ECT FAITH ALONE: DID JESUS TEACH IT?

Danoh

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An example of the importance of the doctrine of justification in church history is the historical debate between Pelagius (360-420), a British monk, and Augustine (354-430), the Bishop of Hippo. Pelagius taught that salvation was achieved through obedience to God's divine commands. In opposition to this, Augustine maintained the Scriptural truth that sinners are unable to save themselves by their own works and are reliant solely upon the grace of God for salvation. According to Augustine, since works are unable to save, grace alone must save, and that grace is apprehended only through faith.

Augustine wrote:
"You may proclaim that ancient just men possessed ever such great virtue, yet nothing saved them except faith in the Mediator, who shed His blood for the remission of sins."
[Src: Ad Bonifactum Book 1, Chapter 21, cited in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, vol. 1, trans. Fred Kramer (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971), p. 506.]

Thus, Augustine championed the New Testament church's doctrine of justification by grace through faith apart from works.

For this reason, many have suggested that Augustine laid the necessary groundwork for the debates that would later grip the church in the sixteenth century. It is no coincidence that Martin Luther was originally an Augustinian monk (a monastic order dedicated to upholding the teachings of Augustine). Yet in the early 1500s, Luther began to recognize that the church had greatly deviated not only from Augustine's doctrine of justification but also from the Scriptural doctrine of justification by making works a meritorious cause of salvation.

While the Reformation initially began as a protest (hence, Protestantism) against the selling of indulgences (documents promising forgiveness of the temporal punishments due to venial sin) the Protestant reformers (Luther, Calvin, and others) eventually came to challenge the entire Romanist doctrine of salvation by faith and works, constitutive traditionalism, etc. The Reformers saw these as a revival of the Judaizing tendencies opposed by the apostles and the works-righteousness opposed by Augustine and many other ancient church fathers.

Though Rome taught the necessity of Christ, it denied that Our Lord's death was sufficient, without human cooperation, to save sinners. The Reformation solas, among which sola fide is central, therefore speak not only to the necessity of Christ, grace, faith, and Scripture, but to the sufficiency of the same.

Sadly, one of the greatest challenges facing the church today is its re-evangelization. While many evangelicals may understand the doctrine of sola fide—that we must place our faith in Christ to be saved—it seems many have abandoned the Scriptural concept of sola gratia (grace alone). The synergistic conception of sola fide—faith arises out of an inherent capacity of the natural man—therefore must, by definition, draw on nature to cooperate with God's grace as the human fulfillment of a condition.

Why do many sincere Christians believe this? I speculate that it is because by nature some want to maintain an island of righteousness—a last bastion of pride in thinking that they can still contribute something, be it ever so small—to their own salvation. It would involve great humility on everyone's part to admit this to be so. If churches took more efforts to search the Scriptures and reform their doctrine on this single point, I am convinced that a great deal of blessing would be restored and God would remove much of the current worldliness in our midst.

AMR

At the risk of offence, AMR - Augustine was a heretic through...and through...it was his delving into the mysticism of the Greeks that resulted in the allegory method (literal passages of Scriopture taken figuratio) that the later resulting Scholarship known as Reformed Theology (Middle Ages) is based on - Scholastic Mysticism.

https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/23095-the-mysticism-of-saint-augustine-rereading-the-confessions/
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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At the risk of offence, AMR - Augustine was a heretic through...and through...it was his delving into the mysticism of the Greeks that resulted in the allegory method (literal passages of Scriopture taken figuratio) that the later resulting Scholarship known as Reformed Theology (Middle Ages) is based on - Scholastic Mysticism.

https://ndpr.nd.edu/news/23095-the-mysticism-of-saint-augustine-rereading-the-confessions/

Kenney argues that while the Christian contemplative mysticism created by Augustine is in many ways founded on Platonic thought, Platonism ultimately fails Augustine in that it cannot retain the truths that it anticipates. Hence, Augustine recast these failures in the realm of theology. Augustine had nothing to do with the quadriga, as this began with Clement, Origen, and onward into the Middle Ages. Yes, even Augustine and Aquinas, who favored restricting theology to the literal sense, nevertheless often speculated wildly via the quadriga.

