Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

[godrulz]

William, the issue is not that God knows all the sins that will ever happen, but that He has accepted His Son's sacrifice as sufficient to satisfy (propitiate) His justice for all of them. It's like shooting spit wads at a 40 ft solid thick steel wall thinking that you can penetrate it.

There is perfect provision for all past, present, future sins. It is a once-for-all sacrifice. No further provision is needed besides this objective reality.

However, there is a subjective appropriation of this provision since all are not saved (universalism) just because He died. There are wise conditions and ways to deal with sin in the unbeliever and believer.

Excuse me for living, but I cannot defend cleansing from sin while it is defiantly persisted in. This would undermine God's character and law and harm us and others.

 

[godrulz]

yes godrulz, the NT does teach that ALL sins of the christian are forgiven,past , present, and future and even if they are commited in rebellion or persistently. if all sins were not forgiven, then there will be christians in hell who were in rebellion and practiced habitual sin before they died despite the fact that they were trusting in Christ to forgive them of those sins.
i dont deliberately sin because i have no desire to displease or hurt God. It certainly isnt because i fear hell for practing habitual sin.

I am my own vices. Again, UNBELIEF is the only sin that threatens our connection to God. It is the antithesis of saving faith. There are pastors and pew dwellers addicted to porn, a sin. This will not send them to hell, but denying the person and work of Christ would (atheism; Satanism, etc.).

 

[godrulz]

The man finally got something right! Give the man a hand! :BRAVO:

Since there is no checkmate in sight, how about a stalemate and closing the debate so we can get on with our lives? (i.e. I'm right, you are wrong..you can both believe that in your little worlds).

 

[voltaire]

I have been convicted of my actions that are unpleasing to God that previously i had not given a moments thought. i then realize that either i had a poor attitude or that what i was doing was just plain rotten. that was the Holy Spirit convcting me. i was forgiven of those sins when i became a christian. i didnt need to be forgiven again and so i did NOT CONFESS them! did i continue the previous attitude i had? NO. i had no desire to. there was no trying to stop involved. i was completely ashamed and i wanted no more part of it. all of this was completely natural to me. i didnt force my self to do any of it.

 

[Door]

Excuse me for living, but I cannot defend cleansing from sin while it is defiantly persisted in. This would undermine God's character and law and harm us and others.

William...

A Pastor is committing adultery

Another Pastor is impatient

Which Pastor is out of fellowship?

 

[godrulz]

The Holy Spirit does not convict Christians of sinning. He only convicts those in the world who do not believe in Jesus that they are sinners. The Holy Spirit convicts us of our righteousness in Christ.

The Holy Spirit convicts sinners of their unbelief. If a Christian is fornicating, I expect that He would put His holy finger on that sinful choice for the sake of truth and the believer.

 

[godrulz]

William...

A Pastor is committing adultery

Another Pastor is impatient

Which Pastor is out of fellowship?

Adulterer is in bigger doo doo.

 

[Door]

The Holy Spirit convicts sinners of their unbelief. If a Christian is fornicating, I expect that He would put His holy finger on that sinful choice for the sake of truth and the believer.

No, William, that is the point, the Holy Spirit is not convicting the one of fornicating of sin, he is convicting him of who he is in Christ, thus removing all reasons for fornicating.

 

[Door]

Adulterer is in bigger doo doo.

So the idea that all sin is sin, is foreign to your theology?

 

[voltaire]

william, when i showed you that you were wrong concerning the forgiveness of rebellion and habitual sin, why didnt you admit you were wrong? instead you changed the subject and stated that UNBELIEF is the only sin that seperates the connection to God. Why did you change the subject instead of admit you were wrong?

 

[godrulz]

No, William, that is the point, the Holy Spirit is not convicting the one of fornicating of sin, he is convicting him of who he is in Christ, thus removing all reasons for fornicating.

The Bible, God's revelation, is full of reasons why to not fornicate. God sends prophets, His Word, and His Spirit to stand against sin in those who claim to follow Him (Israel/Church). Despite this, some persist in sin. There is no excuse. Some sear their conscience or grieve the Spirit or disobey the Word. Without the work of the Spirit, there is less reason to forsake sin. A holy God does not tolerate sin in the camp. I am not sure why you do not see this as a legit work of the Spirit? To not deal with sin is to condone it. This is not optional on the part of believers. There are consequences for persisting in sin, which is far more likely if you believe we are automatically, unconditionally forgiven in advance regardless of our actual practice.

 

[godrulz]

So the idea that all sin is sin, is foreign to your theology?

Sin is sin, but the consequences to involved lives is greater with ongoing adultery vs impatience waiting for the iPhone 3G.

 

[Door]

The Bible, God's revelation, is full of reasons why to not fornicate. God sends prophets, His Word, and His Spirit to stand against sin in those who claim to follow Him (Israel/Church). Despite this, some persist in sin. There is no excuse. Some sear their conscience or grieve the Spirit or disobey the Word. Without the work of the Spirit, there is less reason to forsake sin. A holy God does not tolerate sin in the camp. I am not sure why you do not see this as a legit work of the Spirit? To not deal with sin is to condone it. This is not optional on the part of believers. There are consequences for persisting in sin, which is far more likely if you believe we are automatically, unconditionally forgiven in advance regardless of our actual practice.

