Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[popsthebuilder]

Well, bring it on then? Let's discuss those Scripture verses that PROVE Calvinism and why. The responsibility to prove what you're saying is on you now. If I can't answer certain questions, there are others around TOL that are more than capable. Not any one person has all the answers.

I'm not too interested in fighting about Calvinism. I'm here to learn about it and people's opinions about it and if it's doctrines really paint GOD as unjust. You've said often that it makes GOD unjust, but have yet to show or explain how, how you can justify judging GOD, as if the pot can say to the Potter "why did you form me, and what will you fill me with".

Peace

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[popsthebuilder]

Not ALL the angels rebelled Pops. Why don't you get to the point Pops? Do you even have one? Next, you'll be asking: "Why does a Turtle have a shell?"

Yes; my point was that not all the angels had free will, or a will differing from that of GOD. If they had then they too would have rebelled.

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[popsthebuilder]

I haven't seen the word hell mistranslated in scripture. I have seen some people mistranslate the word hell that they read in scripture.

Neither Gehena nor Sheol mean eternal damnation or eternal torture.

It is more complex than that, but that is the jist of it.

The translators were confused as to the meanings of the original words and the word hell was placed in unfitting spots. The doctrine of eternal damnation and torture stemmed from this error in my opinion. I didn't do the study myself, but followed along closely to someone else's.

If you are insinuating that I misrepresented or misinterpreted something then perhaps you could explain what specifically.

Peace

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[Grosnick Marowbe]

Neither Gehena nor Sheol mean eternal damnation or eternal torture.

It is more complex than that, but that is the jist of it.

The translators were confused as to the meanings of the original words and the word hell was placed in unfitting spots. The doctrine of eternal damnation and torture stemmed from this error in my opinion. I didn't do the study myself, but followed along closely to someone else's.

If you are insinuating that I misrepresented or misinterpreted something then perhaps you could explain what specifically.

Peace

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So, you were around back then, huh? Where does the phrase: Lake of Fire come from?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yes; my point was that not all the angels had free will, or a will differing from that of GOD. If they had then they too would have rebelled.

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Why would they have? Explain it to us Pops. You're not making any sense Pops. Why would God give some angels free will and not others?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I'm not too interested in fighting about Calvinism. I'm here to learn about it and people's opinions about it and if it's doctrines really paint GOD as unjust. You've said often that it makes GOD unjust, but have yet to show or explain how, how you can justify judging GOD, as if the pot can say to the Potter "why did you form me, and what will you fill me with".

Peace

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I've NEVER said it makes God unjust. I've said when I read the Bible I don't see the Calvinist god or the Calvinist gospel. I see the True God and the True Gospel. There's a BIG difference, Pops.

 

[Rosenritter]

No one in Hell is repenting. Hell's residents continue to gnash their teeth at God, fists clenched upwards, hence by their continual sin they are punished everlastingly. If someone genuinely repented (in the Biblical sense) for their sin, versus what is but mere human regret, they would know that they are exactly where they should be and would be praying for the mercy of God, knowing they do not deserve mercy. That simply does not happen. In effect, the gates of hell are locked from the inside.

AMR

1. Hell's residents are at rest, according to the prophet Job.
2. I believe that Jesus said that he had the keys to death and hell. When he said that it sounded like he planned on using them.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Grosnick, was the book of Revelation meant to contradict other parts of the Bible, or to expand upon it? When you read Revelation 20:10 weren't you doing so with an assumption that the devil is immortal?

Yes, Satan will live forever in the "Lake of Fire." Along with the false prophet, the beast, the fallen angels (I believe) and the unsaved of humanity.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Clete,

I know that I word things strangly at times. I understand that it can cause confusion, and in no way hold it against you for bringing it up it the context that you have. Being considerate is appreciated.

I'd like to state that I am on a cell phone using an app that I have by no means mastered. I can quote your whole post, but can't figure out how to cut and paste individual parts. Also if I was to quote you, I wouldn't be able to go back and review your post in order to give more specific answers or rebuttals. That is why this specific reply is in this particular format.

Anyway... Let's get right to it.

I asked why GOD would have to send GOD as a sacrifice to GOD in order to appease GOD?

Pops, why don't ya get yourself a small Laptop? It would make it easier for you.

 

[Rosenritter]

Decretive: What He decides, regardless of anything else.
Prescriptive: What He decides, considering other things.

What would a third option look like? Something totally out of His control or plan? *(not facetious, just trying to figure out what a third option would look like and coming up empty).

What would you call it when God wants something but doesn't want to (or cannot) force it? For example,God wants man to know true love for both his creator and his fellow man. Love, by definition, must be freely given, and cannot be forced by another.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

why isnt he open to the truth?