What is offensive is the shallowness underlying attempts at presenting oneself as learned and sophisticated. It is usually evidenced by those that make sweeping statements ("heretic through and through") having no factual basis. Please try to refrain from interacting directly with me if you are going to put on airs like this.

AMR
 
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Ask Mr. Religion

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Catholics don't worship idols. :idunno:

The rest of your posting was basically just discussing various verses which agree with me, i.e., that it was perfectly permissible to create and make images...albeit not for idolatrous purposes.

And I'll say this:

If you object to Cruciform's OP because it contained an image of Jesus, then I'll point out that the Incarnation happened. Just saying. God became visible (albeit, of course, not qua God).

Scripture records some authorized imagery. Maybe Rome has a special memo from God? :AMR:

If we reduce the question to allegedly pictures of Our Lord,

1) It is, necessarily, a false representation, since He provided us no portrait. Nor the Apostles any description.

2) If the picture is intended to inspire devotion unto its "true representation," then it is a manifest idolatry of the kind, being a human invention.

3) If the picture is not intended to inspire devotion, it is a vain imagination. It presents Our Lord in such a way as not to inspire adoration.

4) If the picture is intended to picture only the human nature of Jesus, then it partakes of the Nestorian heresy that divides the hypostatic union, seeking to separate what is forever and unchangeably united.

2 Cor. 5:16 is important. "Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer."

Regarding Christ solely according to the flesh is an essentially humanistic apprehension of Christ. But He was not so, and is not so. Our Lord is not to be regarded in any kind of divided sense, but as the theanthropos, the God-man; and any reduction or division of our apprehension of Him is a step backward. This is the sense in which His glory is robbed.

If we consider for just a moment the path the original disciples took, in their appreciation of the Jesus they knew personally, so their private mental impressions and remembrances of Him—assuming they indulged such after His Ascension—would not partake of the lie of a false image. These witnesses of his divine majesty (2 Pet. 1:16) invite us with them in the pages of the Gospels. As they move from viewing Jesus as a man, then a great and admirable man, then as the greatest man ever, and finally as God Incarnate, we are brought along by those same degrees into the right perception of Jesus. So that, henceforth with Paul we say, "Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer."

The Word made flesh has given us his Word in which we are to understand the Incarnation. Images and pictures, never adequate to represent divinity, are no more fitting now than they ever were. Jesus Christ, the Living Word, is the "image (ikon) of the invisible God," Col. 1:15. His self-revelation cannot be improved upon, and any attempt at an unauthorized depiction must fall short of the glory of God, who is rightfully jealous of His glory, hence the second commandment.

If a visual is absolutely required, one cannot improve upon the bread and the wine. ;)

Like I said, Romanists hate the second commandment.

AMR
 
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Danoh

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Kenney argues that while the Christian contemplative mysticism created by Augustine is in many ways founded on Platonic thought, Platonism ultimately fails Augustine in that it cannot retain the truths that it anticipates. Hence, Augustine recast these failures in the realm of theology. Augustine had nothing to do with the quadriga, as this began with Clement, Origen, and onward into the Middle Ages. Yes, even Augustine and Aquinas, who favored restricting theology to the literal sense, nevertheless often speculated wildly via the quadriga.

What is offensive is the shallowness underlying attempts at presenting oneself as learned and sophisticated. It is usually evidenced by those that make sweeping statements ("heretic through and through") having no factual basis. Please try to refrain from interacting directly with me if you are going to put on airs like this.

AMR

I did say at the risk of offence. But you stuffed shirts are ever alike.

I've been studying Philosophy one form of philosophy or another most my life. I just don't overrely on it.

I posted that link because its take was from a secular view. To paraphrase Tertullian's thought on basically the same issue regardless of era, when such praise a Believer, and or visa versa something is amiss.

