Eliminating Dispensationalism

[Jacob]

So you don't see how you are contradicting yourself? You're claiming you're a convert to the religion of Judism, which requires you keep the law. Yet, the early church understood the law was a yoke that the fathers were not able to bear.

So, those same Jewish believers you speak of did not continue to follow the law realizing it was contrary to the righteousness of God...which is through faith.

Acts 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.​

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Shalom.

It is not wrong to keep God's law. It may have been a burden, or appeared as a burden, both with different understandings of what this might mean, but it has not been abolished. If you are a convert from among the Gentiles, start with the essentials. Remember, the Noahide laws are for all nations.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Nihilo]

Spoiler

So you don't see how you are contradicting yourself? You're claiming you're a convert to the religion of Judism, which requires you keep the law. Yet, the early church understood the law was a yoke that the fathers were not able to bear.

So, those same Jewish believers you speak of did not continue to follow the law realizing it was contrary to the righteousness of God...which is through faith.

Acts 15:5
But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Acts 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.​

Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.

Note also Acts 15:24 (KJV) : the Apostles never preached the law, not even before this. " . . . we gave no such commandment . . . "

 

[glorydaz]

Shalom.

It is not wrong to keep God's law. It may have been a burden, or appeared as a burden, both with different understandings of what this might mean, but it has not been abolished. If you are a convert from among the Gentiles, start with the essentials. Remember, the Noahide laws are for all nations.

Shalom.

Jacob

The law was not abolished, it was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ. It's still there for condemning man of his guilt. It's still there for leading men to Christ. That's all it's there for....unbelievers. The law is for unbelievers.

For those who believe, Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Your claim to keep something that Christ has fulfilled is a lack of faith on your part.

The law for all people is what God has written in the conscience of man, and that conscience is purified by faith when we believe. So, by your insistence on keeping the law, you are putting yourself under bondage and denying the work of the cross.

So, if you're a Jew, you do deny the work of Christ, and your attempts at law keeping prove that to the world.

 

[Jacob]

The law was not abolished, it was fulfilled by the Lord Jesus Christ. It's still there for condemning man of his guilt. It's still there for leading men to Christ. That's all it's there for....unbelievers. The law is for unbelievers.

For those who believe, Jesus Christ is the end of the law for righteousness. Your claim to keep something that Christ has fulfilled is a lack of faith on your part.

The law for all people is what God has written in the conscience of man, and that conscience is purified by faith when we believe. So, by your insistence on keeping the law, you are putting yourself under bondage and denying the work of the cross.

So, if you're a Jew, you do deny the work of Christ, and your attempts at law keeping prove that to the world.

Shalom.

A couple of things.

Sin is transgression of the law. Those who sin are commanded to stop sinning. You should obey God's commands, His Law, as much as a believer as you should have as an unbeliever. The Law, the Torah, was given to us, the nation of Israel. If you join with Israel, observe all of the Law. If you have come to Christ from among the Gentiles, there are the essentials for you to observe. You do not have to become circumcised (men, and sons) and observe all of the Law of Moses, or the entire Law, the entire Law of Moses, but you can. Essentials are just that, essentials. You should not be burdened by this. Observe God's commands as He reveals them to you, and as you can, without compromising the gospel. It is wrong to believe that God's Law is (only) for unbelievers. Remember, the new covenant is for the house of Israel and the house of Judah. It is God's law written on minds and hearts in Yeshua HaMashiach, Yeshua Messiah, Jesus the Christ.

Please read the following.

Matthew 5:17-20
​

See also,

Romans 8:1-4
​

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[tetelestai]

The spiritual Jews returned to Israel from Babylon,
the carnal Jews remained in Babylon.
YHVH is calling His spiritual Jews to Israel,

LOL....and people wonder why I make fun of Dispensationalism.

 

[glorydaz]

Sin is transgression of the law.

Yes, sin is transgression of the law....which is exactly why the law has been fulfilled in us by the Lord Jesus Christ, hence believers have been delivered from the law.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.​

Romans 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


You are either under the law or under grace. You're simply trying to straddle the fence that exists between the two. But, you refuse to listen. I'm pretty sure you're just wandering around in the wilderness looking for a place to pitch your tent. You'll only find that with faith in the Lord...not in your own efforts.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.​

 

[Jacob]

Yes, sin is transgression of the law....which is exactly why the law has been fulfilled in us by the Lord Jesus Christ, hence believers have been delivered from the law.

