ECT Do you see All, Some, None of the Spiritual Gifts in Operation Today?

[This Charming Manc]

If God raised dead guy through me I dont think id be to much up for a move to denver

If I have prayed for folks with TB and seem them healed do I get a car ?

Seriously I agree with with God rules arguement, that just because we haven seen one type of gift it doesnt mean the others aren't in operation, or that raising the dead is not possible.

It was not common in the book of acts, once or twice if I remember right.

I dont think thats somethign all belivers can demand to see, maybe this view is why i don't see it .... who knows.

All I know is that ive seen enough to belive the gifts are real and avialbale, and also that they have been missed used, faked and abused within pentecostal charismatic circles as well.

I am sure we wont agree, but we read the bible in very different ways.

Cessationism makes more sense from MAD perespective

Raise a dead guy, win yourself a free house. Think of how long you could get by communaly, since you claim that is how you live.

 

[rainee]

If faith, hope and love are the most important and we are supposed to have a love, a hope and a faith relationship with our Lord and God then who knows what God will do with or for any one of us?

That is all relationship material. Paul was not healed, we know that - and it was at a time when signs and wonders, and healings and raising from the dead were happening - even happening through Paul.

I remember when the Left Behind Series first came out.

I was looking forward to the Left Behind book cuz I like all sorts of stuff.
And being in a small Presby Church at the time kept everybody there pretty shielded and out of the loop.

But then I saw the book cover. " Seeing is believing," is what it said. Well, no, it said, "Sometimes seeing is believing."

How many times did Paul say something about seeing was not believing? How many?
Sometimes you don't know what the message means until you see the opposite.
Seeing is not believing. No, it's not.

IF any people hate God now, it seems in Revelation God will send signs with the two witnesses and what it will mean I guess is He is about to really give reasons for people to hate Him as He tears this world apart, if that is what they want to do..

But death and sickness have been in this world since Cain killed Abel.
And the real answer to them is not signs and wonders.

The Christ came He did signs and wonders to fulfill prophecy about Him.
The believers did as the Gospel spread, I think. Paul speaks negatively about some signs, imho.

But when someone says cessation was never declared I remember God kick started the covenant with Israel through Moses with many signs and wonders.
But He did not intend any of them to remain. In fact weren't the descendents given the task of Remembering - when not one of them ever saw any of these things? Faith.

And if when they came out of Egypt that was THE physical journey out of Darkness into Light, from Slavery to Freedom, from Death to Life and those signs and wonders had to stop - then why would the signs and wonders of THE Spiritual Transfer and journey of These continue? If Seeing is NOT Believing?

 

[JesusFan]

All healings /Miracles done today are due to God deciding to manifest His presense in a special fashion, extra ordinary, NOT the norm!

And NONE have gifts to do such in them , as the Apostles had from God!

Also, no additional revelation coming forth from God to his church today!

 

[Letsargue]

All healings /Miracles done today are due to God deciding to manifest His presense in a special fashion, extra ordinary, NOT the norm!

And NONE have gifts to do such in them , as the Apostles had from God!

Also, no additional revelation coming forth from God to his church today!

God manifesting Himself in WHAT!!! – MIRACLES!!!!
THERE ARE NO MIRACLES DONE IN ANY WAY, ANYWHERE, ANY TIME, BY ANYBODY, EVER!!!! – Except, “ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES”!! – Haven’t any of you geniuses ever heard that miracles are impossible to perform!!! – A Miracle is impossible!! – There are NONE!!! – Except as written in the “PARABLES”, ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES!!! – If you guys are SSOOOO smart, pick any miracle that you think has ever been done, and show me the “EVIDENCE” OF IT, THAT IS NOT WRITTEN IN THE SCRIPTURES!!!! --- Faith comes from hearing the Word, or the Truth. That’s what FAITH IS, so the only place that a miracle can have any “EVIDENCE” AT ALL IS THAT IT IS IN THE Word of God which is the FAITH, and “NOT SIGHT”. – Faith is the evidence of “THINGS” NOT SEEN!!!!! - A Miracle has never been SEEN because the ONLY PLACE that any has ever been done is in the Scriptures, according to the Scriptures!!! --- There cannot be any such thing as physical evidence of a Miracle ( PERIOD ) ---- And you all think you’re geniuses!!!!!