I hold no ill will towards you. Unfortunately , you are set in the traditions of men.

http://www.augnet.org/default.asp?ipageid=103
 

Totton Linnet

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Go thy way thy faith hath saved thee

If thou canst ONLY believe, all things are possible

....that is what YOU cain't do "only believe" all your dressings up and candles and statues and beads ands sacraments and rituals and heapings up of prayers and rituals and bells and incense and on and on and on

These are things to excite the senses, the essence of idolatry

We read God's word and believe it
 

Danoh

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Go thy way thy faith hath saved thee

If thou canst ONLY believe, all things are possible

....that is what YOU cain't do "only believe" all your dressings up and candles and statues and beads ands sacraments and rituals and heapings up of prayers and rituals and bells and incense and on and on and on

These are things to excite the senses, the essence of idolatry

We read God's word and believe it

Par for the course in "the mystical experience" - the so called "Divine" via the senses...
 

Danoh

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Likewise is the very basis of every aspect of the entire "Charismatic" Movement - the supposed "Divine" via the senses...
 

TulipBee

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TulipBee explained:
Catholicism ~ listen to the teachings of Christ's one historic Church

Protestantism ~ listen to TulipBee's preferred interpretations (i.e., opinions) of the Bible​


In any case, you're off-topic.



Gaudium de veritate,

Cruciform
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You don't listen to Jesus, alone

My dear pope, I will kiss your feet and acknowledge you as supreme bishop if you will worship my Christ and grant that through His death and resurrection, not through keeping your traditions, we have forgiveness of sins and life eternal. If you will yield on this point, I shall not take away your crown and power; if not, I shall constantly cry out that you are the Antichrist, and I shall testify that your whole cult and religion are only a denial of God, but also the height of blasphemy against God and idolatry. (What Luther Says, II: 1069)
 

Cross Reference

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So far as the OP goes, Jesus came to preach the Kingdom Gospel to
the lost sheep of Israel only. Jesus wasn't preaching "faith alone." The
faith alone concept didn't come into affect until after the ascended Christ
met Saul/Paul on the road to Damascus. Subsequently, Paul was sent to
the Gentiles with the message Christ gave to him. That being, the Grace
Gospel. Whereas, Peter and the rest continued Christ's Kingdom Gospel,
to the House of Israel.

The one who lives by faith in God is in the grace, the divine favor of God. Sorry, no presumption allowed. Our conception of God will determine our dedication to Him.

That isn't arguable.
 

Nick M

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To point out the unbiblical nature of sola fide, and to prompt discussion between Catholics and Protestants.

You need to go back to elementary school. "Faith alone" is Biblical. You asked about the earthly ministry of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those are two different things.
 

Cross Reference

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The "Lost sheep" were being preached to by the Lord Jesus Christ.
(God in the flesh) He was preaching the "Kingdom Gospel" to them.
Which included not only faith but works as well. Whereas, Paul was
sent to the Gentiles preaching the Grace Gospel. (Faith alone without
works) Your church doesn't understand the difference because, they
not only preach a "works based" belief system, but they do not know
how to "Rightly Divide" the written word of God. (The Bible)

I would suggest to you, to purchase a "non-Catholic" Bible. Either,
a King James version or a New King James Version (My favorite)
and begin to read/study Romans through Philemon. (Paul's writings)

Your church isn't preaching today's Gospel. In order for you to enter
eternal life, you MUST have a clear understanding of what the "True
Gospel" is saying.

(Ho-hum) . . I am so-o-o sorry I made a reply to your entry.
 

Traditio

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An example of the importance of the doctrine of justification in church history is the historical debate between Pelagius (360-420), a British monk, and Augustine (354-430), the Bishop of Hippo. Pelagius taught that salvation was achieved through obedience to God's divine commands. In opposition to this, Augustine maintained the Scriptural truth that sinners are unable to save themselves by their own works and are reliant solely upon the grace of God for salvation. According to Augustine, since works are unable to save, grace alone must save, and that grace is apprehended only through faith.

Augustine wrote:
"You may proclaim that ancient just men possessed ever such great virtue, yet nothing saved them except faith in the Mediator, who shed His blood for the remission of sins."
[Src: Ad Bonifactum Book 1, Chapter 21, cited in Martin Chemnitz, Examination of the Council of Trent, vol. 1, trans. Fred Kramer (St. Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 1971), p. 506.]

With the exception of the bolded (which is your own interpretation of St. Augustine's words, not St. Augustine's words themselves), there's nothing here with which I disagree.