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.​

Romans 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


You are either under the law or under grace. You're simply trying to straddle the fence that exists between the two. But, you refuse to listen. I'm pretty sure you're just wandering around in the wilderness looking for a place to pitch your tent. You'll only find that with faith in the Lord...not in your own efforts.

Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.​

Shalom.

Is it possible that you do not understand? Two questions.

One. As a believer do you understand that what the Law could not do for you, God did for you, and that you are not under the condemnation of the Law?

Two. As a non-Jew you may understand this differently than I do as a Jew, but are Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-20 for you, in regard to your obedience? They are for the nation of Israel and all people, but people understand them differently. Your foundation with these verses may have been that the Law (and the Prophets) condemn everyone, the sinner, only (if you have had one)? I do not know if your statements account for these verses and words of Jesus. Namely, obedience to and teaching of God's commandments, and that neither the Law (the Torah) nor the Prophets, have been abolished. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[glorydaz]

Shalom.

Is it possible that you do not understand? Two questions.

One. As a believer do you understand that what the Law could not do for you, God did for you, and that you are not under the condemnation of the Law?

Two. As a non-Jew you may understand this differently than I do as a Jew, but are Jesus' words in Matthew 5:17-20 for you, in regard to your obedience? They are for the nation of Israel and all people, but people understand them differently. Your foundation with these verses may have been that the Law (and the Prophets) condemn everyone, the sinner, only (if you have had one)? I do not know if your statements account for these verses and words of Jesus. Namely, obedience to and teaching of God's commandments, and that neither the Law (the Torah) nor the Prophets, have been abolished. Jesus did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets.

Shalom.

Jacob

If you knew what the Law's purpose has always been, then you might understand what those verses in Matt. 5 were saying. When our Lord came in the flesh, he taught the law as it was always meant to be.... including what one thinks in their heart...what you think is judged, not just what you do outwardly. He did that so people would realize they are not keeping the law by obeying it's external rules and regulations (even though they may think they were keeping it). That entire text is to prove man guilty before God. Those who think they keep the law, as described by the Lord in that text are lying to themselves....for righteousness does not come from law keeping. Romans 4:13

The purpose of the law to show men their guilt. It has no power to make men righteous, to justify men before God, or to give life. It is meant to find us guilty and lead us to Christ. Therefore it's purpose will be needed as long as there are unbelievers (those outside the faith).

The law is not made for a righteous man (those with the righteousness of Christ are the only righteous). You don't seem to believe what this verse makes so clear.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,​

 

[Jacob]

If you knew what the Law's purpose has always been, then you might understand what those verses in Matt. 5 were saying. When our Lord came in the flesh, he taught the law as it was always meant to be.... including what one thinks in their heart...what you think is judged, not just what you do outwardly. He did that so people would realize they are not keeping the law by obeying it's external rules and regulations (even though they may think they were keeping it). That entire text is to prove man guilty before God. Those who think they keep the law, as described by the Lord in that text are lying to themselves....for righteousness does not come from law keeping. Romans 4:13

The purpose of the law to show men their guilt. It has no power to make men righteous, to justify men before God, or to give life. It is meant to find us guilty and lead us to Christ. Therefore it's purpose will be needed as long as there are unbelievers (those outside the faith).

The law is not made for a righteous man (those with the righteousness of Christ are the only righteous). You don't seem to believe what this verse makes so clear.

1 Timothy 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,​

Shalom.

You have an interesting perspective. What you have not yet seen is that it is possible to obey God's Law, to observe His commandments. I only see you reasoning against this. Have you ever obeyed a command of God as a believer? Do you believe that God would judge you for so doing. I hope that this exhortation finds you well.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[musterion]

I'm not Catholic either. Best regards.

I believe you called Rome THE Church, just today.

 

[john w]

LOL....and people wonder why I make fun of Dispensationalism.

This is why 90%+ of "Christianity" laughs at your invented, rejected, made up AD 70-ism/Preterism:

“We now live in a new heaven and a new earth. .... we now live in the new heavens and new earth...Yes, we are living in the millennial reign right now… we now live in the greatest time period since the creation of planet earth… The kingdom where there is no more death, tears, and sadness exists right now."-wimpy Craigie, reciting it in his broken down car, on the way to the unemployment office, to pick up his check/food stamps

"The Apostle Paul was the biggest anti-Semite there ever was:"-gay boy Craigie Tet.


Real cute, with your "LOL," little arms Craigie. Real cute.

 

[glorydaz]

Shalom.

