Drug Dealing and the Bible

[Nazaroo]

I think he is trying to prove that the incense burning in the Temple was sorcery, of course we may never know since he does not respond directly to topic related post and only makes quick snide faulty presumptions about the posters instead, ad hominem.

If he had a point he could have made it by now, or at the least had a dialogue about the topic with those whom came willing.

keep shinin

jerm

More disinformation from a couple of spammers.

My message was clear from the first post:

Drug dealers are going to be thrown in the Lake of Fire, unless they quickly repent.

If any man is still alive, he still has a chance to repent. However, don't count on staying alive and repenting later. When God comes for your soul, all your lying and greed will crumble away into the sand it was built on.

You'll be by yourself, facing the most powerful Being in the Universe. And He won't be pleased, because he gave you a whole lifetime to repent, and listen to Him, and start doing what He asked of you.

All those people you exploited, shamed, injured, enslaved and killed will also be facing you, with Jesus backing them up.

I was once walking downtown, as was my habit, wearing a jean-jacket I had written on the back of with a magic-marker: "The Dead Rise."

As I passed by a local prostitute, she saw the back of my jacket and began to beat me on the back, shouting "Why? Why are you showing me that?".

I wasn't hurt, but was quite surprised. I had been all along assuming my message was wonderful news, encouraging and joyful. But to this person it only meant dread and fear.

I had not understood what it meant that she had been a witness and participant in murders, and knew her blood-guilt. She was indeed going to hell, and enslaved in a system of exploitation in which victims exploit yet more victims, to serve crooks, the mafia, and ultimately Satan.

Rightly did Jesus say, "The hireling only comes to steal, and destroy, and kill."

To accept money is to be a hireling, and to work for the earthly powers, all criminal, is to be guilty of their crimes, aiding and abetting murder, torture, exploitation, abuse.

What gives these earthly powers and organizations the ability to enslave and exploit millions, even turn them on each other?

DRUGS.

Thats why God and Jesus condemn uttterly DRUGS, DRUG DEALS, DRUG BUYING AND SELLING, and DRUG DEALERS.

God warns that these monsters, even when confronted with their crimes, and immanent Judgement, WILL NOT REPENT. In that Day, the DAY OF THE LORD, it will be too late to repent. They will not be capable of repentance, as Jesus forsaw.

They will be as enslaved as their victims, and will find themselves trapped on the conveyer-belt to the Lake of Fire.

peace
Naaroo

 

[koban]

Naz, you're a silly little fool who has twisted scripture to meet your needs.

Congratulations.

 

[jeremysdemo]

I think he is trying to prove that the incense burning in the Temple was sorcery, of course we may never know since he does not respond directly to topic related post and only makes quick snide faulty presumptions about the posters instead, ad hominem.

If he had a point he could have made it by now, or at the least had a dialogue about the topic with those whom came willing.

keep shinin

jerm

More disinformation from a couple of spammers.

My message was clear from the first post:

Drug dealers are going to be thrown in the Lake of Fire, unless they quickly repent.

If any man is still alive, he still has a chance to repent. However, don't count on staying alive and repenting later. When God comes for your soul, all your lying and greed will crumble away into the sand it was built on.

You'll be by yourself, facing the most powerful Being in the Universe. And He won't be pleased, because he gave you a whole lifetime to repent, and listen to Him, and start doing what He asked of you.

All those people you exploited, shamed, injured, enslaved and killed will also be facing you, with Jesus backing them up.

I was once walking downtown, as was my habit, wearing a jean-jacket I had written on the back of with a magic-marker: "The Dead Rise."

As I passed by a local prostitute, she saw the back of my jacket and began to beat me on the back, shouting "Why? Why are you showing me that?".

I wasn't hurt, but was quite surprised. I had been all along assuming my message was wonderful news, encouraging and joyful. But to this person it only meant dread and fear.

I had not understood what it meant that she had been a witness and participant in murders, and knew her blood-guilt. She was indeed going to hell, and enslaved in a system of exploitation in which victims exploit yet more victims, to serve crooks, the mafia, and ultimately Satan.