Paul – 033112

 

[Paulos]

I see none of the spiritual gifts in operation on this forum, that's for sure. You'd think someone around here would have the gift of prophecy at least, but no.

 

[godrulz]

I see none of the spiritual gifts in operation on this forum, that's for sure. You'd think someone around here would have the gift of prophecy at least, but no.

I prophesy that sozo and johnw and I will never agree on many things.

The bigger problem here is the lack of the fruit of the Spirit/character, not spiritual gifts which are intended for the corporate, church setting more than posts on the internet among individuals.

 

[andyc]

Cessationism makes more sense from MAD perespective

:thumb:

A very mad perspective.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Liar. False witness. Hypocrite. False Teacher.

I have slandered no one, you have slandered me.

Jesus said it is a wicked and idolatrous generation that seeks a sign and NONE will be given them except the sign of Jonah.

I do not see, and yet I believe.

My position is asking for evidence to test you, you FAIL.

People have a strange way of reading scripture.

Jesus said no sign would be given to the wicked and idolatorous generation....then He healed all who were sick.

Umm

It was after seeing the great miracles that Jesus did that the Pharibums came and asked for a sign. Obviously they were seeking a different kind of sign than healing and deliverance which only God can do.

We do not say see to believe but I can assure you that if you do not believe neither will you see.

God is so good and merciful to His wayward children...He does not want to stumble you, if you think that suddenly rotten trees have begun to bear good fruit or that Satan has somehow managed to bind the Holy Spirit and usurp His mercy and power it is best if you never do see a miracle.

It is best if they go on believing that sickness is God's will for them and continue to rebel against God's will by taking medicine.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Somebody said Paul was sick

I do not read anywhere that Paul was sick... ah the thorn in the flesh,

Wait a minute Paul tells us what the thorn was, a messenger of Satan who buffeted him, the shipwrecks, the beatings, the stonings, the hunger and thirsting, nakedness, peril, fears within and fears without.

Don't sound like a sick man to me it sounds like a man who is too strong and needs to be pounded and pommelled and broken and crushed so that instead of being proud and strong and arrogant [which Paul in his own nature was] he might become gentle and meek and as a nursing mother to her babes.

He begged God "can't you send this messenger to Cephas or James? how come they live in luxury with people putting money at their feet? leading wives around"

God said " I' gunna beat you to pulp, you are too strong, I need you to be weak so that My POWER can work through you, what you are going to produce will not be a blessing only to this generation but to every generation for thousands of years till I come"

Paul said "Uh O.k. God, I will rejoice in my weakness then so that Your power can be made perfect in me"

 

[Angel4Truth]

People have a strange way of reading scripture.

Jesus said no sign would be given to the wicked and idolatorous generation....then He healed all who were sick.

Umm

It was after seeing the great miracles that Jesus did that the Pharibums came and asked for a sign. Obviously they were seeking a different kind of sign than healing and deliverance which only God can do.

We do not say see to believe but I can assure you that if you do not believe neither will you see.

God is so good and merciful to His wayward children...He does not want to stumble you, if you think that suddenly rotten trees have begun to bear good fruit or that Satan has somehow managed to bind the Holy Spirit and usurp His mercy and power it is best if you never do see a miracle.

It is best if they go on believing that sickness is God's will for them and continue to rebel against God's will by taking medicine.

Was it Gods will that Paul suffer a 'thorn" in his flesh?

Do you think Timothy was rebelling against God by taking the advice of taking a little wine for his frequent infirmities of the stomach?

Did Timothy not have enough faith?

Was it Gods will that Timothy be sick so often?

 

[Letsargue]

I prophesy that sozo and johnw and I will never agree on many things.

The bigger problem here is the lack of the fruit of the Spirit/character, not spiritual gifts which are intended for the corporate, church setting more than posts on the internet among individuals.

Does it take a Prophet of God to say that!! - Who really expects to ever see a miracle anywhere!!

