Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?

[Clete]

Good thing eternal torment is a grand misconception then.

Peace

Nice move of the goal post there but it does your position no good at all because the torment wouldn't have to last ten minutes for it be unjust if those being punished had no ability to do otherwise.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

 

[fishrovmen]

As far as God is concerned Jesus Christ is God's new creation and his new humanity. To not believe that is to not believe the Gospel.

What verse can you post that says that Jesus was a "new creation and a new humanity"? And where do you see anyone in the Bible preaching that?

 

[nikolai_42]

As far as God is concerned Jesus Christ is God's new creation and his new humanity. To not believe that is to not believe the Gospel. Jesus is Lord because he has victoriously defeated sin, death and the devil. Colossians 2:15. If Jesus had not defeated sin, death and the devil, God would not have accepted him back into heaven and it would not be possible for anyone to be saved. For now God sees ALL THINGS in Christ, Colossians 1:20. For now God is at peace with the world. All that will change when Christ appears.

Where is the impetus to believe if God is at peace with everyone? Again, if He is at peace with the world, why does most of the world stand condemned before Him (John 3:18)?

The only ones who have peace with God are those that are in Christ :

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Romans 5:1

 

[Robert Pate]

What verse can you post that says that Jesus was a "new creation and a new humanity"? And where do you see anyone in the Bible preaching that?

The Bible is full of it, but you are to blind to see it, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

 

[Robert Pate]

Where is the impetus to believe if God is at peace with everyone? Again, if He is at peace with the world, why does most of the world stand condemned before Him (John 3:18)?

The only ones who have peace with God are those that are in Christ :

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Romans 5:1

What do you think Colossians 1:20, 21 is saying, oh blind one.

 

[Clete]

What verse can you post that says that Jesus was a "new creation and a new humanity"? And where do you see anyone in the Bible preaching that?

2 Corinthians 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. 18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Galatians 6:14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world. 15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.​

 

[fishrovmen]

The Bible is full of it, but you are to blind to see it, 2 Corinthians 5:17.

2 Corinthians 5:17 states that the new creation is those who are " in Christ". Christ is not created, He was begotten.

 

[popsthebuilder]

Nice move of the goal post there but it does your position no good at all because the torment wouldn't have to last ten minutes for it be unjust if those being punished had no ability to do otherwise.

Matthew 25:41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”​

What do don't seem to understand is that God is all knowing. It isn't necessarily that He so much destined souls to destruction, but that He knows which will turn towards His light, and those who will knowingly turn from it.

Is that really so hard a concept to grasp?

Better yet; is it nonsensical or unbiblical?

And you don't know what my position is so how can you assume am wrong?

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

What do don't seem to understand is that God is all knowing. It isn't necessarily that He so much destined souls to destruction, but that He knows which will turn towards His light, and those who will knowingly turn from it.

Is that really so hard a concept to grasp?

Better yet; is it nonsensical or unbiblical?

And you don't know what my position is so how can you assume am wrong?

Peace

Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk

You "desperately" need to learn how to use "Spell check," pal.

 

[Crucible]

Calvinism makes God God.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinism makes God God.

You Calvinists think you're all, "Bible Scholar Extraordinaire," don't you?

 

[Clete]

What do don't seem to understand is that God is all knowing. It isn't necessarily that He so much destined souls to destruction, but that He knows which will turn towards His light, and those who will knowingly turn from it.

This is NOT what the Calvinist doctrine of predestination is based upon.

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)​

And these are not beliefs peculiar to John Calvin himself but are and have continually been accepted and believed by ALL Calvinists throughout the doctrine's history.

Is that really so hard a concept to grasp?

You must not be very familiar with me. I've been debating Calvinism for a very very long time. Based on the point you've made about omniscience, I can guarantee that I understand Calvinism better than you do.

The notion that God knows everything in the sense you suggest is very debatable. That doctrine is based on and directly derived from the Aristotelian idea of Immutability, which is neither biblical nor rational. We can debate it if you like but it seems a bit too far off the topic of the thread to go into much detail here. Suffice it to say that God knows everything that is knowable that He wants to know. Going anything further than that requires going beyond the biblical evidence and introducing Pagan Greek philosophy.

Better yet; is it nonsensical or unbiblical?

Saying it doesn't make it so, PB. Prove it.

And you don't know what my position is so how can you assume am wrong?

The post I engaged you on began with the statement, "I don't know why people freak out about the Calvinist doctrine." A statement which was then followed by typical Calvinistic statements concerning predestination. All of which was posted in a thread entitled, "Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?".

It's not a big intellectual challenge to conclude that you're a Calvinist, at least in one form or another. And even if that impression was given in error, you'd sill be wrong for the specific reasons I gave in my posts. I did not make naked assertions but made an argument, which you respond to with one-liners that effectively move the goal post which I then argue doesn't fix the problem which YOU articulated and which now you're attempting to distance yourself from. If you don't believe this stuff then why did you call everyone who disagrees with it an arrogant fool? You clearly do believe it, I'm just not as stupid as you'd hoped I'd be.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[nikolai_42]

What do you think Colossians 1:20, 21 is saying, oh blind one.

