Does 1 Timothy 2:11-14 justify the sceptic?

[Tambora]

I was talking about Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve :liberals:

Whoops I meant not talking about Adam and Paul.

Have you considered Tambora's post and my mention of 7 women prophetesses specially mentioned in the Bible. There were others but not specially called out. How does that square with your point? Is it possible you are viewing it with modern eyes?

Not only the prophetesses mentioned, but there was also a time when Israel had a queen (Athaliah) instead of a king (ie. a woman was ruling).

 

[God's Truth]

Indeed. I was only referring to the context of this thread.

The context of the thread is God's written Word, and no scripture can be put aside.

Why can no scripture be put aside? Because one would be putting the very words of God aside. You cannot do that.

Yes - though it is difficult in the current egalitarian milieu and church split.

All denominations are split. They all teach falseness and go against each other.
God's Truth, however, is in the written Word of God. There is a secret to understanding what that is. The secret is to obey what is written.

I don't go to church and I am not a believer.

Not going to church is good, and not being a believer may cause some problems in understanding the Truth.

 

[God's Truth]

I'm not dissing Paul, yet.

Okay that is good.

There is a general sense of women that cannot be ignored. Not all women are exactly the same, surely not a women before being saved and a women who has been given understanding from the Holy Spirit; however, there still is a general truth about women, and it must be considered.

It is something all must consider, from doctors to scientists, from athletics to physical differences, to emotions to our chemical makeup.

 

[God's Truth]

And yet is it necessary for a book - the bible - to be 100% accurate? One would think that one could be a believer without scripture as Abraham etc.

Abraham had God speaking to him directly.

We have the written Word of God.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Okay - this is very interesting. I can see your point a little clearer now. In the last clause, did you mean "such as no woman being over the man..."?

Paul's teaching was that the woman should not be over the man as a teacher or authority when it comes to God's commandments.

I said, " do not jump over that hierarchy without good reason, such as no man being over the woman (husband or father)."
In Leviticus 30, the discussion is about how a father can annul a vow made by a daughter living in his household and a husband can annul a vow made by his wife.

However, there are times when a woman will not have a father or a husband that has the authority to annul her vows.
These are the women I am referring to as having no man over them.

You think there are repercussions if the hierarchy is not observed - would you expound on that please? Any examples? The Anglican Church?

The Episcopalian church (American version of Anglican church) ordained women priests in 1974, and ordained the first openly gay bishop in 2003.
It is my belief that the openly gay man would never have been ordained as a bishop in that church if they had not set the stage for it by ordaining women as priests.

I don't know of any denomination that has ordained openly gay men and women as priests, bishops, and pastors without first ordaining women.

Marriage? Marriages where the husband no longer believes in Christ?

Paul stated that anyone married to a non-believer could divorce them. 1 Corinthians 7:12-16

If the wife believes and the husband does not believe, still the wife is not to assume she has scriptural authority or teaching over her husband or over other men.

 

[genuineoriginal]

This was your response to my:

"Assuming you go to Church, do the women follow Paul's sanctions? If not, do you cite him?"

But you say:
"Yes, I believe I addressed this by pointing out that there are other scriptures that support the hierarchy that has man as the head of the woman."

You subscribe to the hierarchical order (citing 1 Cor 11:3 but appear to diminish 1 Tim 2:11-14.

I believe 1 Timothy 2:11-14 was said as a practical application of the hierarchical order, not as something separate from it.

 

[genuineoriginal]

A friend of mine is a follower of Christ but he does not consider the bible authoritative.

Jesus considered the Bible (Old Testament) authoritative, so how can your friend claim to be a follower of Christ if your friend dismisses what Jesus profoundly believed in?

He has singled out this thread's OP scripture as particularly worthy of condemnation.

What other ways is your friend rebelling against God?

 

[God's Truth]

Not only the prophetesses mentioned, but there was also a time when Israel had a queen (Athaliah) instead of a king (ie. a woman was ruling).

Even though she was a wicked woman.

 

[Sonnet]

Jesus considered the Bible (Old Testament) authoritative, so how can your friend claim to be a follower of Christ if your friend dismisses what Jesus profoundly believed in?

You are trusting that scripture recorded exactly what occurred. He isn't.

What other ways is your friend rebelling against God?

It is an assumption to say he is rebelling isn't it?
I don't know enough about my friend to comment further.

 

[lifeisgood]

Even though she was a wicked woman.

Most male kings were wicked.
What's your point.

 

[Sonnet]

Abraham had God speaking to him directly.

We have the written Word of God.

Exactly - scripture is not the sine qua non of a Godly relationship.

 

[Sonnet]

If the wife believes and the husband does not believe, still the wife is not to assume she has scriptural authority or teaching over her husband or over other men.

Would you expound on this please?

 

[Sonnet]

If Paul did not err in his understanding of God's hierarchical order, then the world, especially the western world with it's focus on sexual equality, is in diametric opposition.

 

[Sonnet]

Paul's teaching was that the woman should not be over the man as a teacher or authority when it comes to God's commandments.

I said, " do not jump over that hierarchy without good reason, such as no man being over the woman (husband or father)."
In Leviticus 30, the discussion is about how a father can annul a vow made by a daughter living in his household and a husband can annul a vow made by his wife.

However, there are times when a woman will not have a father or a husband that has the authority to annul her vows.
These are the women I am referring to as having no man over them.

Interesting. Thanks.

The Episcopalian church (American version of Anglican church) ordained women priests in 1974, and ordained the first openly gay bishop in 2003.
It is my belief that the openly gay man would never have been ordained as a bishop in that church if they had not set the stage for it by ordaining women as priests.

Indeed - Gene Robinson I believe.

I don't know of any denomination that has ordained openly gay men and women as priests, bishops, and pastors without first ordaining women.

Ok.

Paul stated that anyone married to a non-believer could divorce them. 1 Corinthians 7:12-16

Indeed.

 

[genuineoriginal]

If Paul did not err in his understanding of God's hierarchical order, then the world, especially the western world with it's focus on sexual equality, is in diametric opposition.

Do you think this is the only way the western world is in diametric opposition to the teachings of the Bible?

 

[God's Truth]

Most male kings were wicked.
What's your point.

My point is she was a wicked woman. What is your point? If you want to teach unbelievers that women are acceptable as leaders, why chose a wicked woman as an example?

 

[God's Truth]

Exactly - scripture is not the sine qua non of a Godly relationship.

Scripture and the obedience to God is the way to a Godly relationship.

 

[God's Truth]

If Paul did not err in his understanding of God's hierarchical order, then the world, especially the western world with it's focus on sexual equality, is in diametric opposition.

You do not have understanding from God, so you do not know what you are speaking about.
Paul was speaking about women in GENERAL.

There are women that know the truth and are leaders and prophets.

 

[Sonnet]

Do you think this is the only way the western world is in diametric opposition to the teachings of the Bible?

No. The world would seem to be in opposition to many of the teachings.

 

[Sonnet]

You do not have understanding from God, so you do not know what you are speaking about.

That is very possible.

Paul was speaking about women in GENERAL.

There are women that know the truth and are leaders and prophets.

? You mean leaders of other women in the church?