Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[Jerry Shugart]

Written to believers as a whole concerning doctrine corrections!

This verse is clearly giving instructions to Christians:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

The words of John here are not in regard to doctrinal correction but instead is an instruction given by John to other Christians.

He is telling them that this is the way that they become christians!!

That is ridiculous. A sinner becomes a Christian by believing the gospel and not by confessing their sins.

If I shall live by faith!
Faith becomes effective by the acknowledgement of all the good things that are in me in Christ!
Wouldn't confession and dwelling on my short comings be the opposite of faith?

Yes, and that makes my point. Confessing one's sin and short comings do not save anyone. Before a sinner can be saved and become a Christian he must believe the gospel.

In His grace,
Jerry

 

[voltaire]

BINGO! student ad x is right. dwelling on shortcomings or introspectively looking for sins is the opposite of faith. coins are pouring out of the slot machine.

 

[Door]

This verse is clearly giving instructions to Christians:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

No, it isn't clear. because it is not true.

One easy question...

Does Jesus cleanse us from sin if we walk in the light or by confessing them?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

John is writing to believers about unbelievers who say they have no sin (verse 8).

You again must throw your reason to the wind in order to say such a thing.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

The words "we" and "our" and "us" MUST refer to Christians. John is a Christian and he is addessing Christians (1 Jn.2:12). Therefore the words "we" and "our" and "us" must be in reference to Christians.

You expect others to believe what you say even though your interpretaion of this verse violates all of the rules of basic grammar.

 

[Door]

BINGO! student ad x is right. dwelling on shortcomings or introspectively looking for sins is the opposite of faith. coins are pouring out of the slot machine.

:chuckle:

And Jerry is bankrupt.

 

[godrulz]

I stand with the MAD that says that the Jewish epistles apply to the Body of Christ. That is the sme teaching espoused by the great Mid Acts teachers of the past, including Sir Robert Anderson, Charles Baker, J.C. O'Hair and Cornelius Stam.

In His grace,
Jerry

Even the other MAD says some things apply by way of principle, just like the OT can apply to believers.

Would you disagree that they were only directed at the circumcision? In your view, are they directed at the Body of Christ as much as Paul's writings or what is the distinction? Your MAD is not as RAD, so of more interest to me. What is the big issue? One of my bigger concerns with STP's MAD is that it does not see the unity of the NT and consistency of Johannine and Pauline thought.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Saul to Paul would dismiss I Jn. as non-Church truth?

Absolutely, the cleansing from all unrighteousness is Zec 13:1 KJV
at the 2nd coming.

But, they are having a non MAD discussion, so I'm trying to stay
out of it as much as I can...

 

[godrulz]

BINGO! student ad x is right. dwelling on shortcomings or introspectively looking for sins is the opposite of faith. coins are pouring out of the slot machine.

There is a difference between pseudo-guilt and introspection and willfully sinning (adultery, for e.g.) and the rightful conviction of the HOLY Spirit through His Word to bring us freedom from sin for our good and the glory of God.

 

[godrulz]

Absolutely, the cleansing from all unrighteousness is Zec 13:1 KJV
at the 2nd coming.

But, they are having a non MAD discussion, so I'm trying to stay
out of it as much as I can...

Thx. Just trying to understand the various MAD views. If I were to become MAD, I would be more comfortable with Sir Anderson than Bullinger (ultradispy).

Are you confusing issues relating to national Israel with issues relating to individual salvation after the cross?:help:

 

[voltaire]

The question is this jerry: is john telling christians that they will be forgiven of future sins by confession? or is he giving them a doctrinal statement on how sins are forgiven when they became christians? you can only be forgiven of a particular sin once. a christian has all future sins forgiven already. why would john be telling them how to be forgiven of sins that have already been forgiven?

 

[Door]

You again must throw your reason to the wind in order to say such a thing.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

The words "we" and "our" and "us" MUST refer to Christians. John is a Christian and he is addessing Christians (1 Jn.2:12). Therefore the words "we" and "our" and "us" must be in reference to Christians.

The "we" and "our" and "us" are Christians, Jerome.

The verses should be plain enough, but I will explain it to you again for the upteenth time...

In this same letter John writes... "

"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; and this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world."

John starts off his letter confirming that he is someone who is a witness of the fact that Jeus has indeed come in the flesh. John is simply telling those whom he is writing that they need to put to the test what someone says.

