Why does Paul warn believers to not sin, to not grieve or quench the Spirit?!
Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door
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Why does Paul warn believers to not sin, to not grieve or quench the Spirit?!
Paul said: Follow me as I follow Christ. This is active, not passive. Jesus also commanded (imperative that one can obey or disobey) men to forsake x and 'follow me'.
does a man obey a command to be "full of wisdom" in order to be wise? NO. a man who has exhibited a life characterized by wisdom is called " full of wisdom". we do not achieve a state of " being filled with the Spirit" in order to grow spiritually. we grow spiritually and become controlled by the Spirit first and when we have reached spiritual maturity, we can then be rightfully called "full of the Spirit".
Da'Saint
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Apparently you are not married. It is possible to be in relationship, live under the same roof, but not have intimate fellowship due to fights, hurts, selfishness, stonewalling, etc. David is instructive in this problem as he reveals his heart in Ps. 32 and Ps. 51. Even with my children, we are always part of the family, but this does not mean we do not feud, even to the point of not talking and not fellowshipping. People in the same church family can also fight. They are in Christ and connected in the Body, but they do not have intimacy or deep relationships. They stare at the back of each other's heads in church and are not involved in face-to-face fellowship or loving concern. Sin separates the closeness in divine and human relationships. This is restored by ceasing to play games and being transparent before God and others. Take off the masks, warts and all
Do you force your wife or children to ask for forgiveness before you take up your fellowship with them?
The Spirit inspired the Greek grammar. It is an imperative/command (you be filled!) that can be obeyed/disobeyed (volitional). A simple proposition would be in the indicative tense e.g. You are full of the Spirit; you are filled with the Spirit (past).
In Acts, those who were filled with the Spirit at Pentecost were later filled again for specific ministry. It is not a matter of the Spirit leaking, but a fresh release of the indwelling Spirit for a task (not needed while you are sleeping, but when you are preaching or healing, for e.g.).
As a Pentecostal, we also recognize a subsequent work of the Spirit after conversion for empowerment that is initially evidenced by speaking in tongues (Acts 1:8; Acts 2:4).
No. Analogies are limited. However, if THEY refuse to talk to me because of offense on either side, there is no intimate fellowship. Confession, repentance, renewed obedience are practical remedies/conditions/patterns in Scripture to break the log jam. Unforgiveness is a killer of relationships. The root of bitterness can lead to enmity, hatred, divorce, murder.
Door: In I Corinthians 11, were you really saying they were just zonked and sleeping? In this context, sleep refers to physical death (cf. I Cor. 10:1-11). It is a metaphor or euphemism, not nighty night time until the sun comes up.
Jerry: If Door says it is death, did you misunderstand him, or did he change his mind?
Does it have practical implications for one's view of Christians and sin?
Jerry: If Door says it is death, did you misunderstand him, or did he change his mind?
Does it have practical implications for one's view of Christians and sin?
I reject charismania as much as the next guy. I am a biblical, classical Pentecostal by belief and experience.
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Door says this is demonic gooblygook, cursing, and that I am drunk (cf. Acts 2 critics on day of Pentecost), for personal and corporate edification (the latter when interpreted).
Paul and the Holy Spirit say it is a heavenly language, a gift from God, speaking in tongues (Acts 2:4; I Cor. 12-14).
There is no logical or exegetical basis for cessationism.
Door
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It is not death. Are you reading the NIV again?
Jerry Shugart
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At John 13 the Lord Jesus speaks of a two fold cleansing:
"After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, 'Lord, are you going to wash my feet?' Jesus replied, 'You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.' 'No,' said Peter, 'you shall never wash my feet.' Jesus answered, 'Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.' 'Then, Lord,' Simon Peter replied, 'not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!' Jesus answered, 'A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.' " (Jn.13:6-10).
Here is a commentary on these verses:
"The underlying imagery is of an oriental returning from the public baths to his house. His feet would acquire defilement and require cleaning, but not his body. So the believer is cleansed as before the law from all sin 'once for all' (Heb.10:1-2), but needs throughout his earthly life to bring his daily sins to the Father in confession, so that he may abide in unbroken fellowship with the Father and the Son (1 Jn.1:1-10). The blood of Christ answers forever to all the law could say as to the believer's guilt, but he needs constant cleansing from the defilement of sin" (The New Scofield Study Bible, note at John 13:10).
We can read that the Lord Jesus told His disciples, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."
If the cleansing of their feet was not in regard to the teaching of John at 1 John 1:9 then what is it in regard to?
In His grace,
Jerry
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I Cor. 11:30 in NIV says 'sleep'. I do not dispute the literal word, so this is an interpretative issue. Have you heard of the false doctrine 'soul sleep' held by SDAs and JWs? In this context, sleep refers to death, not snoring. Is Jesus a door? A loaf of bread? A light bulb? A water fountain?
