ECT Faith + Obedience = Salvation?

glorydaz

Well-known member
Hello Jerry,

No worries. I am here, as a firm believer in Christ, to answer your questions.

I obviously (as several posts can affirm) hold to faith+works doctrine. So, if I may work through each question you posed in the OP.

Level of Obedience required: I would answer, complete obedience. As would every Bible believer, hopefully. Yes we fall short due to our love of sin, but that is why we must repent, right? Is not repentance a work which we do to right ourselves with Christ/God? If we do not repent, we are classified as "unrepentant" sinners.

I can't get past that in yellow. I don't believe any true believer loves sin. Nope, simply not true. We are "dead to sin"...no love there.

Romans 6:20-22 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.​
 

turbosixx

New member
As I said, if someone truly believes he will not live however he wants to live but instead in the way which the LORD wants him to live.

Why can you not understand that?

That's the way I understand it, but you're promoting living how you wish.



For what reason do you live the way which the LORD wants you to live?

Because I love God.
1 Jn. 5: 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
 

turbosixx

New member
It's not "required", but our wanting to live for Him is a result of our being a new creature.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.​


The love of God is shed abroad on our hearts by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

Romans 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.​

These are not just words. There is a great love between the Creator and the created, and when that bond is restored, nothing will break it.

Romans 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

I agree with those scriptures but we need to consider them in the light of others like here.
1 Jn. 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

What is your take on the branch in Christ that is taken away?
Jn. 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.
 

Danoh

New member
Actually, I have no plans to be circumcised or even pierced.

Lol - Apparantly the point of my post: in answer to the one by you that I was replying to; went right past your obviously "uncircumcized" ears :chuckle:
 

glorydaz

Well-known member
I agree with those scriptures but we need to consider them in the light of others like here.
1 Jn. 2:3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 The one who says, “I have come to know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;

What is your take on the branch in Christ that is taken away?
Jn. 15:2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit.



You speak of the "commandments".....Have you ever wondered why God gave man the commandments to begin with? We find out when we read the Apostle Paul and what the RISEN LORD revealed to him.

Paul calls those commandments which were engraven in stone a "ministration of death'. Do you know why? Because they were given to show men their sin and find them guilty before God.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

When Jesus came, He made them even harder to follow than they were. He said it wasn't just what a man did, but what he thought or determined in his heart that would find him guilty.

So the law was our schoolmaster....to bring us to Christ where we could be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.​

Now we know that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe. Rom. 10:4KJV


As far as the vine, that pertained to the Jews (the circumcision). We are members of the body of Christ, and there is not "cutting off" of those in Him.
 

Cross Reference

New member
You speak of the "commandments".....Have you ever wondered why God gave man the commandments to begin with? We find out when we read the Apostle Paul and what the RISEN LORD revealed to him.

Paul calls those commandments which were engraven in stone a "ministration of death'. Do you know why? Because they were given to show men their sin and find them guilty before God.

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.​

When Jesus came, He made them even harder to follow than they were. He said it wasn't just what a man did, but what he thought or determined in his heart that would find him guilty.

So the law was our schoolmaster....to bring us to Christ where we could be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.​

Now we know that Christ is the end of the law for righteousness for those who believe. Rom. 10:4KJV


As far as the vine, that pertained to the Jews (the circumcision). We are members of the body of Christ, and there is not "cutting off" of those in Him.

Ever wonder why Jesus preached/taught the "Beatitudes"?

Compare with Gal 3:24,25 KJV and then speak of who the schoolmaster now must be.
 
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jamie

New member
LIFETIME MEMBER
You speak of the "commandments".....Have you ever wondered why God gave man the commandments to begin with? We find out when we read the Apostle Paul and what the RISEN LORD revealed to him.

Paul calls those commandments which were engraven in stone a "ministration of death'. Do you know why?

How strange, Jesus said just the opposite by saying if you will enter into life keep the commandments.

He practiced what he preached, and look what it got him.

Where is Paul?
 

jsanford108

New member
Hi jsanford,

Yes, we are supposed to repent of our sinful lifestyle. But that doesn't happen until we are saved by believing the gospel (Acts 16:30-31). Once a person believes he possess eternal life (Jn.5:24;1 Jn.5:11) and the Lord Jesus said that those to whom he gives eternal life shall never perish (Jn.10:28).

So I cannot see how anyone's obedience plays a part in anyone's salvation.

How does one become saved? All the apostles said "repent and be baptized." An unrepentant soul will not be saved. Repentance must come first.

If all it takes is something as simple as faith alone, why does the Bible have so many books? What purpose is there for a majority of the the New Testament?

If God is unchanging, why does He require obedience for hundreds of years, then suddenly change His mind? Simply because He came to us physically? He had shown Himself many times in the Old Testament.

Faith alone negates commandments, charges, and entire sermons by Christ Himself.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
 

jsanford108

New member
I can't get past that in yellow. I don't believe any true believer loves sin. Nope, simply not true. We are "dead to sin"...no love there.

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Any true believer is still a mortal man, no? If a true believer hated sin, why would they ever sin? If I hate broccoli, I will never eat it. I don't think, "well I hate this, I better eat it."

Man is flesh. Man is tempted. When man falters, it is because in that moment, a conscious decision was made to do evil. At that moment, one loved sin more than God. Otherwise, would they not have stopped themselves and said, "it is not worth going against God?"

I do not mean that the person always loves sin, admires sin, or strives to sin. Such actions would be those of a nonbeliever, no? And why are these acts of a nonbeliever? Because they are clearly not obedient to God.