Paul -- 040212

 

[Totton Linnet]

Was it Gods will that Paul suffer a 'thorn" in his flesh?

Do you think Timothy was rebelling against God by taking the advice of taking a little wine for his frequent infirmities of the stomach?

Did Timothy not have enough faith?

Was it Gods will that Timothy be sick so often?

Yes you have found two gnats and one of them is a sorry one but the camel in the corner you overlook.....the page after page testimony that God is Healer.

What about ol' Epaphroditus? I think that is his name, he was sick....ah but God had mercy on him so that spoils your case....he was sick because he worked himself to a frazzle.

Then there is Job.....the greatest wealth and health preacher in the whole bible.

The devil will give you 10,000 reasons why God does not heal, God only gives one. It is His will to heal.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Was it Gods will that Paul suffer a 'thorn" in his flesh?

Do you think Timothy was rebelling against God by taking the advice of taking a little wine for his frequent infirmities of the stomach?

Did Timothy not have enough faith?

Was it Gods will that Timothy be sick so often?

Oh yes Timmy had a little tummy ache....no need to worry a little wine will do the trick.

I did not say that taking medicine was rebellion to one who believes in healing...but if one believes that their sickness is from God, they should bear that sickness patiently as a gift of love to teach them humility or whatever it is.

What nonsense people are prepared to believe.

Listen I ain't going to wrangle with this if you want to believe as you do it is your affair. I believe "Jesus Christ the same, yesterday and today and forever."

God didn't change, the church changed.

 

[rainee]

This is where all hearts belong to God.
If we are human we are frail and if we are frail we hope God is good and is love. Thank you Lord that You are good and You are love.

Maybe the church has changed. For the less.
I don't know.
Paul did have a beloved physician travel with him which may imply Timothy's first duty was to care for a frail ferocious spirited Apostle who was burning his candle at both ends? I don't know. And Paul did ask The Lord to remove whatever was plaguing him? Did he ask three times? Then something is proven to me there. He knew God does heal.
He wouldn't have asked otherwise. But the Lord did not. At least not then. He is going to heal all of us and get rid of death and He is going to make up for every tear, right?
But it is true till then The Bible says anoint and have the elders pray.
Because God heals.

 

[rainee]

Raise a dead guy, win yourself a free house. Think of how long you could get by communaly, since you claim that is how you live.

You are presenting the problem, Nick.
As a believer you are setting up a boundary you think will never be be crossed.

So if it is crossed by the devil will you worship the beast?
In spite of Tot talking about if you believe you will see, which I have to think and pray about,
you are saying IF you see you will believe. (Though perhaps you think you do not believe that?)

We must test the spirits. We must figure out what we will use to test.
Is raising the dead going to do it for you?

Jesus raised the dead and they killed Him.
Why not hold that in mind?
Raising the dead is not going to do it then.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Yes you have found two gnats and one of them is a sorry one but the camel in the corner you overlook.....the page after page testimony that God is Healer.

What about ol' Epaphroditus? I think that is his name, he was sick....ah but God had mercy on him so that spoils your case....he was sick because he worked himself to a frazzle.

Then there is Job.....the greatest wealth and health preacher in the whole bible.

The devil will give you 10,000 reasons why God does not heal, God only gives one. It is His will to heal.

Job is a health and wealth preacher? Since when?

Epaphroditus recovered by resting.

Neither case shows a miraculous healing of a limb or raising the dead.

You also made the claim that God heals ALL the sick - then when you are given examples, you claim those are nothing more then gnats????

Obviously God does not heal all the sick, or Paul would have been healed and Timothy wouldnt need medicine.

You also claimed if one takes medicine for anything they do not trust God.

Show us how Timothy didn't trust God since he was using wine as medicine and how Paul didn't trust God since he suggested the medicine.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Oh yes Timmy had a little tummy ache....no need to worry a little wine will do the trick.

Frequent infirmaries and a little tummy ache is about the difference between a slight pain in your side and appendicitis.

Its easier to make light of something in Gods word though than to admit your own error?