I really can't post all of Ephesians 2, but Paul is saying the same thing to the Ephesian church as he is the Colossians. So the most directly relevant passage is this :

But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
Ephesians 2:13-18

The basic idea here is that the commandments separated man from God because no one was ever made perfect by obedience. No one could ever draw near with a purified conscience being free from sin because the commandments brought the knowledge of sin and showed man for what he really was. Even the sacrifices instituted by God could never actually take away sin :

For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.
Hebrews 10:1-4

That enmity (which is the antithesis to peace) was the necessary (and insuperable) separation that sin brought upon a wicked people (which is all mankind). Jesus not only provided a way to the Father - to peace with God - He actually WAS (and IS) that peace. In essence, this is (as I read it) Paul's way of exegeting the Lord's well known declaration :

I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6b

So in light of John 3:18, those who don't believe (since without faith it is impossible to please God) stand in exactly the same position before God as those under the Law because they are not in Christ. They are not (practically) included in that reconciliation Paul wrote about to the Ephesians and Colossians. As such, there is no exaggeration when one applies God's view of the unrepentant sinner under the Old Covenant as under the new :

God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
If he turn not, he will whet his sword; he hath bent his bow, and made it ready.
Psalm 7:11-12

Sounds a lot like this :

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Luke 13:5

And this :

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2 Peter 3:9-10

There is an objection that God is treating men differently than He did in the OT. God's forbearance with wickedness and His faithfulness to those who trusted in Him (Abraham being the father of the faithful - whose faith was counted to him for righteousness) is evidence that He is the same God treating men with the same infinite mercy. Read Psalm 78 for a taste of that. All of this was a prefiguring of what was already accomplished in heaven (Genesis 3:15) with the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world (Rev 13:8).

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

This is NOT what the Calvinist doctrine of predestination is based upon.

“God is moved to mercy for no other reason but that he wills to be merciful.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 8)

“… predestination to glory is the cause of predestination to grace, rather than the converse.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 9)

“Therefore, those whom God passes over, he condemns; and this he does for no other reason than that he wills to exclude them from the inheritance which he predestines for his own children.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christia/n Religion, Book 3, Chapter 23, Paragraph 1)

“We cannot assign any reason for his bestowing mercy on his people, but just as it so pleases him, neither can we have any reason for his reprobating others but his will.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 3, Chapter 22, Paragraph 11)​

And these are not beliefs peculiar to John Calvin himself but are and have continually been accepted and believed by ALL Calvinists throughout the doctrine's history.


You must not be very familiar with me. I've been debating Calvinism for a very very long time. Based on the point you've made about omniscience, I can guarantee that I understand Calvinism better than you do.

The notion that God knows everything in the sense you suggest is very debatable. That doctrine is based on and directly derived from the Aristotelian idea of Immutability, which is neither biblical nor rational. We can debate it if you like but it seems a bit too far off the topic of the thread to go into much detail here. Suffice it to say that God knows everything that is knowable that He wants to know. Going anything further than that requires going beyond the biblical evidence and introducing Pagan Greek philosophy.


Saying it doesn't make it so, PB. Prove it.


The post I engaged you on began with the statement, "I don't know why people freak out about the Calvinist doctrine." A statement which was then followed by typical Calvinistic statements concerning predestination. All of which was posted in a thread entitled, "Does Calvinism Make God Unjust?".

It's not a big intellectual challenge to conclude that you're a Calvinist, at least in one form or another. And even if that impression was given in error, you'd sill be wrong for the specific reasons I gave in my posts. I did not make naked assertions but made an argument, which you respond to with one-liners that effectively move the goal post which I then argue doesn't fix the problem which YOU articulated and which now you're attempting to distance yourself from. If you don't believe this stuff then why did you call everyone who disagrees with it an arrogant fool? You clearly do believe it, I'm just not as stupid as you'd hoped I'd be.

Resting in Him,
Clete

Excellent post Clete.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinism MUST change the character and intent of the God of the Bible in order to match their "belief system."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinists believe that God chose the "Elect" before the foundation of the world and thus He chose the non-Elect for eternal damnation. This was all done according to His "Sovereignty." Since God is NOT a respecter of men, He chose according to His will alone. Calvinism is both "Another gospel" and is enmeshed with false doctrine, as well.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinists see no free will in the Scriptures. My favorite verse to prove that humanity has a free will is, Matthew 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


How can one look at that verse and many others and NOT see the free will of mankind?

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

God didn't create humanity in the form of a puppet. Hyper-Calvinists go one step further and state that God is responsible for the sins we commit.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Calvinists stand guilty of misrepresentation and misinterpretation of the Scriptures.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

The "Calvinist god" is not the God that I see in the Holy Word of God. Their god is unrecognizable so far as I'm concerned.