Pelagianism is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church: we cannot save ourselves through our own good works; God alone has the power to save us by his grace. The doctrine of "grace alone," understood properly, is essentially Catholic doctrine. As I've said before, we actually take "grace alone" much more seriously than protestants do: thus the necessity of the sacraments, which are divine, not human, works.

The old testament patriarchs were not saved through works of the Law: the Law did not confer grace. St. Paul explicitly says this in Hebrews: the ritual sacrifices of the Law did not take away sins; they only dimly foreshadowed the paschal sacrifice at Calvary.

They were saved, not through works of the law, but because (and I use the word "because" in a very broad, loose sense) of their faith in the Christ who was to come. They were saved, not because of the sacrifices of the Law, but because of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, in whom the Old Testament patriarchs, at least in some vague and obscure manner, had faith.

The words of Simeon come to mind:

"And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him. [26] And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. [27] And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, [28] He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: [29] Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; [30] Because my eyes have seen thy salvation" (Luke 2:25-30).

There is, however, no need to import a specifically protestant doctrine of "faith alone," in the precise sense in which protestants understand this, into the words of St. Augustine, as though the patriarchs, had they lived after the coming of Christ, could have been saved apart from and in obstinate refusal of the Church and her sacraments.
 

Cross Reference

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With the exception of the bolded (which is your own interpretation of St. Augustine's words, not St. Augustine's words themselves), there's nothing here with which I disagree.

Pelagianism is contrary to the teachings of the Catholic Church: we cannot save ourselves through our own good works; God alone has the power to save us by his grace. The doctrine of "grace alone," understood properly, is essentially Catholic doctrine. As I've said before, we actually take "grace alone" much more seriously than protestants do: thus the necessity of the sacraments, which are divine, not human, works.

The old testament patriarchs were not saved through works of the Law: the Law did not confer grace. St. Paul explicitly says this in Hebrews: the ritual sacrifices of the Law did not take away sins; they only dimly foreshadowed the paschal sacrifice at Calvary.

They were saved, not through works of the law, but because (and I use the word "because" in a very broad, loose sense) of their faith in the Christ who was to come. They were saved, not because of the sacrifices of the Law, but because of the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross, in whom the Old Testament patriarchs, at least in some vague and obscure manner, had faith.

The words of Simeon come to mind:

"And behold there was a man in Jerusalem named Simeon, and this man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Ghost was in him. [26] And he had received an answer from the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Christ of the Lord. [27] And he came by the Spirit into the temple. And when his parents brought in the child Jesus, to do for him according to the custom of the law, [28] He also took him into his arms, and blessed God, and said: [29] Now thou dost dismiss thy servant, O Lord, according to thy word in peace; [30] Because my eyes have seen thy salvation" (Luke 2:25-30).

There is, however, no need to import a specifically protestant doctrine of "faith alone," in the precise sense in which protestants understand this, into the words of St. Augustine, as though the patriarchs, had they lived after the coming of Christ, could have been saved apart from and in obstinate refusal of the Church and her sacraments.


[In Yellow] Correction. Assuming one's faith in the mix, the law did convey grace but only to the extent God, by the limitation of His Holiness, could convey it. Understanding this should also answer why the OT saints didn't immediately enter heaven upon their death.
 

Grosnick Marowbe

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Hall of Fame
To point out the unbiblical nature of sola fide, and to prompt discussion between Catholics and Protestants.

The "Lost sheep" were being preached to by the Lord Jesus Christ.
(God in the flesh) He was preaching the "Kingdom Gospel" to them.
Which included not only faith but works as well. Whereas, Paul was
sent to the Gentiles preaching the Grace Gospel. (Faith alone without
works) Your church doesn't understand the difference because, they
not only preach a "works based" belief system, but they do not know
how to "Rightly Divide" the written word of God. (The Bible)

I would suggest to you, to purchase a "non-Catholic" Bible. Either,
a King James version or a New King James Version (My favorite)
and begin to read/study Romans through Philemon. (Paul's writings)

Your church isn't preaching today's Gospel. In order for you to enter
eternal life, you MUST have a clear understanding of what the "True
Gospel" is saying.
 
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