The "we" does not include those to whom he is writing. If it was, then the "we" would also mean that those who he is writing to were also witnesses of the risen Christ whom they had touched. The "we" is John and those who touched, saw, and handled the Lord Jesus. When John uses the words "we" walk in the light, he is speaking of himself and those who were witnesses directly, but his point to those whom he is writing is to test anyone who says they are walking in the light or says they have fellowship. "If we say that we have fellowship, and yet walk in darkness, we lie...". The reason that John is telling them to beware of what people say, is because they had already been deceived by those who were walking in the darkness and had denied that Jesus had come in the flesh.

The text is simple, but you are so obsessed with your flesh, and with sin, that you have no faith in Christ.

 

[voltaire]

you just confirmed what i said godrulz, although you dont realize it. it is the HOLZ SPIRIT that convicts. we dont go looking for sins to confess so that we can remain in fellowship.

 

[godrulz]

The question is this jerry: is john telling christians that they will be forgiven of future sins by confession? or is he giving them a doctrinal statement on how sins are forgiven when they became christians? you can only be forgiven of a particular sin once. a christian has all future sins forgiven already. why would john be telling them how to be forgiven of sins that have already been forgiven?

You are begging the question by assuming non-existent sins are forgiven in advance (what if those possible sins are never actualized, so they do not need forgiving?) or while persisted in. Just because past sins are forgiven does not preclude the possibility of sinning again in the same way (hence 70x7). In your view, there is no logical reason to cease sinning since one is viewed identically by a holy God (God is not mocked and the NT does not teach forgiveness while persisting in blatant rebellion and sin; the Holy Spirit convicts; Paul commands, etc.).

 

[godrulz]

you just confirmed what i said godrulz, although you dont realize it. it is the HOLZ SPIRIT that convicts. we dont go looking for sins to confess so that we can remain in fellowship.

In your view, the Holy Spirit would never convict a Christian who is sinning, because they are already forgiven?!

If one is not sinning, there is no conviction nor need for it. If one is sinning....?

 

[Door]

You are begging the question by assuming non-existent sins are forgiven in advance (what if those possible sins are never actualized, so they do not need forgiving?) or while persisted in. Just because past sins are forgiven does not preclude the possibility of sinning again in the same way (hence 70x7). In your view, there is no logical reason to cease sinning since one is viewed identically by a holy God (God is not mocked and the NT does not teach forgiveness while persisting in blatant rebellion and sin; the Holy Spirit convicts; Paul commands, etc.).

William, the issue is not that God knows all the sins that will ever happen, but that He has accepted His Son's sacrifice as sufficient to satisfy (propitiate) His justice for all of them. It's like shooting spit wads at a 40 ft solid thick steel wall thinking that you can penetrate it.

 

[Door]

In your view, the Holy Spirit would never convict a Christian who is sinning, because they are already forgiven?!

If one is not sinning, there is no conviction nor need for it. If one is sinning....?

The Holy Spirit does not convict Christians of sinning. He only convicts those in the world who do not believe in Jesus that they are sinners. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our righteousness in Christ.

 

[voltaire]

yes godrulz, the NT does teach that ALL sins of the christian are forgiven,past , present, and future and even if they are commited in rebellion or persistently. if all sins were not forgiven, then there will be christians in hell who were in rebellion and practiced habitual sin before they died despite the fact that they were trusting in Christ to forgive them of those sins.
i dont deliberately sin because i have no desire to displease or hurt God. It certainly isnt because i fear hell for practing habitual sin.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

The "we" and "our" and "us" are Christians, Jerome.

The man finally got something right! Give the man a hand!

The "we" does not include those to whom he is writing. If it was, then the "we" would also mean that those who he is writing to were also witnesses of the risen Christ whom they had touched. The "we" is John and those who touched, saw, and handled the Lord Jesus.

Even if you are right John is saying that he must confess his sins in order top have those sins cleansed:

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 Jn.1:9).​

Are you saying that only those Christians who saw and heard the Lord Jesus are to confess their sins but other Christians are not?

I cannot understand what point that you are trying to make.

 

[Door]

The man finally got something right! Give the man a hand!

I've said that from the very beginning. In fact, I've never said otherwise in 25 years.

 

[Door]

I cannot understand what point that you are trying to make.

The man finally got something right! Give the man a hand! :BRAVO: