ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

[glorydaz]

If all the jailer had to do is believe and nothing else, why did he ask what he had to do and why then was he water baptized with the baptism of repentance?

We see the jailer asking what he must do to be saved.
We see they say, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
We see them preaching the Gospel.

Acts 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.​

Why aren't you adding that he had to be washed, baptized, serve the men a meal, and rejoice in order to be saved? That's all written right there before we see the jailer believed. :chew:

Acts 16
33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.​

 

[DAN P]

We are both wrong it is a transitive verb the way it is used.

Definition of transitive
1
: characterized by having or containing a direct object a transitive verb
2
: being or relating to a relation with the property that if the relation holds between a first element and a second and between the second element and a third, it holds between the first and third elements equality is a transitive relation
3
: of, relating to, or characterized by transition.

noun
1.
an unprincipled person (often used humorously or affectionately).
synonyms: rogue, rascal, scoundrel, miscreant, good-for-nothing, villain, wretch, rake, degenerate, libertine, debauchee; More
2.
CHRISTIAN THEOLOGYarchaic
(especially in Calvinism) a sinner who is not of the elect and is predestined to damnation.
adjective
1.
unprincipled (often used as a humorous or affectionate reproach).
"a long-missed old reprobate drinking comrade"
synonyms: unprincipled, bad, roguish, wicked, rakish, shameless, immoral, degenerate, dissipated, debauched, depraved; archaicknavish
"reprobate behavior"
2.
CHRISTIAN THEOLOGYarchaic
(in Calvinism) predestined to damnation.
verbarchaic
1.
express or feel disapproval of.
"his neighbors reprobated his method of proceeding"

https://www.google.com/search?q=rep...69i65l2j0l3.8607j0j4&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8

Hi and then I checked VINE'S dictionary and REPROBATE is an ADJECTIVE !!

dan p

 

[turbosixx]

If a person has true faith, they will want to live differently than they did before.

I agree, and that is what I understand true faith to be, obedience. I know people and I'm sure you do to, that proclaim to be Christians and know that Jesus is Lord and Savior but do not live as Christians. I talked to one of my co-workers who was cheating on his wife and told him it wasn't right with God. He said he's saved but he just won't have any rewards. Basically what Jerry's preaching, all you have to do is believe and you can live as you wish.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

I talked to one of my co-workers who was cheating on his wife and told him it wasn't right with God. He said he's saved but he just won't have any rewards. Basically what Jerry's preaching, all you have to do is believe and you can live as you wish.

Once a person believes he has eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus said that those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

Therefore, a believer enjoys eternal security from the moment when he believes.

It's really very simple.

 

[turbosixx]

You speak of the "commandments".....Have you ever wondered why God gave man the commandments to begin with? We find out when we read the Apostle Paul and what the RISEN LORD revealed to him.

Paul calls those commandments which were engraven in stone a "ministration of death'. Do you know why? Because they were given to show men their sin and find them guilty before God.

You are correct but I wasn't speaking of the old law. Jesus did away with the law and it's commandments by his sacrifice but in Christ we have commandments, not like the old but commandments all the same.

1 Thes. 4:1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

They also don't have to be call commandments to be commandments. For example, when we read the requirements for an elder, do we have the authority to change them or ignore them when appointing elders?

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

When Jesus came, He made them even harder to follow than they were. He said it wasn't just what a man did, but what he thought or determined in his heart that would find him guilty.

So the law was our schoolmaster....to bring us to Christ where we could be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.​

Now we know that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe. Rom. 10:4KJV

I agree

As far as the vine, that pertained to the Jews (the circumcision). We are members of the body of Christ, and there is not "cutting off" of those in Him.

I believe there is. First off, Jesus says "in me" whether Israel or the body. Second, we have an example when men were trying to add circumcision to the gospel, Paul tells them if they do then they have fallen from grace and been severed from Christ. Severed is cut off.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
You can't severe a limb that is not attached and you can't fall from a position you haven't attained.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[Nanja]

Once a person believes he has eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus said that those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

Therefore, a believer enjoys eternal security from the moment when he believes.

It's really very simple.

But the only believing that pleases God is a fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth Gal. 5:22, because they that are in the flesh [carnal; the natural man] cannot please God Rom. 8:8; 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[turbosixx]

Once a person believes he has eternal life in the Son (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus said that those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

Therefore, a believer enjoys eternal security from the moment when he believes.

It's really very simple.

It is simple.
1 Jn. 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

1 Cor. 6:9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[DAN P]

It is simple.
1 Jn. 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
/QUOTE]


Hi and what commandments are you talking ABOUT ?

Name a few , IF you can ?

dan p

 

[Cross Reference]

And here we see the difference between the saved and the unsaved.

The saved have no desire for sin, and they know it has no dominion over them.

But the unsaved obsess over sin with it's power and it's draw. They see it everywhere (imagining it has power over everyone they meet). To them it's a force to be reckoned with....as if the Cross accomplished nothing. Thus they are unbelievers, and their view of sin proves it.

`

Interesting that warfare against sin doesn't begin until one is born again. That is something one who is just saved doesn't find out until he is born again. Jesus knew all about that sort of thing.

 

[turbosixx]

It is simple.
1 Jn. 2:4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

Hi and what commandments are you talking ABOUT ?

Name a few , IF you can ?

dan p

Paul gave commandments.
1 Thes. 4:1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.
Then he lists some in verses 3-7 then he says
8 So, he who rejects this is not rejecting man but the God who gives His Holy Spirit to you.

Do we have the authority to change the Lord's supper from unleavened bread and fruit of the vine to cookies and milk?

 

[Cross Reference]

He did it for us because He knew we couldn't. He took on the wages of our sin...death.

Paul tells us the law is for sinners, and Christ is the end of the law for those who believe.

"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:7-8 (KJV)

I wonder why Jesus would say such a thing?

 

[Cross Reference]

I don't know what it is you're asking,

I was just wondering why you would believe a born again Christian doesn't need a schoolmaster? Jesus needed one.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But the only believing that pleases God is a fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth Gal. 5:22, because they that are in the flesh [carnal; the natural man] cannot please God Rom. 8:8; 1 Cor 2:14.

That does not change the fact that the Christian already possesses eternal life (1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus said that those to whom He gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

Therefore, the Christian enjoys eternal security from the moment he believes.

 

[jamie]

Be no more a HORROR forever.

Ezek 28:19 (AKJV/PCE)​

(28:19) All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never [shalt] thou [be] any more.
​

This is NOT about some supposed "ceasing to exist". You made that up.

Satan will be turned to ashes, which is not much of an existence.

Therefore I brought fire from your midst, it devoured you and I turned you to ashes upon the earth... (Ezekiel 28:18)​

 

[glorydaz]

You are correct but I wasn't speaking of the old law. Jesus did away with the law and it's commandments by his sacrifice but in Christ we have commandments, not like the old but commandments all the same.

1 Thes. 4:1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

Those are the same commandments, and they have the same purpose. "You know the commandments...", Paul is reminding them of what they are....these people from Rome needed to understand what God's laws were just as all men do. That doesn't change the fact that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe. It isn't obeying the commandments that saves us or keeps us saved.

Church order is another thing altogether. Those aren't "commandments" from God that if not obeyed would bring "death" like the others were.

I believe there is. First off, Jesus says "in me" whether Israel or the body. Second, we have an example when men were trying to add circumcision to the gospel, Paul tells them if they do then they have fallen from grace and been severed from Christ. Severed is cut off.

Gal. 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
You can't severe a limb that is not attached and you can't fall from a position you haven't attained.

Thanks for your comments.

As far as the vine, it isn't like the body, because we can never be "severed" from Christ.

You should check your translation on "severed". Paul specifically speaks of those who are "justified by the law". They have fallen from grace, because grace can only be accessed through faith.

Gal. 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.​

We see the same here...grace can be frustrated when it isn't accessed by faith.

Galatians 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.​

All those who attempt to access grace through their own obedience frustrate the grace of God..."then Christ is dead in vain."

 

[jsanford108]

Paul:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth" (Ro.1:16).​

According to your ideas the gospel by itself is not the "the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." According to you a person must do other things besides believe to be saved.

Peter:

"Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God...And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you" (1 Pet.1:23,25).​

A person is born again by the word of God, the gospel. If it takes more than that then why didn't Peter mention anything else?

James:

"He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created" (Jas.1;18).​

That is the same truth which Peter preached about the new birth. But according to your ideas it is impossible to be born again by just the gospel.

The Lord Jesus:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

According to your ideas no one can inherit eternal life just by believing.

At no point have I disagreed with the apostles. I have disagreed with the doctrine you have presented, as well as the conclusions you "reached."

Allow me to give a hypothetical scenario. I do ask that you be completely unbiased and honest with yourself.

A man is a devout Christian. He holds to the same faith as you in every aspect. One day though, he decides to run a brothel. He runs it and lays with the workers. He lives a life of sin. Then, at the end of his life, he realizes the error of his ways, and returns to a life of devotion.

No doubt he goes to heaven. However, would you say he was "saved" the whole time? If he had died while running the brothel, living a life completely immersed in sin, would he have gone to heaven?

Faith alone doctrine must declare the man maintained his salvation the whole time, because "works profit nothing." Faith + works would say that he returned to salvation by an act of grace and obedience.

See how faith alone rids one of the necessity of obedience and even the commandments? Because "all you need is faith," right? This teaching is in direct contradiction with the whole of the Bible. As is "once saved, always saved." These two are grouped together because they must rely on each other out of necessity. And yet, they still cannot stand the simplest scrutiny of "obedience" and James, logically.


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[glorydaz]

I was just wondering why you would believe a born again Christian doesn't need a schoolmaster? Jesus needed one.

We are no longer in need of a schoolmaster, because we have the indwelling Spirit to lead and guide us into all truth....ever making intercession for us.

Gal. 3:25-26 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.​

Romans 8:26-27 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

John 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.​

Are you referring to the law when you say Jesus needed a schoolmaster or His teacher in His youth?

 

[glorydaz]

"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth? Luke 18:7-8 (KJV)

I wonder why Jesus would say such a thing?

Seems like it was because He was seeing all the injustice being heaped upon his disciples and the least among us. Still the assurance is that He will avenge all the elect, and so He will.

 

[Ktoyou]

So many of these threads are " you can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink"

 

[glorydaz]

At no point have I disagreed with the apostles. I have disagreed with the doctrine you have presented, as well as the conclusions you "reached."

Allow me to give a hypothetical scenario. I do ask that you be completely unbiased and honest with yourself.

A man is a devout Christian. He holds to the same faith as you in every aspect. One day though, he decides to run a brothel. He runs it and lays with the workers. He lives a life of sin. Then, at the end of his life, he realizes the error of his ways, and returns to a life of devotion.

No doubt he goes to heaven. However, would you say he was "saved" the whole time? If he had died while running the brothel, living a life completely immersed in sin, would he have gone to heaven?

Faith alone doctrine must declare the man maintained his salvation the whole time, because "works profit nothing." Faith + works would say that he returned to salvation by an act of grace and obedience.

See how faith alone rids one of the necessity of obedience and even the commandments? Because "all you need is faith," right? This teaching is in direct contradiction with the whole of the Bible. As is "once saved, always saved." These two are grouped together because they must rely on each other out of necessity. And yet, they still cannot stand the simplest scrutiny of "obedience" and James, logically.

I know you didn't ask me this, but let me ask you something. What if you died when you were only slightly immersed in sin? How much sin would be acceptable? Gold, silver, wood, stubble....we'll all have some of each. The refiner's fire will do it's work.

1 Cor. 3:11-15
For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.​