Rightly did Jesus say, "The hireling only comes to steal, and destroy, and kill."

To accept money is to be a hireling, and to work for the earthly powers, all criminal, is to be guilty of their crimes, aiding and abetting murder, torture, exploitation, abuse.

What gives these earthly powers and organizations the ability to enslave and exploit millions, even turn them on each other?

DRUGS.

Thats why God and Jesus condemn uttterly DRUGS, DRUG DEALS, DRUG BUYING AND SELLING, and DRUG DEALERS.

God warns that these monsters, even when confronted with their crimes, and immanent Judgement, WILL NOT REPENT. In that Day, the DAY OF THE LORD, it will be too late to repent. They will not be capable of repentance, as Jesus forsaw.

They will be as enslaved as their victims, and will find themselves trapped on the conveyer-belt to the Lake of Fire.

peace
Naaroo

Just curious how all that fits into the incense that were burned in the Temple......

I mean so far we got Y'shua going into the temple turning over the tables of the change makers, and we know of the historic evidence of the incense (all the "herbs" that were burnt before there was a DEA to classify them as narcotics)....

I don't think anyone is arguing that drugs are not bad m-kay or that humanity does not need to repent of all their vile ways, just trying to put this into biblical perspective using the evidence we do have of temple practices.

Swinging the dead bloody chicken over everyone's heads to capture the sins of the crowd is making more sense now if drugs truly were involved in temple worship.....but there is still a huge gap here seems like a stretch....it would be nice to have the actual thread starter to be involved in this whole dialogue..... :yawn: instead of just going off on his sermon, preaching to the choir I'm afraid....


keep shinin

jerm

 

[jeremysdemo]

quit slacking on your pimpin and run your thread zoolander. :up:

people come here to converse with one another not read your introverted dissertations.... atrol:

keep shinin

jerm

 

[Aner]

Thats why God and Jesus condemn uttterly DRUGS, DRUG DEALS, DRUG BUYING AND SELLING, and DRUG DEALERS.

God warns that these monsters, even when confronted with their crimes, and immanent Judgement, WILL NOT REPENT. In that Day, the DAY OF THE LORD, it will be too late to repent. They will not be capable of repentance, as Jesus forsaw.

God does no such thing - God did not deal with our modern day urban issues. What God does is condemn those who add to His Word however.....

 

[Nazaroo]

Nazaroo: Statement:

Thats why God and Jesus condemn uttterly DRUGS, DRUG DEALS, DRUG BUYING AND SELLING, and DRUG DEALERS.
...
God warns that these monsters, even when confronted with their crimes, and immanent Judgement, WILL NOT REPENT. In that Day, the DAY OF THE LORD, it will be too late to repent. They will not be capable of repentance, as Jesus forsaw.

Aner: Response:

God does no such thing - God did not deal with our modern day urban issues. What God does is condemn those who add to His Word however.....

____________________________________________________

Nazaroo: Counterpoint I:

"God does no such thing:" - Aner


​

Quick Fact Check: Book of Revelation

'And the remainder of humankind, those who were not killed by these (world-scale) plagues,
did not repent of their works, in worshipping demons, and idols of gold and silver, ... that cannot see nor hear nor move:

And they did not repent of their murdering, nor of their drug dealing, nor of their fornicating, nor of their robbery.'

​

και ου μετενοησαν εκ των φονων αυτων ουτε εκ των φαρμακειων αυτων ουτε εκ της πορνειας αυτων ουτε εκ των κλεμματων αυτων
​

(Revelation 9:20-21)

​

Now it just so happens that the three LARGEST INDUSTRIES in the world today are, coincidentally,

(1) Murder: Gun dealing, weaponry and warfare (the Military Industrial Complex = 1.2 trillion dollars annually?)
(2) Drug Dealing: (International Drug Cartels supported by CIA etc. = 400 Billion USD $ in 1997. )
(3) Prostitution: (Porn is the next largest industry by economic measure = 500 Billion US $)
​

Which all amounts to systematic

(4) Robbery: and oppression, exploitation of the poor.
​

So I would say that by amazing coincidence, Jesus speaking through John the Seer in the Book of Revelation foresaw only too well what could not have even been imagined by ordinary men in 100 A.D.

