I will not offer a rebuttal to your post which is a rabbit trail.
Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?
- Thread starter Robert Pate
- Start date
I will not offer a rebuttal to your post which is a rabbit trail.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Robert, what do you think God sees when He looks at an unregenerate, unbelieving, lost sinner? Does He see someone who may actually want to be saved, may actually want to turn from his wickedness but doesn't know how to? Someone who just doesn't have the right understanding? Is lack of knowledge the problem fallen man has? Are some unsaved men (spiritually) better than others in God's eyes or are all fallen men just that? Are there any that love God and His ways that still don't follow Him? Are there any that seek after righteousness because they have purposed in their heart so to do? And more to the point - how do they know when they have found it? When they do find it, do they embrace it wholeheartedly or do they reject it?
The nature of God's goodness (some men want to make it fairness - God is just and righteous, but not fair in the sense of parity of condition or opportunity) is seen in Him fulfilling what He promises - not giving everyone the same opportunities.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Romans 9:17-24
That's why men call God unfair - but He has never promised that fairness. However, where He has promised anything, He will bring it to pass :
Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the Lord: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God.
Isaiah 66:9
The gospel offer may go out to every ear, but the lack of hearing and believing is not the root cause - rather those people apparently don't believe because...
Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:25-28
Before you answer, think again about the questions I asked at the beginning of this post. Does a man really seek God or does he seek what he wants God to be? Aside from the Holy Spirit, none seek after who God truly is. That's why they reject God. Not because God has decided to predestine them to hell. The "thing formed" of Romans 9:20 doesn't have in mind what God does when he thinks of being made differently. His standards are his own - not those of the Potter. The model vessel he has in mind (i.e. that he would like to be made into) is one that pleases his own desires - not those of the Potter. The one who truly seeks the Potter is the one who wants to be used by the Potter for whatever He desires. The Potter whose ways and thoughts are NOT ours. Thus, when a vessel is made fitted for destruction, it is NOT against the will of the vessel. We judge according to our feelings and thoughts at the moment. God judges according to what actually (eternally) is. We think a way is good, God says it leads to destruction (Proverbs 16:25). We think we are seeking God on our own, but God says none seeks after Him unless He draws them (Romans 3:11, John 6:44).
The only one who receives the Truth is the one who has been called, drawn, prepared and taught of God. No one else wants it.
nikolai_42
"So then faith comes by hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.
All who hear and believe the Gospel are given faith and the Holy Spirit.
"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something) or by the hearing of faith (hearing and believing the Gospel)" Galatians 3:2.
On the day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews heard Peter preach the Gospel for the very first time. Some of those Jews had participated in the crucifixion of Christ, Acts 2:36.
Paul traveled over 10,000 miles and spent 20 years of his life preaching the Gospel to the heathen and now you want us to believe that it was all just a waist of time.
"So then faith comes by hearing by the word of God" Romans 10:17.
All who hear and believe the Gospel are given faith and the Holy Spirit.
"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law (because you did something) or by the hearing of faith (hearing and believing the Gospel)" Galatians 3:2.
On the day of Pentecost 8,000 Jews heard Peter preach the Gospel for the very first time. Some of those Jews had participated in the crucifixion of Christ, Acts 2:36.
Paul traveled over 10,000 miles and spent 20 years of his life preaching the Gospel to the heathen and now you want us to believe that it was all just a waist of time.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
You didn't answer any of the questions. Let me ask the most fundamental one again :
What do you think God sees when He looks at an unregenerate, unbelieving, lost sinner? Does He see someone who may actually want to be saved, may actually want to turn from his wickedness but doesn't know how to? Someone who just doesn't have the right understanding?
EDIT : I ask this because you draw conclusions that don't line up with even the most basic ideas of Calvinism. Scripture doesn't say evangelism is a waste of time and Calvinism (except maybe what is called hyper-Calvinism) doesn't either. It is God's appointed means of communicating the gospel. Man's assumptions of why men don't hear is an entirely different matter.
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But a truthful one.
I'm sure you know this already but for those who haven't noticed...
B57 has completely abandoned debating anything. He's devolved into a troll who posts one liners that INTENTIONALLY avoid saying anything of substance. Nearly 100% of his posts amount to, "You're wrong." He isn't interested in debating, he isn't even interested in discussing - ANYTHING.
He has been defeated. He's in denial about it but his every foundational belief has been pounded into powder to the point that he can't even muster the emotional energy required to engage the discussion. He is Monty Python's Black Knight threatening to bite our legs off.
Resting in Him,
Clete
You're a liar.
Any point made against you is rendered a rabbit trail.
You're nothing but a frightened, defeated, quadrolpegic biting at knee-caps.
You don't have the slightest clue as to what the Gospel is.
For now God sees ALL THINGS in his Son Jesus Christ, Colossians 1:20.
Jesus has reconciled a whole world of lost sinners unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.
Salvation has been provided for all by the doing and the dying of Jesus, so that now... "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
The Gospel draws men to Christ, this is why we preach and teach it.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Okay...and what would be preventing me from knowing it? We read the same bible, after all.
And Jesus Himself said this :
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
John 3:18
So again I ask...what does God see when He looks at the unbeliever?
Nowhere does scripture say the Gospel draws men. The Father Himself does (which is part of my point) :
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
John 6:44-45
So wouldn't you agree that without God doing the work in the man, that man neither comes to God nor is inclined so to do?
beloved57
Well-known member
For now, God does not see any unbelievers. God can only see his Son Jesus Christ. As far as God is concerned sin, death, and the Devil have been defeated, Colossians 2:15.
If you understood the Gospel you would understand that.
In the Gospel, Jesus justifies the ungodly, Romans 4:5 and reconciles the world unto God, 2 Corinthians 5:19.
However, there will be a judgment in which every individual will either be found in Christ or they will be found outside of Christ in their sins.
To be found "In Christ" means that you are trusting in his righteousness and in his atonement for your sins, plus nothing.
beloved57
Well-known member
Invalid comments.
popsthebuilder
New member
I don't know why people freak out about the Calvinist doctrine. As if they know GOD's Will in there own life more than He. What mere person could possibly have the knowledge or foresight to say that GOD does or doesn't allow one to wholly experience sin, suffering, waywardness, reality, help, salvation, direction, edification, chastisement, and submission by GOD's Will?
What arrogant fool is so haughty as to claim that GOD hadn't destined all these things and infinitely more before their conception, or the conception of the earth even?
Serious questions for anyone.
Peace
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The only thing that God imposes on us is life. All the rest is what we impose upon ourselves.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
So to sum up, in spite of what Jesus said in John 3:18 no one is already condemned because God chooses to see everything in Christ?
nikolai_42
Well-known member
It's much easier and neater to have a God we can comprehend - it just isn't biblical.
Salvation has been provided for all, but NOTHING is yours if you don't receive it, John 1:12.