.

Secondly, note the first sentence I quoted of yours. "The Lord demands obedience...." What would that be classified as, friend? Works! "Works" are not simple good deeds, like charity. "Works" are obedient actions that fulfill the commands of God and Christ Himself. Works are pleasing to God. Know that you are justified by you works and not by faith alone (James 2).

Third, when you say "salvation by grace through faith alone" you are wrong. No where, in the entirety of the Bible, does it say this phrase. It says "salvation by grace through faith," but never "faith alone" (except in James where the words are preceded by "not by"). This is a classic example of Eisegesis.

Fourth, notice the last quote of yours I provided, which includes your quotation of 1 Peter. "Be sober, be vigilant." What are these, but actions! Works! Your own defenses and offensive points (offensive being denotative not connotative) contradict the doctrine you are defending. The Lord expects obedience (works!), be vigilant (an act of maintaining faith, ie: "working at it"), all points to the simple fact and logic that faith requires works and actions on our part as believers. Faith without works is dead. (James agrees).


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I figured it out you cannot follow the passage !


Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Idolatry, and other sins.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Third, when you say "salvation by grace through faith alone" you are wrong.

Then Paul was wrong:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

 

[dodge]

Idolatry, and other sins.

Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Because man did the above God did this:

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Because they did the above God did this:

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Since they did not want to retain God in their knowledge God did this:


28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

 

[DAN P]

There is only "one" sin I know of in scripture where God gives those in that sin a reprobate mind. God seems to warn that the sin of homosexuality has a point of no return !

I do not promote and advocate others commit any sin I have ever committed do you ?

Hi and REPROBATE ? ADOKINOS means CASTAWAY , NOT STANDING THE TEST , NOT APPROVED , REJECTED !!

The same Greek word is used in 1 Cor 9:27 and the KJV translated it , as ADOKINOS / CASTAWY !!

dan p

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Romans 1
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Idolatry.

It usually leads to sexual perversion, as well.

 

[dodge]

Idolatry.

It usually leads to sexual perversion, as well.

Professing themselves to be wise they became fools and everything else followed.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Jerry, how would you answer a man who says I have faith and currently in a homosexual relationship ? DO you believe his faith while living in disobedience to God's command and word has done him any good ? Do you believe homosexuals are OK with God ?

It is not about obedience to be saved but that does NOT remove responsibility to OBEY God !

I never said that Christians do not have the responsibility to OBEY God!

I would tell any Christian to cease from any homosexual relationship because we are to keep ourselves holy (Ro.12:1).

On the other hand I would tell an unsaved homosexual that those who believe the gospel of grace are saved and I would use Paul's own testimony as my evidence:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

I would also quote these words of Paul to him:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" (1 Tim.1:15).​

To you I say what the Lord Jesus said here:

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" (Jn.8:7).​

Would you tell an unsaved homosexual that before he can be saved he has to first believe and then cease from having any homosexual relationships?

 

[dodge]

Jerry Shugart;4997580]I never said that Christians do not have the responsibility to OBEY God!

Sure reads that way:

Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Shugart View Post
Where are those who teach that no one can be saved except by faith and obedience?

Do they not want to share their wisdom with us?

Faith saves but saving faith leads to one loving, following, and obeying God, and when one sins and fails God they ask HIM for forgiveness it is called repenting !

I would tell any Christian to cease from any homosexual relationship because we are to keep ourselves holy (Ro.12:1).

The difference in your opinion and scripture is God said at some point in the sin of homosexuality He will curse them with a "REPROBATE MIND". So no there are no homosexual Christians.

On the other hand I would tell an unsaved homosexual that those who believe the gospel of grace are saved and I would use Paul's own testimony as my evidence:

As would anyone witnessing to the truth but those who believe God and trust Jesus would not leave off repentance !

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).

I would also quote these words of Paul to him:

"This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief" (1 Tim.1:15).​

So you would speak to salvation without repenting. BINGO you have zero clue.

To you I say what the Lord Jesus said here:

"So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her" (Jn.8:7).​

Scripture teaches righteous judgement another words repeating God's truth to life and walking in light to REMOVE them from darkness.

Would you tell an unsaved homosexual that before he can be saved he has to first believe and then cease from having any homosexual relationships?

I would share the truth of God that their chosen life style is leading them to eternal hell and if they do not repent and place their faith in Jesus they are condemned for eternity. It isn't politically correct but it is scripture.

So you believe in salvation without repentance as scripture teaches repentance?

 

[dodge]

Hi and REPROBATE ? ADOKINOS means CASTAWAY , NOT STANDING THE TEST , NOT APPROVED , REJECTED !!

The same Greek word is used in 1 Cor 9:27 and the KJV translated it , as ADOKINOS / CASTAWY !!

dan p

close dan !

noun
1.
a depraved, unprincipled, or wicked person:
a drunken reprobate.
2.
a person rejected by God and beyond hope of salvation.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/reprobate