Jesus was 'spot-on' in predicting both the largest industries and main source of political and ethical corruption facing humankind in the Last Days.

But just as importantly, Jesus here predicts the most important fact about these murderers and oppressors in the Last Days: They will not repent.

No surprises there.

________________________________________________________

Nazaroo: Counterpoint II:

"What God does is condemn those who add to His Word however....." -Aner
​

No, this is also inaccurate:

God condemns BOTH those who ADD and those who TAKE AWAY, or obscure the plain message of Revelation for these LAST DAYS:

'I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;
and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

(Revelation 22:18-19)
​

__________________________________________________\
References:

100 Billion to 500 Billion $USD for Illegal Drugs Alone:

According to the UN in 1998:
"With estimates of $100 billion to $110 billion for heroin, $110 billion to $130 billion for cocaine, $75 billion for cannabis and $60 billion for synthetic drugs, the probable global figure for the total illicit drug industry would be approximately $360 billion. Given the conservative bias in some of the estimates for individual substances, a turnover of around $400 billion per annum is considered realistic. This figure can be compared to estimates of more than $500 billion which are based solely on the average of minimum and maximum prices in the United States."
Source: United Nations Drug Control Program, "Economic and Social Consequences of Drug Abuse and Illicit Trafficking," Technical Series No. 6, 1998, p. 55

the Financial Action Task Force (FATF) [an inter-governmental body focusing on anti-money laundering activities and legislation] hired Peter Reuter, a well-known economist who has done extensive work on illegal drug markets, and produced an estimate. This job had the full cooperation of the UNDCP, which opened its data bank to the researcher. The resulting study is probably the most serious attempt to ascertain the size of the world illegal drug market and resulted in an estimated range between $45 and $280 billion."
________________________________________
Total world spending on military expenses in 2006 was $1.158 trillion US dollars. Nearly half of this total, 528.7 billion US dollars, was spent by the United States. The privatization of the production and invention of military technology also leads to a complicated relationship with significant research and development of many technologies. -Wikepedia
__________________________________________

One in 10 British men has visited a prostitute. Yes, that's 10 per cent. And who is servicing them? Around 80,000 sex workers, a figure that is said to include 4,000 women and children trafficked into the country to work as sex slaves. Our laws on paid sex, Home Secretary Jacqui Smith declared, are long overdue for a rethink.

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-s...th-about-prostitution-in-britain-1035038.html

_____________________________________________

Important key findings:

• At least 100,000 children are used in prostitution every year in the United States.
• The average age of entry into prostitution is 13 years old.
• Prostituted girls are often controlled by a pimp who recruits them into sex trafficking by posing as a boyfriend, caretaker, and protector.
• The 3 primary manifestations of child sex trafficking in America is: pimp-controlled prostitution, familial prostitution, and/or survival sex.
• The business of sex trafficking of America's youth is flourishing as demand for commercial sex with young, innocent girls and boys continues to occur with little and low punishment.
• Child sexual slavery is fueled by a cultural of tolerance which glorifies pimping and normalizes the sexual exploitation of children.

Domestic minor sex trafficking is a serious problem in the U.S., and one that will not be solved overnight.
http://humantrafficking.change.org/blog?category_id=sex_trafficking_and_prostitution&page=5

_____________________________________--

Larry Flint (Hustler Magazine) alone is seeking 5 Billion from YOUR GOVERNMENT:

US porn industry seeks multi-billion dollar bailout

Porn baron Larry Flynt is seeking a $5 billion bailout from Washington to rejuvenate the industry, which he says is suffering because of the economic downturn.
http://www.sodahead.com/business/us...lti-billion-dollar-bailout/blog-36029/?page=2

peace
Nazaroo

 

[Aner]

Naz

I appreciate your effort and sincerity - however, that translation is false.

I did not deny God's full condemnation - I focused on one aspect - the aspect that I am concerned that you are participating in.

Your neat model though is kind of cool - but that does not make it accurate.

Best,

Aner

 

[Nazaroo]

Naz

I appreciate your effort and sincerity - however, that translation is false.

I did not deny God's full condemnation - I focused on one aspect - the aspect that I am concerned that you are participating in.

Your neat model though is kind of cool - but that does not make it accurate.

Best,

Aner

You have provided absolutely NO linguistic, grammatical, lexical, historical, or religious information which would contradict or negate the translation of pharmakeia (φαρμακεια) as DRUG DEALING.

I on the other hand, can provide plenty of historical and patristic evidence that as far back as the 2nd century A.D., Christian writers understood it to mean DRUGS, starting with the Didache and the Apostolic Constitutions.

So just where is your argument against the translation?

I'm hardly alone in acknowledging that (φαρμακεια) is DRUG DEALING.


http://www.drugabuseinscripture.co.uk/index.html
http://www.drugabuseinscripture.co.uk/html/early_church.html

http://www.presentruth.com/2009/06/sorcery-pharmaceuticals-and-babylon-the-great/
http://moniquemonicat.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/so-is-this-a-conspiracy/

 

[Nazaroo]

Opponents who Support Recreational Drug Use

It should be carefully noted (with alarm) that even groups PROMOTING the use of Marijuana and drugs also acknowledge that (φαρμακεια) is DRUG DEALING, but they try to make a distinction between "medicine" and "drug abuse" by claiming that the kind of (φαρμακεια)/ DRUG DEALING condemned in the Bible is "always associated with demon worship and magic rituals".

However, THERE IS NO EVIDENCE of such a distinction in the New Testament at all, and they have already conceded that (φαρμακεια) is in fact DRUG DEALING.

http://www.lucashempco.com/cms/node/24


It is interesting that they attempt to cite Origen (circa 200 A.D.) in support of their view:

Origen said it well,
"no one would act rationally in avoiding medicine because of it's heresies".

The Bible does not tell us to refuse medicine, it tells us to refuse sorcery. We are free to use medicines in the purposes that God designed them to be used, and are to acknowledge Him concerning them.

This is essentially worthless hairsplitting. The idea is that you can smoke all the dope you like, as long as you are not also worshipping blastic Buddhas or satanic idols. "God actually loves dope smoking."





The problem of course is that Paul and other NT writers condemned Drug Dealing specifically, and were only secondarily concerned with idolatry and magic. The fact remains that the Greek word (φαρμακεια) is DRUG DEALING, not sorcery.Whether or not there is a legitimate 'use' for medicine, or whether or not the Bible approves/disapproves of "Legal Medicine, used properly", the fact remains that(φαρμακεια) is DRUG DEALING, and this is the primary meaning of the Greek word to this very day in Greece.



Fawning politicians and compromised theologians can praise pharmaceutical companies and doctors all they like, but the fact remains that pharmaceuticals are drugs, and the Bible really does mention DRUG DEALING 5 times.

_________________________________________________
Fuller Origen quotation here:

"...For since the science of medicine is useful and necessary to the human race, and many are the points of dispute in it respecting the manner of curing bodies, there are found, for this reason, numerous heresies[divisions of opinion] confessedly prevailing in the science of medicine among the Greeks, and also, I suppose, among those barbarous nations who profess to employ medicine....And yet no one would act rationally in avoiding medicine because of its heresies..."

-Origen
Against Celsus, Book III, Chapter XII-

We perhaps should mention that Origen (in spite of his 'great' reputation as a scholar) was also a man who was so confused that he cut off his own testicles.
He probably should have got a second medical opinion himself on that blunder.

...and his work was responsible for the mutilation of the LXX (Greek O.T.) to make it conform to the apostate (post Christian) Jewish (Massoretic c. 200 A.D.) Text of the Old Testament.

Perhaps Origen is not the first person we want to consult when establishing subtle nuances of meaning for the NT text, or the value of medical procedures either!

peace
Nazaroo

 

[Nazaroo]

"By their fruits ye shall know them..."

The war on cannabis, like all sin, misses the mark. "Just say no" is not the command of God. The claimed benefits of "just say no" are secondary and paradoxical to reality. There is an image of saving lives, but in reality, asceticism pays no mind to the lives it destroys. Paul writes that, although "touch not, taste not, handle not" all have an appearance of wisdom, they in the end result in fleshly indulgence (Col 2). We can see this play out in the war on cannabis.

http://www.lucashempco.com/cms/node/24

Here we see those who want to "legalize" marijuana actually turn the meaning of sin upside-down.

They move from claiming that smoking drugs is NOT a sin, easily forward to the next idea: - that opposing legalisation of marijuana IS a sin!

More astute readers will notice that the concept of 'sin' hasn't gone anywhere: its just been shuffled around for the convenience of pot smokers.

Of course you have to smoke sufficient quantities of marijuana to see the logic of this, so don't be surprised if you just don't "get it"...

 

[edixon]

I'm hardly alone in acknowledging that (φαρμακεια) is DRUG DEALING.

Hardly! This has been argued for thousands of years.

I understand your points, and do not care to argue. I have not studied this whole thread and want to ask, how you feel about Jesus turning water to wine.
I suppose you believe He did, but was it just juice or was it fermented?


Nameste,
Ed

 

[jeremysdemo]

He already answered that. "what he thinks of the water into wine story".

He presents Y'shua as a militant leader which is an interesting angle but not that uncommon for "Messiahs" of His day.

He refuses to address the incense in the Temple, although if want wanted to make a biblical and historical case for drugs in the common era that would be foolish to leave out of the thesis............unless of course it is counterproductive to a particular bias agenda.....

keep shinin

jerm

 

[edixon]

He already answered that. "what he thinks of the water into wine story".

He presents Y'shua as a militant leader which is an interesting angle but not that uncommon for "Messiahs" of His day.

He refuses to address the incense in the Temple, although if want wanted to make a biblical and historical case for drugs in the common era that would be foolish to leave out of the thesis............unless of course it is counterproductive to a particular bias agenda.....

keep shinin

jerm

Thanks, I didn't think he would listen to reason.




Nameste,
Ed

 

[Nazaroo]

Hardly! This has been argued for thousands of years.

I understand your points, ...
I want to ask, how you feel about Jesus turning water to wine.
I suppose you believe He did, but was it just juice or was it fermented?

Nameste,
Ed

The full answer to your very good question was discussed in great detail by me in another thread on CARM forum only a few months ago.

But they have restricted access to threads in many forum areas to members only now, so I don't know if the link will work for you.

Even if you access that thread, in order to catch up on the discussion, you also need to read the other thread on "wine" (oinos) and alcohol in that forum (also probably restricted). However, you can also access a similar thread of mine on CF forums too. I will try to find the link...

and you need my commentary on a mistranslation of Mark, but that can be found here :

http://adultera.awardspace.com/SUPLEM/UBSgaffs.html#Mark10

This explains how Mark was garbled and mistranslated by modern RC versions to support the doctrine that Gentiles and Christians can eat anything they want, when in fact that is scientifically false and medically dangerous.

I will however, start a new thread here on TOL in order for people here to get the full argument concerning the Wedding at Cana in John's Gospel.


Peace
Nazaroo

 

[Ktoyou]

The whole point of Malthus and modern ethnic murder is to kill non-whites. Of course that means that "medicine" shipped to the third world is worthless, and actually kills people.

Its no coincidence.

Malthus and the European Elite plan to kill Blacks and Asians:

this is a bit crazy, particularly including Asians

 

[Nazaroo]

this is a bit crazy, particularly including Asians

Yes, it IS a bit crazy: but it accurately reflects the way the European elite viewed other ethnic groups, especially after Malthus published his popular essays on how "whites" were slowing down in reproduction while other ethnic groups were multiplying at faster rates, and his charts on how long the world's resources would last at projected (exponential) rates.