You have an interesting perspective. What you have not yet seen is that it is possible to obey God's Law, to observe His commandments. I only see you reasoning against this. Have you ever obeyed a command of God as a believer? Do you believe that God would judge you for so doing. I hope that this exhortation finds you well.

Shalom.

Jacob

I don't follow any commandments or any rules and regulations. Members of the body of Christ have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Thus we are led by the Spirit throughout our daily lives. We walk and live according to the Spirit within. The obedience of faith is just the opposite of the obedience to commandments, and it comes through a change we undergo when the love of God is shed abroad on our heart by the Holy Spirit. The desire to please God in all we do needs not be commanded or accomplished through our own efforts, because it's accomplished by our being God's workmanship.

 

[Nihilo]

...it is possible to obey God's Law

But that Acts 15:24 (KJV) says the Apostles and Church elders never taught God's law, and given Mt 7:12 Mt 22:39 Mt 22:40 Jn 13:34 Ro 13:8 Ro 13:10 Ga 5:14 Jas 2:8 (and more), why would you want to study Torah, instead of just figure out how to love? Or do you think studying and trying to observe Torah is love? :idunno:

 

[Nihilo]

I believe you called Rome THE Church, just today.

Yep.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I am a Jew, of Israel, Jewish, as a proselyte and a convert. I used to be a Christian Dispensationalist. There are some things or views of premillenial dispensationalism that I did not find in scripture, that are still a part of my mind. They need to be cleared up. I was pretribulation rapture, by what I was taught. I do not accept a seven year tribulation preceding a millennium.

How do you replace false thoughts or ideas with that which is true? Is there a process for this? Can you exchange one thought for another?

Ignoring the topic of your Messianic Christianity for the time being, you could avail yourself of deeper study of Scripture to divest any lingering dispensationalist notions. Afterwards I am confident that God's dealing with mankind covenantally will emerge. Here are three progressive steps to start you on your path to learning more.

1. Dispensationalism vs. Covenantalism

2. From there, start with a gentle introduction:
http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Bible/cov_theo.html

3. Followed by a advanced level treatment:
http://rscottclark.org/2012/09/theses-on-covenant-theology/

Good luck in your studies.

AMR

 

[Jacob]

I don't follow any commandments or any rules and regulations. Members of the body of Christ have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them. Thus we are led by the Spirit throughout our daily lives. We walk and live according to the Spirit within. The obedience of faith is just the opposite of the obedience to commandments, and it comes through a change we undergo when the love of God is shed abroad on our heart by the Holy Spirit. The desire to please God in all we do needs not be commanded or accomplished through our own efforts, because it's accomplished by our being God's workmanship.

Shalom.

Are you saying that of the 1050 Commandments in Matthew through Revelation you obey or observe none of them?

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[musterion]

Yep.

So you are Catholic.

 

[glorydaz]

Shalom.

Are you saying that of the 1050 Commandments in Matthew through Revelation you obey or observe none of them?

Shalom.

Jacob

None that I know of. If I do, it's purely chance.


I am here...

Colossians 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.​

And He was obedient unto death so that I could have life IN HIM.

 

[Jacob]

But that Acts 15:24 (KJV) says the Apostles and Church elders never taught God's law, and given Mt 7:12 Mt 22:39 Mt 22:40 Jn 13:34 Ro 13:8 Ro 13:10 Ga 5:14 Jas 2:8 (and more), why would you want to study Torah, instead of just figure out how to love? Or do you think studying and trying to observe Torah is love? :idunno:

Shalom.

God's commandments are about love of God and your neighbor. These verses do not speak against these things. They are from Torah. There are 613 Commandments in the Torah. They are all about love of God and your neighbor.

Shalom.

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

Ignoring the topic of your Messianic Christianity for the time being, you could avail yourself of deeper study of Scripture to divest any lingering dispensationalist notions. Afterwards I am confident that God's dealing with mankind covenantally will emerge. Here are three progressive steps to start you on your path to learning more.

1. Dispensationalism vs. Covenantalism

2. From there, start with a gentle introduction:
http://gospelpedlar.com/articles/Bible/cov_theo.html

3. Followed by a advanced level treatment:
http://rscottclark.org/2012/09/theses-on-covenant-theology/

Good luck in your studies.

AMR

Shalom.

I think that you are confused about me. I am a Jew, not a Christian. I am not Messianic, I am Orthodox. I do not mix meat and dairy. I am an ex-Christian Dispensationalist. I used to be a Gentile. I am a Jew, Jewish, of Israel, as a proselyte and a convert. I do not follow Covenentalism and I am not interested.

Shalom.

Jacob