You have a wicked evil god, William. Similar to the Calvinist God, only yours doesn't force you to sin, He just beats you when you do.

There is nothing to support your wicked god. I have the entire NT to support mine.

God was so intolerant of sin, that He sent His Son Jesus (ever heard of Him) to die for all the sins of all men for all time. That's right William, Jesus was beaten, spat upon, stripped of His clothes, mocked by men of your character, pierced, and hung on a cross to die.

But, that was not good enough for YOU. YOU want God to pay special attention to all those people who YOU are better than, and to make sure that God punishes them for their (as you put it) "Big doo doo" sins, while you and your little sins are exempt.

You and your worthless, self-righteous, theology makes me sick. :vomit:

 

[godrulz]

william, when i showed you that you were wrong concerning the forgiveness of rebellion and habitual sin, why didnt you admit you were wrong? instead you changed the subject and stated that UNBELIEF is the only sin that seperates the connection to God. Why did you change the subject instead of admit you were wrong?

I don't see your point. Your assumption that you are right is subjective.

Tyndale NT Commentary (John Stott):

I Jn. 1:9 (for all)

"The proper Christian attitude to sin is not to deny it but to admit it and so to receive the forgiveness which God has made possible and promises to us. IF we confess our sins, acknowledging before God that we are sinners not only by nature (sin) but by practice also (our sins), God will both forgive us our sins and....cleanse us....In the first phrase sin is a debt which He remits and in the second a stain which He removes....Jer. 31:34...The Judge of all the earth cannot lightly remit sin....

This forgiveness and cleansing, issuing from the faithfulness and justice of God, are conditional upon confession. There are many warnings in Scripture about the danger of concealing our sins, and many promises of blessing if we confess them. Moreover, what is required is not general confession of sin but a particular confession of sins, as we deliberately call them to mind, confess and forsake them (cf. Ps. 32:1-5; Prov. 28:13)."

The next section shows another heresy relating to sin: the denial that sin shows itself in our conduct (in addition to the previous denials that sin breaks our fellowship with God and a denial that sin exists in our nature).

I do not agree with everything, and unless we read all of his pages and comments, we should be slow to jump to conclusions (I throw it out for discussion, not division).

Many commentators agree more with Jerry and I do not think that this is proof that some of the most prominent names in Christianity are going to hell because they disagree with Door.

 

[godrulz]

You have a wicked evil god, William. Similar to the Calvinist God, only yours doesn't force you to sin, He just beats you when you do.

There is nothing to support your wicked god. I have the entire NT to support mine.

God was so intolerant of sin, that He sent His Son Jesus (ever heard of Him) to die for all the sins of all men for all time. That's right William, Jesus was beaten, spat upon, stripped of His clothes, mocked by men of your character, pierced, and hung on a cross to die.

But, that was not good enough for YOU. YOU want God to pay special attention to all those people who YOU are better than, and to make sure that God punishes them for their (as you put it) "Big doo doo" sins, while you and your little sins are exempt.

You and your worthless, self-righteous, theology makes me sick. :vomit:

The whole basis for forgiveness, cleansing, and freedom from sin is rooted in the person and work of Christ. This is the most important issue (justification) that we agree on.

Issues relating to practical Christian living after grace conversion has and will be debated forever. Mature believers do not consign fellow believers to hell over these debates.

 

[Door]

Sin is sin, but the consequences to involved lives is greater with ongoing adultery vs impatience waiting for the iPhone 3G.

No, William, you are in serious error, and this is why you walk in darkness. Any sin has the same consequences before God. The wages of (any) sin is death.

Now, in this life, behaviors have different consequences, as they should, but God is not a puppetmaster as you suggest going around punishing "big doo doo" behaviors and winking at others. In fact, many people are not punished at all for their wicked behaviors, by God or anyone else. God will deal with those who reject His Son, because they are ALREADY condemned, because they have not believed. We, as humans, have a responsibility to punish those in this life who participate in evil behavior, and we are doing a lousy job, and reaping what we sow.

 

[Door]

TMature believers do not consign fellow believers to hell over these debates.

Did Jesus call the Pharisees children of the devil? Did He consign them to hell for their false doctrine?

Was Jesus immature?

 

[dreadknought]

Did Jesus call the Pharisees children of the devil? Did He consign them to hell for their false doctrine?

Was Jesus immature?

:idunno: hmmm... darkness? hmmm... light?

 

[Da'Saint]

:idunno: hmmm... darkness? hmmm... light?

Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

 

[Da'Saint]

That is ridiculous. A sinner becomes a Christian by believing the gospel and not by confessing their sins.

Are you serious? I don't even know how to respond to that! If a man doesnt realize that he is a sinner, WHY WOULD HE EVER NEED AN ATONEMENT? Or feel the need to trust in the Gospel?


Quote:
If I shall live by faith!
Faith becomes effective by the acknowledgement of all the good things that are in me in Christ!
Wouldn't confession and dwelling on my short comings be the opposite of faith?

Yes, and that makes my point. Confessing one's sin and short comings do not save anyone. Before a sinner can be saved and become a Christian he must believe the gospel.

How does that make your point??????????????????????????
The point of the Gospel is that you are a SINNER AND NOT WORTHYWhen you realize you are a SINNER AND NOT WORTHY you need a atonement! To say that one can be saved without realizing he is a SINNER is outrageous!