So if a believer, chooses in a moment not to be obedient, does that not logically prove the doctrines true, which emphasize faith+works?
 

Cross Reference

New member
How does one become saved? All the apostles said "repent and be baptized." An unrepentant soul will not be saved. Repentance must come first.

If all it takes is something as simple as faith alone, why does the Bible have so many books? What purpose is there for a majority of the the New Testament?

If God is unchanging, why does He require obedience for hundreds of years, then suddenly change His mind? Simply because He came to us physically? He had shown Himself many times in the Old Testament.

Faith alone negates commandments, charges, and entire sermons by Christ Himself.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Faith without obedience unto repentance [the pursuing a change in life style] is no faith at all. What could possibly sustain one who attempts it?
 

God's Truth

New member
Why are you trying to change the subject? Just admit that you think that Paul's answer was wrong.

Don't lie about me and what I said. That is deceitful when a reader comes along and believes what you post will think I said.

As for changing the topic, it is about OBEYING. The people asked what must we do to be saved, and many times the scriptures show they were baptized with the baptism of REPENTANCE.
 

God's Truth

New member
Once a person truly believes he wants to live like the Lord wants him to live. However, Paul does say this:

"All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify" (1 Cor.10:23).​

"All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any"
(1 Cor.6:12).​

No, we can't just keep trying to obey to no avail. That is not an over comer.

Now read again what Paul is saying, he is QUOTING what a person MIGHT say when the person carelessly eats meat in front of another person and merely says it is lawful for him. It is about GENTILES not eating PORK in front of Jews.

You are a self taught believer who has not studied the written Word with the help of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, who is given to those who OBEY.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
How does one become saved?

Here is how Paul and those with him answered that question:

"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house" (Acts 16:30-31).​

All the apostles said "repent and be baptized." An unrepentant soul will not be saved. Repentance must come first.

Before a person could be baptized with water that person must first believe, as witnessed by the following exchange between Philip and the eunuch:

"And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God"
(Acts 8:36-37).​

Before the eunuch was baptized with water he was already "born of God" because he believed that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God..For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?"
(1 Jn.5:1,4-5).​

There can be no doubt that the eunuch received eternal life and was "born of God" before he was baptized with water. The repenting from one's previous sinful lifestyle happens after one is already saved.

If all it takes is something as simple as faith alone, why does the Bible have so many books? What purpose is there for a majority of the the New Testament?

Here is one of the reasons why the gospel of John was written according to John himself:

"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name"
(Jn.20:31-32).​

If God is unchanging, why does He require obedience for hundreds of years, then suddenly change His mind? Simply because He came to us physically? He had shown Himself many times in the Old Testament.

The LORD has not changed in regard to how a person is made right in His mind, as witnessed by what is said here about Abraham:

"And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness" (Gen.15:5-6).​

The LORD demands obedience from those who are already saved.

Those who do not understand that salvation is by the grace of God through faith alone do not understand, much less believe, the gospel which saves. They have been deceived into believing a counterfeit gospel:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God"
(2 Cor.4:5-6).​

Beware of those who unwittingly serve the god of this age and leave a path of destruction in their wake:

"For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works" (2 Cor.11:13-15).​

Don't be a victim and since your eternal destiny is in the balance depend on nothing but what the Scriptures say because:

"Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour" (1 Pet.5:8).​
 

God's Truth

New member
As I said, if someone truly believes he will not live however he wants to live but instead in the way which the LORD wants him to live.

Why can you not understand that?

For what reason do you live the way which the LORD wants you to live?

A person will NOT even get saved unless the person makes his faith alive with obedience such as repentance of sins.

You have got to be kidding if you want to keep teaching that ALL who believe are AUTOMATICALLY saved, just for believing! According to your false teachings, a person merely has to believe,---what if that person NEVER obeys anything after that?! According to many who believe faith alone saves, they will say that person was never saved then...WHAT?!!!! You just said faith alone saves!

I tell you, so many say they believe but just do not understand why they just do not feel any different, but faith alone people say to increase your faith. What?! No! Being saved is NOT about talking yourself into being saved, it is about making your heart right for Jesus to live there.

God is not going to give His Spirit to just anyone because they really, really believe.

God gives His Spirit to those who believe and obey.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You are a self taught believer who has not studied the written Word with the help of the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit, who is given to those who OBEY.

Please answer the following question put forth by the Apostle Paul:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
(Gal.3;1-3).​
 

God's Truth

New member
I can't get past that in yellow. I don't believe any true believer loves sin. Nope, simply not true. We are "dead to sin"...no love there.

Romans 6:20-22 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death. But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.​

You have got to be narrow minded and inexperienced. The reason why sin is so hard to stop doing is BECAUSE the sinner loves the way the sin makes them feel.
 

God's Truth

New member
Please answer the following question put forth by the Apostle Paul:

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?"
(Gal.3;1-3).​

Paul was rebuking the Galatians for observing the Jewish special days and for wanting to get circumcised!!!

They do not have to do those CLEANING WORKS anymore because Jesus cleans us.

You have got to be out of your mind to believe that Paul was rebuking the Galatians for obeying Jesus too much!
 

Right Divider

Body part
You have got to be narrow minded and inexperienced. The reason why sin is so hard to stop doing is BECAUSE the sinner loves the way the sin makes them feel.
It is only the SELF-RIGHTEOUS, like you, that believe that they have achieved perfect obedience. You ARE the Pharisee in Luke 18!
 
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