This elitist thinking is popular among the minority of European power-groups (some 500 rich families) who control most of the world's industry, banking and trade.

I never said it was clear thinking or even sane thinking, just that Malthus was and is popular among the super-rich.

peace
Nazaroo

 

[Ktoyou]

Yes, it IS a bit crazy: but it accurately reflects the way the European elite viewed other ethnic groups, especially after Malthus published his popular essays on how "whites" were slowing down in reproduction while other ethnic groups were multiplying at faster rates, and his charts on how long the world's resources would last at projected (exponential) rates.

This elitist thinking is popular among the minority of European power-groups (some 500 rich families) who control most of the world's industry, banking and trade.

I never said it was clear thinking or even sane thinking, just that Malthus was and is popular among the super-rich.

peace
Nazaroo

Problem is the super rich is increasing amongst Asians much faster than Europeans and since 1945, Asians have become more elite in attitude than Europeans.

These ideas, you point out as Malthus, only reveals his old way of looking at the world; he must be a 19th century thinker.

 

[Nazaroo]

Problem is the super rich is increasing amongst Asians much faster than Europeans and since 1945, Asians have become more elite in attitude than Europeans.

These ideas, you point out as Malthus, only reveals his old way of looking at the world; he must be a 19th century thinker.

Malthus may have been a 19th century thinker, but unfortunately the current elite are 21st century idiots who run the world system of economics, trade, warfare and government.

These clowns perpetuate these nonsensical, racist, and unscientific ideas, because it suits their own xenophobic agendas.

peace
Nazaroo

 

[Nazaroo]

He already answered that. "what he thinks of the water into wine story".

He presents Y'shua as a militant leader which is an interesting angle but not that uncommon for "Messiahs" of His day.

He refuses to address the incense in the Temple, although if want wanted to make a biblical and historical case for drugs in the common era that would be foolish to leave out of the thesis............unless of course it is counterproductive to a particular bias agenda.....

keep shinin

jerm

We are well aware of the popular belief that Moses and his men smoked marijuana in the "tent of the LORD", a story which is continually propagated by those who want to legalize marijuana and other drugs.

However, no credible scholar has given any support to this absurd thesis.

John Allegro is the exception, but he was a wacko who thought that Moses also promoted eating "magic (hallucenogenic) mushrooms" and worshipped them.

No other serious researchers (including Jewish atheists) have taken Allegro's claims seriously.

peace
Nazaroo

 

[LightSon]

The obvious question then comes to mind.

Many mainstream Christian groups, even large denominations, have come to understand that the New Testament recommends abstinence, not "moderation", with both alcohol, and sex, because this impedes the Gospel the least, when such abstinence is done in the right Spirit of charity and concern for weaker brothers, sisters, neighbours, and children.

Is it not likely, even very obvious, that something has gone terribly wrong in modern hermeneutics and exegesis, when either (a) hypocrisy is created in the selective interpretation of 'freedoms'? or (b) other formerly clear teachings become so significantly weakened (e.g. the position on fornication), that almost any behaviour is accepted?

Finally: What damage is done to the authority of the Bible, especially the New Testament, when churches can RE-define 'normal' and acceptable ethical behaviour over and above the teaching found in the NT itself? Isn't there a 'consistency' requirement for any NEW revelations or innovations? A backwards-compatibility if you will, for modern Christian doctrine and practice?

Or do we open the Bottomless Pit and let out every variation of behaviour that would formerly have been identified as "sin"?

We have in fact already seen this in some denominations today, with the approval of open homosexual relations, recreational alcohol and drug abuse, fornication and 'open-marriages', reckless selfishness and hedonism.

What will distinguish a "Christian" in the near future? Bingo gambling? Building-maintenance funds?

peace
Nazaroo

I haven't figured Nazaroo out yet, but he does ask some good questions. Who can disagree that most churches have moved in their moral standards, often just a few paces behind the world. I met a young unmarried couple recently, who both claim to be Christian, yet "sleep" at each other's apartment unbashedly. Huh? Is this okay now? Does the flock sleep as we fall down every slippery slope?