Discussion: Jerry Shugart vs Door

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tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
all all believers walk in the light period since they cannot sin. 1 John 3:9.


Those who have been born of God have lost the ability to live a lifestyle of sin. The word "cannot" in "he cannot go on sinning" (1 John 3:9) is the greek word "dunamai", from which we derive the English word "dynamite", and it refers to the person's ability. This is the effect of being born of God. It affects the person's free will such that it is inevitable that those born of God will exhibit behavior characteristic of children of God. If a child of God tries to live a lifestyle of sin, they find that they cannot do it., just as those who have not been born of God find they are incapable of living the Christian life.
 

tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
all believers are 100% filled with the Spirit 100% of the time.


I don’t know Greek, but I have an aunt who does. Here is what she emailed me regarding Eph 5:18



And do not get drunk with wine, for that is dissipation, but be filled [pleroo] with the Spirit. (Eph. 5:18)

In the imperative mood the Greek verb pleroo designates a divine mandate, a command that involves our choice. God would not mandate a status we already possess. We must choose to be or not to be filled with the Spirit.

Pleroo means “to fill up a deficiency, to fully influence, to fill with a certain quality.” ?
 

Da'Saint

New member
I don’t know Greek, but I have an aunt who does. Here is what she emailed me regarding Eph 5:18

That seems to be a mis-representation of this particular scripture! Paul "seems" to be telling them to be filled with the spirit as opposed to being filled with wine. Because when you are filled with wine or drunk rather, you make bad desicions that are based off of sircumstance as opposed to the wisdom of the spirit of God. (i.e. quenching the spirit) This doesn't "seem" to refer to different levels of one's possesion of the holy spirit. The bible teaches one spirit, and that the spirit will stay with the believer forever!

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
 

dreadknought

New member
That seems to be a mis-representation of this particular scripture! Paul "seems" to be telling them to be filled with the spirit as opposed to being filled with wine. Because when you are filled with wine or drunk rather, you make bad desicions that are based off of sircumstance as opposed to the wisdom of the spirit of God. (i.e. quenching the spirit) This doesn't "seem" to refer to different levels of one's possesion of the holy spirit. The bible teaches one spirit, and that the spirit will stay with the believer forever!

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


:thumb: In even a simpler thinking, don't put the created before the Creator.
 

tetelestai

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
That seems to be a mis-representation of this particular scripture! Paul "seems" to be telling them to be filled with the spirit as opposed to being filled with wine. Because when you are filled with wine or drunk rather, you make bad desicions that are based off of sircumstance as opposed to the wisdom of the spirit of God. (i.e. quenching the spirit) This doesn't "seem" to refer to different levels of one's possesion of the holy spirit. The bible teaches one spirit, and that the spirit will stay with the believer forever!

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Paul is telling them to be filled with the Holy Spirit instead of sinning.

Yes, the Holy Spirit "stays" with each believer forever. This is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is different than the filling of the Holy Spirit.

Read Jerry's original post in the one on one. Two different things, a believer's "walk" with God, and a believer's "position" with God.
 

tetelestai

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Dear Door:

I am leaving this afternoon for a vacation with my family (wife, 4 kids, 2 dogs). I will not be back until July 20th. Not only is there no internet where we are going, but I am not even taking my computer.

Therefore, I will not be able to participate in the one on one discussion in the immediate future. I feel as though I have tried to answer all of your questions the best I could. There comes a time when “discussing’ doctrine turns into “arguing over” doctrine. At that point, I believe it is no longer beneficial to either party when such point occurs. At that point, it is best to just turn it over to God, and let God deal with it. If what you believe as the truth, is indeed the truth, and you cannot convince the other part by discussion, then it is best to turn it over to God before it turns to arguing. God will show the other believer the truth if it is God’s will. I feel my vacation has come at the perfect time in regards to our “discussion”.

I want to thank you for creating the one on one, and the one on one discussion threads. Also thanks to Jerry, and to everyone else who has posted in the discussion thread. Before I go, I will leave you with one final commentary.

I believe that after salvation there is a purpose for the believer on earth. At salvation the new believer receives the Holy Spirit, and is guaranteed eternal life. All sins that such believer has committed, commits, and will commit have all been paid for by Jesus Christ on the cross. We will not be judged for these sins when we physically die.

However, after salvation the believer still has the old sin nature that was imputed to him through Adam’s seed. There is a constant power struggle in each believer for control of the soul. The Holy Spirit and the old sin nature is either in control of a believer’s soul at any given time. When the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit, the believer is walking in the light, when the believer commits a sin; the believer is carnal, or walking in the dark.

God, through His grace has given all believers a provision to return to walking in the light, or to be filled with the Holy Spirit. The execution of 1 John 1:9 is the provision to go from carnality to spirituality.

Confessing one’s sins does not mean getting dressed up, going to church, entering a confessional, getting down on your knees, telling a priest your sins, and then saying a bunch of Hail Mary’s.

Confessing as you (door) pointed out is the same as agreeing, or naming the sins. It’s just letting God know that you are aware of what you did, and that you know it was wrong. I am not a teacher. I’m sure I don’t fully understand what “confessing” means, or do a very good job articulating it, but John does tell us to do it.

As for growing spiritually, STP hit the nail on the head. A believer has to rightly divide the word of truth. This is the only way a believer can mature. The more doctrine a believer learns the more mature the believer becomes.

