Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Grosnick Marowbe]

You've been answered on this point time and again.

God's ordaining includes the means to His ends.

God's act of election itself saved no one; what it did was to mark out certain individuals for salvation. Consequently, the doctrine of election must not be divorced from the doctrines of human guilt, redemption, and regeneration, or else it will be distorted and misrepresented. In other words, if the Father’s act of election is to be kept in its proper biblical balance and correctly understood, it must be related to the redeeming work of the Son, who gave Himself to save the elect, and to the renewing work of the Spirit, who brings the elect to faith in Christ.

Those so marked out for salvation will come to the faith by the means decreed by God, which is ordinarily by the hearing of the Good News. No one knows who the elect are but God. God commands the Gospel be preached promiscuously such that those so marked out for salvation will come to the faith.

AMR

What it this boils down to is the same old Calvinist propaganda that makes absolutely no sense. Only it's adherents see the logic in it. I first heard the Gospel in 1962 and placed my faith in Christ as my Savior. I never even heard of Calvinism until around 1975 or so. I listened to Family Radio in southern California. A guy by the name of Harold Camping owned the station. He later became infamous for predicting the end of the world in about 2011. It got worldwide attention. His station broadcasted only Reformed (Calvinist) preachers, such as John MacArthur, etc. I used to like the Christian music they played.

Camping came from a "Dutch Reformed" background and he taught only Calvinism on his broadcasts. He taught that babies that died and weren't Elect went to Hell. He also taught that women that were beaten by their Husbands were to stay with them even if the Husband killed them. Ever heard of J. Vernon McGee? he's a long deceased radio preacher from years ago. (Very famous) He's got a broadcast on You-Tube about Calvinism. You ought to take a listen.

 

[popsthebuilder]

What it this boils down to is the same old Calvinist propaganda that makes absolutely no sense. Only it's adherents see the logic in it. I first heard the Gospel in 1962 and placed my faith in Christ as my Savior. I never even heard of Calvinism until around 1975 or so. I listened to Family Radio in southern California. A guy by the name of Harold Camping owned the station. He later became infamous for predicting the end of the world in about 2011. It got worldwide attention. His station broadcasted only Reformed (Calvinist) preachers, such as John MacArthur, etc. I used to like the Christian music they played.

Camping came from a "Dutch Reformed" background and he taught only Calvinism on his broadcasts. He taught that babies that died and weren't Elect went to Hell. He also taught that women that were beaten by their Husbands were to stay with them even if the Husband killed them. Ever heard of J. Vernon McGee? he's a long deceased radio preacher from years ago. (Very famous) He's got a broadcast on You-Tube about Calvinism. You ought to take a listen.

It sounds to me that that individual was a poor representative of faith in GOD. Pride and greed can skew anyone's judgement.



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[TulipBee]

 

[TulipBee]

You've been answered on this point time and again.

God's ordaining includes the means to His ends.

God's act of election itself saved no one; what it did was to mark out certain individuals for salvation. Consequently, the doctrine of election must not be divorced from the doctrines of human guilt, redemption, and regeneration, or else it will be distorted and misrepresented. In other words, if the Father’s act of election is to be kept in its proper biblical balance and correctly understood, it must be related to the redeeming work of the Son, who gave Himself to save the elect, and to the renewing work of the Spirit, who brings the elect to faith in Christ.

Those so marked out for salvation will come to the faith by the means decreed by God, which is ordinarily by the hearing of the Good News. No one knows who the elect are but God. God commands the Gospel be preached promiscuously such that those so marked out for salvation will come to the faith.

AMR

why does my church still ask me if im saved or that i accepted jesus?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

why does my church still ask me if im saved or that i accepted jesus?

Perhaps, they discern that you're not a member of the Body of Christ for whatever reason? Any ideas of your own?