It depends on what truth you're referring to. The Grace Gospel Truth or The Calvinist False Truth?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

If Calvinism was correct (which it isn't) then, why would anybody in their right mind bother to preach the Gospel, go to church, do good works, etc? What would be the sense in any of that? Calvinism tells us that God chose before the foundation of the world who He would save and who He would send into eternal damnation. So, what would be the sense in trying to spread the Gospel, etc? After all, God already chose who He would save and NOTHING will stand in the way of that transpiring, correct? What would be the incentive for preaching the Gospel? The Elect will be sought out and saved either way, right?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinism makes no logical sense. When one is reading the Bible, Calvinism basically says: "Do you believe John Calvin or your lying eyes." Calvinism says humanity has NO free will, yet, we see free will throughout the Old and New Testament. Are we to believe the Calvinist or believe what we're reading with our eyes, our mind, and our heart?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I would suggest you look up a teaching by J. Vernon Mcgee on Calvinism. You'll find it on You-Tube. He's an old time radio Preacher who died in 1988. You'll find his teaching on Calvinism very eye-opening.

 

[Rosenritter]

Neither Gehena nor Sheol mean eternal damnation or eternal torture.

It is more complex than that, but that is the jist of it.

The translators were confused as to the meanings of the original words and the word hell was placed in unfitting spots. The doctrine of eternal damnation and torture stemmed from this error in my opinion. I didn't do the study myself, but followed along closely to someone else's.

If you are insinuating that I misrepresented or misinterpreted something then perhaps you could explain what specifically.

Peace

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You just demonstrated my point. You read the word "hell" and substituted eternal damnation and/or eternal torture. The translation using the word "hell" isn't at fault, it's what you just translated the word "hell" to mean regardless of context. Jesus remained in hell until he was raised from the dead, and he obviously wasn't experiencing eternal damnation or eternal torture, was he?

William Tyndale said that the scripture was easy to translate into English, that the original Hebrew agreed a thousand times better with the English than it did the Latin. "Sheol" is the unseen resting place of the dead. The word "hell" comes from an English word meaning "hidden" like the prefix you still see in a word like "helmet" (it hides your head) and also referring to a mythological goddess of death (akin to the god Hades.) The English is probably derived from the Hebrew in this case, it's a very natural translation.

I don't think that our translators confused the meanings of the original words here. To clarify, I can speak for the King James here with which I am more familiar. There are about a thousand different wordings out there now and perhaps there might be some of those that are confused.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

If Calvinism was correct (which it isn't) then, why would anybody in their right mind bother to preach the Gospel, go to church, do good works, etc? What would be the sense in any of that?

You've been answered on this point time and again.

God's ordaining includes the means to His ends.

God's act of election itself saved no one; what it did was to mark out certain individuals for salvation. Consequently, the doctrine of election must not be divorced from the doctrines of human guilt, redemption, and regeneration, or else it will be distorted and misrepresented. In other words, if the Father’s act of election is to be kept in its proper biblical balance and correctly understood, it must be related to the redeeming work of the Son, who gave Himself to save the elect, and to the renewing work of the Spirit, who brings the elect to faith in Christ.

Those so marked out for salvation will come to the faith by the means decreed by God, which is ordinarily by the hearing of the Good News. No one knows who the elect are but God. God commands the Gospel be preached promiscuously such that those so marked out for salvation will come to the faith.

AMR

 

[beloved57]

If Calvinism was correct (which it isn't) then, why would anybody in their right mind bother to preach the Gospel,

Thats the reason why the Gospel is Preached, for the elect to obtain the Salvation which is in Christ Jesus 2 Tim 2:10

Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

The Salvation which is in Christ Jesus is for the Elect !

 

[popsthebuilder]

Why would they have? Explain it to us Pops. You're not making any sense Pops. Why would God give some angels free will and not others?

What don't you get? It's not that some of the angels were created with free will and some not exactly. It's that though they may have had the gift of free will, the majority praised and followed the direction of GOD, that majority had a will to do GOD'S will. It isn't that they don't have the capacity for freedom of choice, but more that they rightly chose to be obedient to GOD.

Why are we arguing about the will of angels anyway.

It was only my point to express that the angels that surround GOD are wholly of HIS will, though the 1/3 of the angels, the fallen angels, obviously did have a will that varied from GOD'S.

That's all. Why is that so hard to grasp?

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[popsthebuilder]

Pops, why don't ya get yourself a small Laptop? It would make it easier for you.

A phone purchase I can justify, a laptop... Not so much. And given the nature of my lifestyle, it wouldn't last too long anyway.

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[Grosnick Marowbe]

A phone purchase I can justify, a laptop... Not so much. And given the nature of my lifestyle, it wouldn't last too long anyway.

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Just trying to make it easier on ya.