lifeisgood
New member
Not true.
Crude, but clear, schemes of ages and dispensations are found in ante-Nicene fathers such as Justin Martyr (110-165), Irenaeus (130-200), Tertullian (c. 160-220), Methodius (d. 311), Victorinus of Petau (d. 304).
Does Luke 19:44 disprove Preterism?
- Thread starter George Affleck
- Start date
Not true.
Crude, but clear, schemes of ages and dispensations are found in ante-Nicene fathers such as Justin Martyr (110-165), Irenaeus (130-200), Tertullian (c. 160-220), Methodius (d. 311), Victorinus of Petau (d. 304).
Nobody taught about a secret rapture, and then a return of Christ years later after an alleged 7 year trib, before Darby invented it.
No matter how hard you Darby Followers want it to be, it isn't there.
musterion
Well-known member
Prove it.
musterion
Well-known member
Luke 19:44 destroys your doctrine.
Was Jesus literally a lamb?
Was Jesus literally a cornerstone?
Were the Apostles literally a foundation of a building?
Was Jesus literally a shepherd?
Did Jesus literally have a herd of sheep?
Was Jesus literally a gate?
Was Israel literally an olive tree?
Is the word of God literally bread?
Is there a literal harvest at the end of the world?
Did literal milk and honey flow in the rivers when Joshua crossed the Jordan?
I could go on and on steko.
Why is that when you say something is figurative it's ok, but when I do, I'm accused of "spiritualizing"?
Nope.
Luke 19:44 proves you wrong.
You're desperate. You keep clinging to one theory after another re: Matt 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.
You've gone from a subjunctive mood, to claiming there were three towers still standing in 70AD, to " this generation" meaning all of mankind since Cain.
lifeisgood
New member
The Early Church Believed In The Rapture!
Irenaeus (130 A.D. – 202 AD): On the subject of the Rapture, in Against Heresies 5.29, he wrote:
“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons “as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance — in fact, as nothing;”(1) so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, “There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.”(2) For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
Cyprian (200 AD – 258 AD): In Treatises of Cyprian he wrote in describing the end times Great Tribulation:
“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”
Ephraim (306 AD – 373 AD): In his work, On The Last Times 2, he wrote:
“We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated) , and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time.
Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour, and the end of the world comes to the harvest, and angels, armed and prepared, hold sickles in their hands, awaiting the empire of the Lord. And we think that the earth exists with blind infidelity, arriving at its downfall early. Commotions are brought forth, wars of diverse peoples and battles and incursions of the barbarians threaten, and our regions shall be desolated, and we neither become very much afraid of the report nor of the appearance, in order that we may at least do penance; because they hurl fear at us, and we do not wish to be changed, although we at least stand in need of penance for our actions!”
(Luke 19:44) They will dash you to the ground, you and the children within your walls. They will not leave one stone on another, because you did not recognize the time of God’s coming to you.”
Lines up perfect with what Peter and Paul said:
(Acts 2:23) This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
(1 Thess 2:15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
The temple was destroyed in 70AD, with not one stone left standing upon another. Over a million Jews were killed, and the city of Jerusalem was leveled to the ground.
The events of 70AD were prophesied by Jesus, and Jesus makes it clear in Luke 19:44 that the destruction took place because that generation of Jews not only rejected Christ Jesus, they killed Him.
Lines up perfect with what Peter and Paul said:
(Acts 2:23) This man was handed over to you by God’s deliberate plan and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.
(1 Thess 2:15) Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
The temple was destroyed in 70AD, with not one stone left standing upon another. Over a million Jews were killed, and the city of Jerusalem was leveled to the ground.
The events of 70AD were prophesied by Jesus, and Jesus makes it clear in Luke 19:44 that the destruction took place because that generation of Jews not only rejected Christ Jesus, they killed Him.
Why do you embarrass yourself like this?
Instead of copying and pasting from a Dispensational website, you should really do some research first.
First off, the quote you give above is from Treatise VII, which is called "On the Mortality". HERE
You should read the opening paragraph, it talks about the diseases and deaths that were taking place at that time.
The quote you gave, when taken in context, is referring to individuals who were getting sick and dying, NOT a rapture of the church.
Here is what the preceding verse of the quote you gave says:
" laying aside the fear of death, let us think on the immortality which follows. By this let us show ourselves to be what we believe, that we do not grieve over the departure of those dear to us (previous deaths), and that when the day of our summons shall arrive (we get deadly infection), we come without delay and without resistance to the Lord when He Himself calls us.”.
Again, the context is about disease, sickness, and dying, NOT a secret rapture of the church.
Also, whatever Dispensational website you got the quote from misquotes Cyprian. Your quote says "early departure", that is not correct, the correct document says "earlier departure", meaning getting sick and dying from disease earlier than planned, NOT a secret rapture of the church.