 

[Robert Pate]

What it this boils down to is the same old Calvinist propaganda that makes absolutely no sense. Only it's adherents see the logic in it. I first heard the Gospel in 1962 and placed my faith in Christ as my Savior. I never even heard of Calvinism until around 1975 or so. I listened to Family Radio in southern California. A guy by the name of Harold Camping owned the station. He later became infamous for predicting the end of the world in about 2011. It got worldwide attention. His station broadcasted only Reformed (Calvinist) preachers, such as John MacArthur, etc. I used to like the Christian music they played.

Camping came from a "Dutch Reformed" background and he taught only Calvinism on his broadcasts. He taught that babies that died and weren't Elect went to Hell. He also taught that women that were beaten by their Husbands were to stay with them even if the Husband killed them. Ever heard of J. Vernon McGee? he's a long deceased radio preacher from years ago. (Very famous) He's got a broadcast on You-Tube about Calvinism. You ought to take a listen.

I miss Vernon. No good preachers today.

 

[patrick jane]

If Calvinism was correct (which it isn't) then, why would anybody in their right mind bother to preach the Gospel, go to church, do good works, etc? What would be the sense in any of that? Calvinism tells us that God chose before the foundation of the world who He would save and who He would send into eternal damnation. So, what would be the sense in trying to spread the Gospel, etc? After all, God already chose who He would save and NOTHING will stand in the way of that transpiring, correct? What would be the incentive for preaching the Gospel? The Elect will be sought out and saved either way, right?

Exactly.

 

[Robert Pate]

If Calvinism was correct (which it isn't) then, why would anybody in their right mind bother to preach the Gospel, go to church, do good works, etc? What would be the sense in any of that? Calvinism tells us that God chose before the foundation of the world who He would save and who He would send into eternal damnation. So, what would be the sense in trying to spread the Gospel, etc? After all, God already chose who He would save and NOTHING will stand in the way of that transpiring, correct? What would be the incentive for preaching the Gospel? The Elect will be sought out and saved either way, right?

It is the devils plan to try and destroy Christianity.

 

[6days]

I first heard the Gospel in 1962 and placed my faith in Christ as my Savior.

Can we agree that we "know this: I was blind, and now I can see!". The exact process of how we became saved (My reasoning VS God's revelation) is not agreed on.

 

[Robert Pate]

Can we agree that we "know this: I was blind, and now I can see!". The exact process of how we became saved (My reasoning VS God's revelation) is not agreed on.

Don't try to complicate it.

Salvation is by simple child like faith in Christ. Plus nothing.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

It is the devils plan to try and destroy Christianity.

One of Satan's counterfeits.

 

[Robert Pate]

One of Satan's counterfeits.

There are many counterfeits.

"Few there be that find it" Matthew 7:14.

 

[Tambora]

A continuation of my post #1081 for more details.

Decretive: What He decides, regardless of anything else.
Prescriptive: What He decides, considering other things.

The first would be a case of no "ifs, ands, or buts".

The second does.

The second requires a waiting period to see whether the other party lives up to the agreement or not.

Did GOD have to wait to see whether the other party would live up to agreement, or did GOD already know in advance what each individual would choose to do?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

What it this boils down to is the same old Calvinist propaganda that makes absolutely no sense. Only it's adherents see the logic in it. I first heard the Gospel in 1962 and placed my faith in Christ as my Savior. I never even heard of Calvinism until around 1975 or so. I listened to Family Radio in southern California. A guy by the name of Harold Camping owned the station...

Rather than employing the usual genetic fallacies in hopes of making your point, why not just go to the credible sources for your information from which to form an opinion? I can pick all manner of odd duck in any doctrinal discussion and claim all manner of nonsense as if these odd ones are representative of the actual majority view of a system of beliefs. That does not make for real discussion.

If you genuinely want to understand Reformed views, read the WCF and its exposition. Then you can use what you have read to make some sort of argument and see how things go in a discussion. No Calvinist or Reformed person will then charge you with not trying to understand that which you cavil about. Those two linked items represent the orthodox view of the Reformed. Start with them and then draw some conclusions or arguments. Otherwise, all you continue to do is give evidence of the intellectual shallowness of your efforts, while ignoring the direct answer I provided you to your other post about explaining why evangelization is required for the Calvinist, or any group for that matter.