Jerry is right on this one point. You are the first person I have ever heard say it does not refer to death. Did not Jesus and Paul use sleep to refer to death? This is not an unknown or exceptional metaphor.
Sleeping at night or during the day (nap) is a reward, not a punishment from God (God does not tolerate the division, pride, lack of love and unity in the Body of Christ surrounding the 'deipnon', the love feast before 'communion'). The Corinthian saints were mocking the holiness of God and paid a price, just as Ananias and Sapphira did for lying to the Holy Spirit.
to be filled with the Spirit is an ongoing process that works toward a goal of being spiritually mature. it is not a state of being you must be in order to grow spiritually. nowhere can it be found that a confession of sins must occur in order to be in the process of being spiritually mature. nor is the concept that you must be in fellowship with God in order to work toward spiritual maturity a principal that can be deduced by Ephesians 5:18. there is no scriptural support for the idea that a christian can walk in darkness or be out of fellowship with God. the only thing the bible says in this regard is that we have the choice to walk according to the flesh. and that is NOT synonomous with walking in darkness as in 1 John 1:6.
Door
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You and Jerry are insane! :kookoo: They are not dead :rotfl:
Read the text, you moron. They are weak, sick, and asleep, because they are gluttons, and drunkards.
"Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink?"
"So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you may not come together for judgment."
Read the text, you moron. They are weak, sick, and asleep, because they are gluttons, and drunkards.
"Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper, for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink?"
"So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another. If anyone is hungry, let him eat at home, so that you may not come together for judgment."
Da'Saint
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Thought this was pretty cool!
Many Christians think of sin as murder, adultery, homosexualism, cheating -- the "big" sins. But God says that anything that is not of faith is sin.
Romans 14:23
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
So, doing something out of worry or fear is a sin. Undressing a woman in your mind is also a sin. Coveting your neighbour's new car is also a sin. There is no end to it.
Since this is the truth of the matter, we must also ask ourselves if it is possible to confess every sin we commit. The answer is obvious. Many a times, we don't even know it when we sin.
Some might argue that we only confess the sins that we are aware of, but that is simply picking and choosing, and insulting the perfect holiness of God by assuming that God will close an eye on the other sins.
Let's face it, if we want to go down the road of confessing sins to be forgiven and to be right with God, we won't make it. It will take all day and we will still not be totally "clean".
Have you ever wondered why Abraham's mistakes are not mentioned in Hebrews (a book placed after the cross)? It is as though the Holy Spirit, when portraying Abraham as a hero of faith, "forgot" about his failures.
But the Holy Spirit did so rightly, being faithful to the risen Christ, who wiped out our sins and bought us forgiveness with His blood. In fact, the Bible says that because of Jesus' sacrifice, God does not even remember or keep an account of our sins (2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 4:8, Hebrews 8:12 and Hebrews 10:17). It is no wonder Abraham's mistakes are not recorded
Many Christians think of sin as murder, adultery, homosexualism, cheating -- the "big" sins. But God says that anything that is not of faith is sin.
Romans 14:23
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
So, doing something out of worry or fear is a sin. Undressing a woman in your mind is also a sin. Coveting your neighbour's new car is also a sin. There is no end to it.
Since this is the truth of the matter, we must also ask ourselves if it is possible to confess every sin we commit. The answer is obvious. Many a times, we don't even know it when we sin.
Some might argue that we only confess the sins that we are aware of, but that is simply picking and choosing, and insulting the perfect holiness of God by assuming that God will close an eye on the other sins.
Let's face it, if we want to go down the road of confessing sins to be forgiven and to be right with God, we won't make it. It will take all day and we will still not be totally "clean".
Have you ever wondered why Abraham's mistakes are not mentioned in Hebrews (a book placed after the cross)? It is as though the Holy Spirit, when portraying Abraham as a hero of faith, "forgot" about his failures.
But the Holy Spirit did so rightly, being faithful to the risen Christ, who wiped out our sins and bought us forgiveness with His blood. In fact, the Bible says that because of Jesus' sacrifice, God does not even remember or keep an account of our sins (2 Corinthians 5:19, Romans 4:8, Hebrews 8:12 and Hebrews 10:17). It is no wonder Abraham's mistakes are not recorded
Choleric
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I am firmly planted with Door on this one, but I am curious as to the thoughts of others on this passage in John about cleaning their feet.
Da'Saint
New member
Clarke's commentary:
Verse 10. He that is washed] That is, he who has been in the bath, as probably all the apostles had lately been, in order to prepare themselves the better for the paschal solemnity; for on that occasion, it was the custom of the Jews to bathe twice.
Needeth not save to wash his feet] To cleanse them from any dirt or dust that might have adhered to them, in consequence of walking from the bath to the place of supper. The washing, therefore, of the feet of such persons was all that was necessary, previously to their sitting down to table; The Hindoos walk home from bathing barefoot, and, on entering the house wash their feet again. To this custom our Lord evidently alludes
Barnes commentary:
Verse 10. He that is washed. This is a difficult passage, and interpreters have been divided about its meaning. Some have supposed that it was customary to bathe before eating the paschal supper, and that the apostles did it; Jesus having said, "he that hath bathed his body is clean except in regard to his feet--to the dirt contracted in returning from the bath, and that there was need only that the feet should be washed in order to prepare them properly to receive the supper." They suppose, also, that the lesson which Jesus meant to teach was that they were really pure
John 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Jamieson-Fausset-Brown commentary:
10. He that is washed--in this thorough sense, to express which the word is carefully changed to one meaning to wash as in a bath.
needeth not--to be so washed any more.
save to wash his feet--needeth to do no more than wash his feet (and here the former word is resumed, meaning to wash the hands or feet).
but is clean every whit--as a whole. This sentence is singularly instructive. Of the two cleansings, the one points to that which takes place at the commencement of the Christian life, embracing complete absolution from sin as a guilty state, and entire deliverance from it
Re 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
If that was all there was to it then all of the disciples would have understood why the Lord would wash their feet. But according to the Lord's own words they did not know why he was washing their feet:
"After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, 'Lord, are you going to wash my feet?' Jesus replied, 'You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.' 'No,' said Peter, 'you shall never wash my feet.' Jesus answered, 'Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.' 'Then, Lord,' Simon Peter replied, 'not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!' Jesus answered, 'A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.' " (Jn.13:6-10).
In this commentary we read, "Of the two cleansings, the one points to that which takes place at the commencement of the Christian life, embracing complete absolution from sin as a guilty state, and entire deliverance from it."
Why did you not quote the words from this commentary in regard to the other cleansing?
Here it is:
"The other cleansing, described as that of "the feet," is such as one walking from a bath quite cleansed still needs, in consequence of his contact with the earth. (Compare Exd 30:18, 19 ). It is the daily cleansing which we are taught to seek, when in the spirit of adoption we say, "Our Father which art in heaven . . . forgive us our debts" ( Mat 6:9, 12 ) and, when burdened with the sense of manifold shortcomings--as what tender spirit of a Christian is not?--is it not a relief to be permitted thus to wash our feet after a day's contact with the earth? This is not to call in question the completeness of our past justification."
In His grace,
Jerry
Godrulz is partially correct in 490 except for his charismatic nonsense. the apostles were indeed filled with the Spirit to perform a divine task. the filling was initiated by God and was not sought for by the apostles. when the task was complete, so was the filling of the Spirit. this filling though is different than the one paul mentions in Ephesians 5:18. that is why that passage should read be filled BY the Spirit. even a blind squirrel finds the occasional acorn.
JCWR
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And there's even more, Door!
Jesus … rose from supper and laid aside His garments, took a towel and girded Himself. After that, He poured water into a basin and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel" (John 13:4-5).
This is far more than a courteous gesture by which He is attempting to give His disciples an ethical lesson in serving. The washing of the disciples' feet rests upon and interprets the death of the Lord. The words laid aside (John 13:4) and later when He had taken His garments (John 13:12) are identical to those Jesus uses when He earlier speaks of His own death as the Good Shepherd: I lay down my life that I may take it again (John 10:11, John 10:15, John 10:17, John 13:18). This is an act of incredible humility when Jesus voluntarily does the menial work of a slave, but far more, it is a parable in action of the sacrifice of His own life.
Peter initially refuses the washing from Jesus. But if Peter will not accept the washing, Jesus says you have no part with Me (John 13:8). Peter's rejection of this gift is infinitely more significant than refusing the offer to have his dusty feet washed. He is spurning Jesus' personal gift of cleansing in His blood. The washing of Peter's feet points to Jesus' saving example on the Cross. It is more than an act of humility to be imitated. If Peter does not accept this gift, he cannot receive all that Jesus has to give him. The Greek expression eichein meros, which is translated here part of Him, means more than having fellowship with Jesus. Meros has the same meaning as the Hebrew beleq, the word which describes the heritage which God has promised Israel. So in rejecting Jesus' offer of washing, Peter is turning away from his 'heritage', giving up those riches that can only be his through Jesus' sacrificial death.
In response Peter goes to the other extreme. If this footwashing means receiving all the benefits of Jesus' death, then why not wash the whole body? The more washings, the better. But Peter has missed the point of what Jesus has said. It is the footwashing that is important, because it symbolizes Jesus' death. More washings do not add to the "once for all" saving work of Jesus on the Cross.
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