I did not say that taking medicine was rebellion to one who believes in healing...but if one believes that their sickness is from God, they should bear that sickness patiently as a gift of love to teach them humility or whatever it is.

Thats not true. You said if one uses medicine- that they do not trust God. Now youve changed it to "only those who believe in faith healing are not in rebellion when THEY use medicine".

Her is a reminder of a couple things you said:

... He healed all who were sick....

It is best if they go on believing that sickness is God's will for them and continue to rebel against God's will by taking medicine.

Show me in scripture where it says anything remotely to that effect.

What nonsense people are prepared to believe.

Yes, what you said is a perfect example of that.

Listen I ain't going to wrangle with this if you want to believe as you do it is your affair. I believe "Jesus Christ the same, yesterday and today and forever."

God didn't change, the church changed.

What you are telling me is not consistent with scripture. So yes, ill believe what i do already since you havent shown me anything biblical to make it in my best interests to change my thoughts on it.

 

[Totton Linnet]

Job is a health and wealth preacher? Since when?

Epaphroditus recovered by resting.

Neither case shows a miraculous healing of a limb or raising the dead.

You also made the claim that God heals ALL the sick - then when you are given examples, you claim those are nothing more then gnats????

Obviously God does not heal all the sick, or Paul would have been healed and Timothy wouldnt need medicine.

You also claimed if one takes medicine for anything they do not trust God.

Show us how Timothy didn't trust God since he was using wine as medicine and how Paul didn't trust God since he suggested the medicine.

*
Paul said God had mercy on ol' 'Paphy and upon Paul himself by restoring him to Paul.

I said no such thing, I take medicine, quite obviously Timmy's tummy trouble was something which wine remedied, God provides wine and He provides other remedies so all healing whether direct or indirect come from Him.

What I DID say is that if you have swallowed the devil's line that God has sent sickness to you then you should not try to alleviate it through medicine...that would be to rebel against God who you suppose has sent the sickness. See how the devil has gotten you so hooked that you not only strain and wrangle scriptures but my words too.

Sure Job is the greatest health and wealth preacher in the bible...read the book, see how that while God hedged him around he was the most prosperous man in all the earth, when God removed His hedge Satan [oh... it was the devil] was able to smote Job with boils.

People believes such lies, for the devil teaches them that God was trying to teach Job not to be self righteous.

Job was not self righteous for God Himself declared "have you seen Job how that there is none like him in all the earth who loves God and escheweth evil?"

Satan sneered "He only loves You because You hedge him about with blessings...it is the blessings Job loves"

That was the test...do we love God to be blest? or are we blest because we love God?" it was a test of Job's faith and integrity and he came through with flying colours for God rebuked his accusers and said "you have not spoken what is right about Me as My servant Job has"

Then God blessed Job TWICE as much as he was blessed before.

Job PROVES that if we love God He will put an hedge about us, he PROVED it is Satan who is the sole architect of ALL man's sorrow and woe.

You say God allowed it and I say in kindness my friend that if God is ever able to say of YOU or ME "she is perfect" He may allow us to be so tested.

James says we must learn from Job's patience WHAT? that God is kind and compassionate, that is the lesson of Job.

I will tell you something, in kindness I say it.

God is fed up with His children putting bitter for sweet, for saying evil is good. For blaming God for what the devil does.

If you want to know what God's will is in any matter LOOK, LOOK TO JESUS. He is the full expression of what God's will is, there will never be a greater expression...and He healed EVERY SINGLE person who came to Him with faith.

If He has not changed then who has? if you can believe that Christ ever sent a sinner away unforgiven who came to Him sincerely and in truth the you can believe he will send the sick one away who comes believing.

Unbelief will get you stitch. Unbelief is the only barrier for God insists upon faith WHY? because people may otherwise worry whether their healing or whatever blessing truly came from God.....when it comes through faith in Jesus you are certain. From this you can understand why so many are sick and who die before their years are up.

But the church is not set up to minister this blessing it is a function of the body of Christ [not some white suited televangelist] it must come from the congregation and the gifts are LOCKED UP in the congregation who only go to listen to the pastor's sermon and sing a few hymns.

This message would require a new reformation, this time of the ministry, to implement.