GM: Calvinists should not even bother going to church...etc etc

Calvinist: Answer given explaining why this is an incorrect statement based upon ignorance.

GM: Harold Camping!

^^The Arminian's idea of argumentation. Sigh.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

why does my church still ask me if im saved or that i accepted jesus?

Any church that does not ask a person seeking to covenant with that church would be in violation of Scripture. For example, consider the fencing of the table for the Supper that the church should enforce so that no one partake of the Supper in error. Giving a testimony for one's faith before the local session or body is to be expected of all who seek to join the local assembly.

Now if you have done so, and continue to be asked these sort of questions, I recommend you take that up with an elder or the Pastor to understand what is going on.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

A phone purchase I can justify, a laptop... Not so much. And given the nature of my lifestyle, it wouldn't last too long anyway.

If all you need is something to access the internet and do things online, consider a Chromebook:

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias=aps&field-keywords=chromebook

Very inexpensive and quite easy to use.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Well, bring it on then? Let's discuss those Scripture verses that PROVE Calvinism and why.

Really? Each and every time I have engaged you, I am met with hand waving complaints about how much effort it requires for you to dig deeper. Have you changed your attitude now? Or are you just baiting and relying on the efforts of others to weigh in where you fear to tread?

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Rather than employing the usual genetic fallacies in hopes of making your point, why not just go to the credible sources for your information from which to form an opinion? I can pick all manner of odd duck in any doctrinal discussion and claim all manner of nonsense as if these odd ones are representative of the actual majority view of a system of beliefs. That does not make for real discussion.

If you genuinely want to understand Reformed views, read the WCF and its exposition. Then you can use what you have read to make some sort of argument and see how things go in a discussion. No Calvinist or Reformed person will then charge you with not trying to understand that which you cavil about. Those two linked items represent the orthodox view of the Reformed. Start with them and then draw some conclusions or arguments. Otherwise, all you continue to do is give evidence of the intellectual shallowness of your efforts, while ignoring the direct answer I provided you to your other post about explaining why evangelization is required for the Calvinist, or any group for that matter.

GM: Calvinists should not even bother going to church...etc etc

Calvinist: Answer given explaining why this is an incorrect statement based upon ignorance.

GM: Harold Camping!

^^The Arminian's idea of argumentation. Sigh.

AMR

Tell ya what, you post what you feel is the right thing, I'll post what I feel is the right thing, And I'll be in Scotland afore ye.

Sometimes SIMPLE is better.

 

[Robert Pate]

Rather than employing the usual genetic fallacies in hopes of making your point, why not just go to the credible sources for your information from which to form an opinion? I can pick all manner of odd duck in any doctrinal discussion and claim all manner of nonsense as if these odd ones are representative of the actual majority view of a system of beliefs. That does not make for real discussion.

If you genuinely want to understand Reformed views, read the WCF and its exposition. Then you can use what you have read to make some sort of argument and see how things go in a discussion. No Calvinist or Reformed person will then charge you with not trying to understand that which you cavil about. Those two linked items represent the orthodox view of the Reformed. Start with them and then draw some conclusions or arguments. Otherwise, all you continue to do is give evidence of the intellectual shallowness of your efforts, while ignoring the direct answer I provided you to your other post about explaining why evangelization is required for the Calvinist, or any group for that matter.

GM: Calvinists should not even bother going to church...etc etc

Calvinist: Answer given explaining why this is an incorrect statement based upon ignorance.

GM: Harold Camping!

^^The Arminian's idea of argumentation. Sigh.

AMR

All that one needs to know about Calvinism is that they believe that God chose some to be saved before the foundation of the world and damned the rest to hell. Which makes God an unjust sinner.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Let's face it AMR, so far as I see and believe it, Calvinism is a very old Cult. Calvinists worship "Another gospel" and "Another god."