William, my point is that i stated that God forgives even sins of rebellion and persistent sins in the believer. i made the point that you ignored that and changed the subject , stating that only UNBELIEF is able to sever the connection to God. i assumed that was your sneaky way of conceding my point. i guessed wrong it seems. so do you firmly believe that God will not forive the persistent sins and acts of rebellion of a christian if those remain unconfessed?
Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door
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dreadknought
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Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
:thumb: Acts 26:17-18 17 "rescuing you from the Jewish people and from the Gentiles, to whom I am sending you, 18 to open their eyes so that they may turn from darkness to light and from the dominion of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who have been sanctified by faith in Me."
Jerry Shugart
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You are quite correct and let us put in "Christians" in the place of those words:
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).
If Christisans confess our sins, He is faithful anf just to forgive us our (Christian's) sins, and to cleanse us (Christians) from all unrighteousness.
That is exactly what I am argiung in the debate. In my first post in this debate I said:
In His grace,
Jerry
Da'Saint
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No Jerry, these verses are clearly given to Christians!!
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you that ye may not sin. And if any man sin, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jo 2:2 and he is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.
1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, my little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
Notice how the christians sins have been forgiven! AND IT IS NOT FOR THE SAKE OF YOUR CONFESSION!! :nono:
Da'Saint
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John 8:12 ¶ Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. :chuckle:
Door
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Sure Jerry, I can take words out of the Bible and add my own and make it say something different. Do you want us to give you a cookie for that?
The "we" is John, and those with John. John is a Christian. Yet, John tells those who he is writing, that if he says he has no sin, he would be a liar, and that would be evidence that he should not be believed, and that he is not in fellowship, and that he is not in the light. If he was to confess (say along with God) that he has sin, then just like for them Jesus is the One who is faithful and just to forgive and to cleanse from all unrighteousness.
Jerry, we know that myself, Stp, voltaire, JCWR, stdx, and DA'Saint, are all Christians, and we are all witnesses of the deity of Christ. If I write you a letter about the Mormons who deny that Jesus is God, and I say to you...
We are witnesses of Christ's deity, and we proclaim to you, so that you may fellowship with us (since you also affirm Christ's deity).
If we say we have fellowship with God, and yet we deny His deity, we are liars, and the truth is not in us.
See Jerry, a Christian can tell another Christian to test them to see if they are telling the truth or not, by what they believe. Yet, a Christian said it, even though he was defining a non-Christian and what he might say.
Get it?
No, I'm sure you do not.
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Door
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Jerry... Is Paul a Christian when he says...
"But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed."
Paul is a Christian speaking to other Christians telling them not to listen to someone who is preaching a false gospel, and if they do (he includes himself), let that person be accursed (doomed to destruction).
See Christians can speak in such a way as to refer to themselves as someone who is not saved if they say certain things.
"But even though we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed."
Paul is a Christian speaking to other Christians telling them not to listen to someone who is preaching a false gospel, and if they do (he includes himself), let that person be accursed (doomed to destruction).
See Christians can speak in such a way as to refer to themselves as someone who is not saved if they say certain things.
Jerry will never understand that john is speaking of him and his fellow workers hypothetically in order to make a point to his confused christian audience. people like him need their confession like an alcoholic needs his drink. they need it in order to feel like he is in fellowship with God. He wont believe God will fellowship with him no matter what
Door
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Jerry Shugart
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Door, the words that I am adding are words which represent the meaning of 'we," "our" and 'us."
You agree with this when you said:
John is telling the Christians something at verse 9. I have used the KJV translation and by that translation the meaning is simple:
If Christisans confess our sins, He is faithful anf just to forgive us our (Christian's) sins, and to cleanse us (Christians) from all unrighteousness.
No one can argue with that if the words in question (we, our, and us) refer to Christians and the KV translation is correct.
Now here is my challenge to you. The words of John at verse 9 must mean something. Evidently you do not think that the KJV trasnslation is correct or else you wojuld have to agree that John is telling Christians to confess their sins and in return the Lord will cleanse them from those sins.
So tell me, Door, how should 1 John 1:9 be worded?
In His grace,
Jerry
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
What is significant is that at verse nine John wrote words to express one of his thoughts.
The words in verse 9 mean something. If the KJV traslation is correct, and if the words (we, us and ours) refer to Christians then the following is the thought that John expressed at verse 9:
If Christisans confess our sins, He is faithful anf just to forgive us our (Christian's) sins, and to cleanse us (Christians) from all unrighteousness.
Since you obviously do not bdelieve that that accurately express John's thoughts then what were his thoughts?
How should verse 9 be correctly translated?
In His grace,
Jerry
It is translated correctly jerry. we, our, and us are referring to the same people as the we , our and us of verses 1 and 2. the we, our and us were there at the beginning. they heard, saw with their own eyes, and touched with their hands the word of life- Jesus. This same group of people are talked about in verse 9. to make it crystal clear, lets call them the live crew and arrange the verse grammatically to allow for a proper noun just for clarity: if the live crew confesses their sins, God if faithful and just to forgive them their sins and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness.
now if johns audience is thoroughly convinced that the live crew is saved and is walking in the light and has the truth in them then i concede the argument to you. but, if they are not certain that the live crew has has the truth in them, then your case does not stand.
now if johns audience is thoroughly convinced that the live crew is saved and is walking in the light and has the truth in them then i concede the argument to you. but, if they are not certain that the live crew has has the truth in them, then your case does not stand.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
OK, add that to our shared opinion that the words "we," "ours," and "us" are referring to Christians and there is only one possible meaning for verse 9:
If Christisans confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our (Christian's) sins, and to cleanse us (Christians) from all unrighteousness.
Sorry, Door, you lose the debate. Better luck next time.
Door
New member
:rotfl:
You, and your little friend, who skipped town, are the only ones who think so.
No, Jerry, delude yourself all you want, but voltaire just destroyed your argument, and you are too stupid to realize it.
You ignored all my posts that proved you wrong, and like a broken record, have done nothing more than stick your fingers in your ears going la-la-la-la-la ad nauseum.
When John was speaking to believers about unbelievers, he had morons like you in mind.
:loser:
We are not far off (I don't believe exactly what you think I do).
I would say Church discipline is a lost art and part of the problem with divisive, anemic Christians ruling the roost instead of being kicked out of the nest (for gross sin). Paul said to kick some of the gross sinners out, while he merely rebuked or corrected other sins without the heavy hand of disfellowshipping. Sin is sin with the same wages, but there is a difference in degree. Anger is likened to murder and lust to adultery, but the consequences are different (Jesus was not using an identical equivalent, but getting beyond the legalism of Pharisees to the heart of the matter).
Are we being civil, or what?! Ban that, Mr. Mod
Jesus judged and discerned correctly based on wisdom and truth. My beef is not with judging, but with wrong judgments by imperfect, immature people (which Jesus was not). Mature, godly, correct judgments and wrath are welcome, but not ones based on error or misunderstanding.
Truth vs lie, not to judge or not. Legit vs illegit...
To be, or not to be, that is the ?
Sometimes I skip over posts quickly, so don't mind me. My wife knows I can barely remember 5 minutes ago at times (sleep/stress issues).
Yes, God forgives believer's sins. If one is a godless unbeliever, then they are not a believer, so it is a different issue. God does not forgive unbelievers of their unbelief while they persist in it (hence the call to repentant faith as a condition of becoming a believer).
I am not like Jesse M. I do not think persistent sin in a believer will send them to hell if they are a believer, not a godless unbeliever through apostasy and falling away.
It is only practically unpardonable if one dies in a state of rejecting Christ and His work (whether one once believed or not). The hyper-Arminian insecurity questions of whether one would be raptured if He came back while you are in a bar are legalistic in nature. These people need to hear about the security and assurance of grace for a believer. Those who reject Christ for atheism or Satanism, etc. do NOT need to be told they are OSAS because of a past profession that is no longer true. They need to be told to return to the fold lest they risk the slippery slope that will cut one off from Christ in the end (defiant renunciation against great light, not just a doubt or slip or circumstantial struggle...talk extremes before a bunch of 'what if' scenarios that God will judge righteously).
Jerry, this post merits an answer from your perspective (he may have a point, weak as it is).
In my mind, each context must be evaluated on its own merits, since words/phrases can be used differently (range of meanings) depending on the context.
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