You should really do some research before you blindly go to a Dispensational website and copy and paste something out of context to support your rapture heresy.
So that maybe you Darby Followers won't keep embarrassing yourselves, let's place the preceding paragraph (in red) with the paragraph you quoted out of context (in purple):
" laying aside the fear of death, let us think on the immortality which follows. By this let us show ourselves to be what we believe, that we do not grieve over the departure of those dear to us (previous deaths), and that when the day of our summons shall arrive (we get deadly infection), we come without delay and without resistance to the Lord when He Himself calls us.”.....“We who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible. Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early (EARLIER, not early) departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent? Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world and restores us to paradise and the kingdom.”
The title is "On the Mortality", and has absolutely NOTHING to do with an alleged rapture.
It's about believers getting sick and dying earlier in life.
Not only is the paragraph you quoted taken out of context, the word "earlier" was falsely changed to "early" by the deceiving Dispensational website you copied and pasted it from.
Stop embarrassing yourself!!!!
His standard spam.
You deny that members of the boc will have their bodies redeemed, you pervert, perverting 1 Cor. 15 ff.
"I don't believe that believers today will be resurrected, because I believe that when a believer physically dies today, that believer is instantly placed in the kingdom."-devil boy Craigie Tet.
A lie, that Craigie's father the devil taught him, while Craigie sat at his feet, keeping his papa shiny, while buffing him up,teaching him AD 70-ism/Preterism.
A main component, pervert, of the bible, it's themes, pervert, the foundation of the gospel of Christ, 1 Cor. 15 ff...is not just "soul/spiritual salvation/deliverance," but redemption of the(physical, by definition) body, resurrection/redemption of the body, to restore "that which was lost" at "the fall" in Genesis, the "regeneration,"...........
Once again, Craigie-100+ times, and counting, address this, punk:
Here is another, big fat lie, from pudgy, Preterist perverter, Tellalie Craigie:
"Tet: "The LORD Jesus Christ returned in the form of a Roman Army." "-STP
"Never said that."-Tet.
Lie-
"Tet is a preterist that believes Christ already returned in 70 AD via the Roman Army."-Tambora, on another TOL thread
"Correct, and thanks for making it clear that it was the Roman army that was His return."-stupid Craigie
"The Roman army destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD. That is what Jesus meant when He said He will return."-Gomer Tet.
Vs.
He lies, again:
"Jesus never physically returned, and never will physically return to planet earth after He ascended to Heaven"-Preterist deceiver Tet.
=satanic, also, as no scripture says that the Lord Jesus Chris would lose His "flesh and bone" glorified, resurrected body, with which He ascended to the third heaven, when He returned-NADA. Satanic Preterism, Craigie being a shill, makes this up.
The lie...according to this Preterist con job, in this "man made" AD 70-ism "belief system," he returned "un physically," but everyone saw Him, and signs are invisible.
“And that is what happened. The Lord came in a way that everyone could see Him. However, He never touched planet earth, and when this event was over, He then sat on the throne in Heaven NOT on planet earth.”-Tet.
Ascended up physically, never returned physically in AD 70, just as some disembodied spirit, everyone saw Him, even though he did not return physically in AD 70.
Wait....it was the Roman army.
You wicked deceiver.
Now for over the 100th time, Craigie, identify this "everyone"that allegedly saw this "Jesus" return in 70 AD, this "Jesus" who returned with no "flesh and bone," but merely a "disembodied spirit."
Gives us names, citations. ___________________
Hebrews 9:28 KJV
so Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
Vs. Preterist Perverter Craigie Tellalie:
"The Roman army destroyed Jerusalem in 70AD. That is what Jesus meant when He said He will return."-Gomer Tet.
Shazam, Gomer Tellalie! The Roman army was looking for the Saviour, for their salvation/deliverance, and He appeared to them!!!!!! That is the second coming!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Preterist scam snake oil................
Not a peep, from the devil boy-2 years of silencio.
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
You are so right - context is extremely important. That is why the word "ye" in verse 33 is so important; for context. Jesus was speaking to flesh and blood people who would be alive and "see" the threat of desolation "at the doors" of Jerusalem and the temple.
The temple was dead to God and Christ. He was the final sacrifice for sin and the blood of animal sacrifices was now the stench of a rotting carcass in God's nostrils. It was ready for the Roman vultures to pick it clean.
It was time for the powers of heaven to be shaken. This was the greatest of all tribulations in that it was God's chosen city and God's chosen people who would finally fill up the cup of iniquity and God's wrath would be poured out on the desolate. No longer would faith in God be demonstrated by his people in the physical presentation of animals for atonement. The new temple was rebuilt in Jesus' resurrected body and the old temple was dead to God.
The same figurative language that is used for 'lights out' for Egypt (Ezek. 32), Babylon (Is. 13) and Edom (Is. 34) is used here for Jerusalem. Jesus is now the light of world and there is no need for any other. The 12 tribes mourned the loss of their status as physical bright lights in God's religious economy and were lost to history being replaced by the 12 apostles whose spiritual faith would be multiplied throughout the world.
Spam
1. Yes,they did, devil boy, and you were shown documentation, but no matter how hard you devil followers do not want it to be, it is there, but your father the devil keeps telling you to deny it.
2. Irrelevant, devil boy.
It's irrelevant as to when truth is discovered, devil boy. Craigie once again asserts that Roman Catholicism is true, The Reformation in the 1500's is false, and "Spherical earth-ism" is false.
3. Is not all false doctrine, "invented," sweetie boy? How does that "invented stumper bode for your argument, sissy?
Craigie: God can invent.
4. It is undisputed, that you "invented" this satanic "doctrine:"
-That the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, the law that he never taught,
-People are brought too Christ, in the past, and now, by being taught the law, by the Levites, by Christ rejecting Jews, and not by the LORD God, who,by definition, is the Lord Jesus Christ,
-That the Lord Jesus Christ lost His "flesh and bone" body, upon ascending to heaven, and thus is not a man today, is just some "disembodied spirit," and thus is not the mediator between God and man,
-That there is no redemption of the body,the adoption, promised to members of the boc, thus perverting the gospel of Christ, 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV...
And you cannot provide anyone, on record, that ever taught this satanic "doctrine" of yours, before you did.
Right Craigie pie?
As I predicted-the punk won't touch this post, avoiding answering it, for over 3 years.
I was shown a paragraph that was taken out of context, and deliberately altered. It had absolutely nothing to do with Darby's rapture. It was a document about Christians getting sick and dying at an early age.
That's what you guys call "documentation" for the alleged rapture.
No matter how hard you Dispies want it to be, no matter how desperately you Dispies search, no one taught a secret rapture before John Nelson Darby invented it.
You guys are doing nothing but embarrassing yourselves trying to show something that doesn't exist.
:thumb:
It's so plain and simple.
Only intellectually dishonest people with an agenda fight it.
Made up, you deceiving,lying punk.The quotes are about the rapture, but your father the devil keeps telling you to deny it, and plagiarize others explanation of the quotes.
Now, punk, tells us as to the relevance of when objective truth is discovered(and I will expose you lying, again), and why you lied about that, and that God can "invent," and show us doumentation on the things you "teach," from other teachers, as I asked.
So....these flesh and blood people who were alive at the time the Lord Jesus was speaking were the same people who killed Zacharias, son of Barachias in 2Ch_24:20-22. :loser:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Good one, devil boy-you talking about honesty, and being known as one of the most habitual liars on TOL.
It's irrelevant as to when truth is discovered, devil boy. Craigie once again asserts that Roman Catholicism is true, The Reformation in the 1500's is false, and "Spherical earth-ism" is false.
Is not all false doctrine, "invented," sweetie boy? How does that "invented stumper bode for your argument, sissy?
Craigie: God can invent.
It is undisputed, that you "invented" this satanic "doctrine:"
-That the Lord Jesus Christ fulfilled the law, the law that he never taught,
-People are brought too Christ, in the past, and now, by being taught the law, by the Levites, by Christ rejecting Jews, and not by the LORD God, who,by definition, is the Lord Jesus Christ,
-That the Lord Jesus Christ lost His "flesh and bone" body, upon ascending to heaven, and thus is not a man today, is just some "disembodied spirit," and thus is not the mediator between God and man,
-That there is no redemption of the body,the adoption, promised to members of the boc, thus perverting the gospel of Christ, 1 Cor. 15:1-4 KJV...
-That the Roman army in AD 70, was the second coming, "the second time," and that the Roman army was looking for the return of the aviour, for their salvation, as you assert...
And you cannot provide anyone, on record, that ever taught this satanic "doctrine" of yours, before you did.
Right Craigie pie?
Not a peep.
Show us some documentation, Craigie, re. this "The Roman army in 70 AD" was the second coming. Show us others teaching that, before you. Show us the books, from which you plagiarized that, devil boy.
I thought so. Craigie suffers another "death knell!!!!"
George Affleck
TOL Subscriber
If that seems like logic to you, then I understand how it is impossible for you to set aside your pre-conceived ideas and study intelligently.
The answer to your question is; No, they were not and I did not, by any stretch of anyone's imagination, suggest that they were. That was a different discourse, spoken for a different reason to different people.