 

[rainee]

Tot,
In so many ways this is a fantastic post.
I would rep it but can't yet.
But I would also like to interact with it - faith to faith - if that is allowed?
I hope so.

I have tried to understand how something like sickness works.

For me, and I could be wrong,
a certain amount has to happen because we are living before the last enemy is dealt with.
We are living in a creation that moans and groans until something good happens..
So theoretically that seems to be the boat humans and all creatures are in.

Next is Job and what that account reveals - or does not explain - since both are true.

Imo, this account makes even the curse in the garden not look like God's will but more like a built in consequence because God is perfect or there are rules or something, I dunno.

Some have said the devil was disappointed that he did not successfully wipe out mankind all together with all of that, as if he did not really understand the rules so well after all.

And then there is this:
Luke 17:1-3
1 He said to His disciples, “It is inevitable that stumbling blocks come, but woe to him through whom they come!
2 It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were thrown into the sea, than that he would cause one of these little ones to stumble.
3 Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.

Now I don't want to put number three up there but felt I had to.
However, the message I am working with is Luke repeating The Lord about stumbling blocks. They do not sound like God's will there.

But on the other side of the coin there are verses that say God, like our human father, does use things to discipline us. I don't want to look them up. But we admit they exist right? Whatever they really mean, I dunno.
And lastly since Paul said something about God's grace being sufficient for him - may I say Paul was not being disciplined nor was it contrary to God's will for him to have the thorn in the flesh, whatever that thorn was... Because Paul really had surpassingly great visions. He was out of our ballpark because of them. He would have been the helium balloon looking down on the rest of us - trying to tell us things.
But I wonder if this unfortunate thing didn't help him not be that way.
Where he no longer lived by faith like we do in some things - he lived by grace like we do and had to keep his faith in that, like we do.

And post script to all this - sickness/ healing is such a personal
thing should it be listed here as part of the spiritual gifts being debated?

*

see post

 

[Totton Linnet]

Dear Rainee

First we have to be honest and hold up our hands and say we do not have all the answers, none of us has complete knowledge and wisdom, I say in reference to me not to you.

I do have some.

It is impossible to recieve anything from God except through faith, God demands faith. You have to KNOW what God's will is in a matter before you can genuinely have faith. The gospel is the revelation of God's will. If we come to God upon any other basis we are on sandy soil. This is for our protection, if we come in faith to God's revealed will we can be assured in our souls that what we asked for in Jesu's name is the thing we recieved. We will never worry that perhaps we recieved from another source.

There are 2 revelations of God's will for man, 1 is the garden, there was no sickness or disease in the garden of Eden, no sorrow, no pain or poverty. That is God's will for man when He created him.
The second revelation of God's will for man is even greater and more excellent. It is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the express image of the invisible God, He said "I came not to do Mine own will but the will of Him that sent Me."

All that Jesus did then is God's will for man. It is revealed, there is no need to question it.

Jesus healed EVERY single one who presented himself with faith, nobody was ever turned away. Matthew says "this was to fulfil what was spoken by Isaiah the prophet "Himself bore our diseases and carried our sicknesses" This links healing just as firmly to the atonement that Jesus made for us on the cross as forgiveness. It is impossible to say that "Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree..." is the infallible word of God but that "Himself bore our diseases and carried our sicknesses" is not also the infallible word of God.

Either God's word is infallible...ALL of it or it is not, if you cannot be certain that He bore our sicknesses then neither can you be sure that He bare our sins. To deny it therefore is to reject the infallibility of God's word.

But preachers do not preach it or they preach it uncertainly, Isaiah said "surely" but preachers are not sure. They do not preach with faith so people cannot recieve with faith. People are kept wavering, tossed about upon the waves of human reasoning [I was about to say the devil's deception] Preacher are CERTAIN that He bore our sin, there is never a dispute about that.

This truth has to be birthed in us.

Someone will say but people get sick, I will say christians also fall into sin, it is not God's will that we backslide into sin, it is not God's will that we succomb to sickness.

I do not accept that Paul's thorn in the flesh was sickness. see my earlier response.