However, the believer can only metabolize doctrine if the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit. Doctrine is the word of God. The more we know of it, the more spiritually mature we are, and the more Christ-like we become.

The more Christ-like, and the more mature, the more we walk in the light. The more we walk in the light, the more mature, and Christ-like.

Christ in His hypostatic union had a human nature. Christ was filled with the Holy Spirit 100% of the time because he did not have a sin nature. That is why He was perfect and we are not (we have a sin nature). Acting Christ-like is only when we are filled with the Holy Spirit.

God has given us a way to be filled with the Holy Spirit. I believe it is 1 John 1:9 that accomplishes it.

Thanks again, and may God bless you in your “discussion”
 

Da'Saint

New member
Does anyone on here know this filled with the Holy Spirit doctrine? If so, could someone scripturally share this with me?
 

Da'Saint

New member
God, through His grace has given all believers a provision to return to walking in the light, or to be filled with the Holy Spirit. The execution of 1 John 1:9 is the provision to go from carnality to spirituality.

If you truly believed this was the christians provision to a closer walk, Do you honestly believe that Paul (or any other author in the New Testament for that matter) would not have hammered this point home with the church? Or at least mentioned it to them in even one of his writings?

1John wasn't writen until 85-90 A.D., that is close to 30 years after Pauls death! What did the church do for those thirty years? How did they walk with God if Paul never told them about confession for forgivness? Are we to assume that for a 30 year period, christians had broken relationships with the Father, based on not confessing their sins? A 30 year period where christians didnt know how to be "filled with the Holy Spirit"?
 

Door

New member
I don’t know Greek, but I have an aunt who does. Here is what she emailed me regarding Eph 5:18

Your aunt is an idiot. It has nothing to do with our choice. God is the one who fills. It is His choice.

We are filled with the Holy Spirit through faith in Christ. The verse is just making a comparison. Don't be filled with wine be filled with the Holy Spirit. If you are drunk, the Holy Spirit does not leak out of you. It simply means that you do not have to have anything else filling you.
 

Door

New member
Dear Door:

I am leaving this afternoon for a vacation with my family (wife, 4 kids, 2 dogs). I will not be back until July 20th.
Good riddance.

Not only is there no internet where we are going, but I am not even taking my computer.
Good, no one will have to listen to your anti-Christ rhetoric for 10 days at least.

However, after salvation the believer still has the old sin nature that was imputed to him through Adam’s seed. There is a constant power struggle in each believer for control of the soul. The Holy Spirit and the old sin nature is either in control of a believer’s soul at any given time. When the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit, the believer is walking in the light, when the believer commits a sin; the believer is carnal, or walking in the dark.
I'm sure Satan is thrilled with your little doctrine.

As for growing spiritually, STP hit the nail on the head. A believer has to rightly divide the word of truth. This is the only way a believer can mature. The more doctrine a believer learns the more mature the believer becomes.
If that is what StP thinks (which I doubt), he is wrong!

However, the believer can only metabolize doctrine if the believer is filled with the Holy Spirit.
You just condemned yourself as someone who has never had the Holy Spirit, because your doctrine is of the devil.
 

Door

New member
If you truly believed this was the christians provision to a closer walk, Do you honestly believe that Paul (or any other author in the New Testament for that matter) would not have hammered this point home with the church? Or at least mentioned it to them in even one of his writings?

1John wasn't writen until 85-90 A.D., that is close to 30 years after Pauls death! What did the church do for those thirty years? How did they walk with God if Paul never told them about confession for forgivness? Are we to assume that for a 30 year period, christians had broken relationships with the Father, based on not confessing their sins? A 30 year period where christians didnt know how to be "filled with the Holy Spirit"?
tetelestai just claimed what the Gnostics claimed, that he has reached a level of special knowledge from God because of his spiritual maturity. He is a cultic elitist. Not a Christian.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
If you truly believed this was the christians provision to a closer walk, Do you honestly believe that Paul (or any other author in the New Testament for that matter) would not have hammered this point home with the church? Or at least mentioned it to them in even one of his writings?
At John 13 the Lord Jesus speaks of a two fold cleansing:

"After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him. He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, 'Lord, are you going to wash my feet?' Jesus replied, 'You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand.' 'No,' said Peter, 'you shall never wash my feet.' Jesus answered, 'Unless I wash you, you have no part with me.' 'Then, Lord,' Simon Peter replied, 'not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!' Jesus answered, 'A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you.' " (Jn.13:6-10).​

Here is a commentary on these verses:

"The underlying imagery is of an oriental returning from the public baths to his house. His feet would acquire defilement and require cleaning, but not his body. So the believer is cleansed as before the law from all sin 'once for all' (Heb.10:1-2), but needs throughout his earthly life to bring his daily sins to the Father in confession, so that he may abide in unbroken fellowship with the Father and the Son (1 Jn.1:1-10). The blood of Christ answers forever to all the law could say as to the believer's guilt, but he needs constant cleansing from the defilement of sin" (The New Scofield Study Bible, note at John 13:10).​

We can read that the Lord Jesus told His disciples, " You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."

If the cleansing of their feet was not in regard to the teaching of John at 1 John 1:9 then what is it in regard to?

In His grace,
Jerry
 

Door

New member
Oh my gosh Jerry, you really are a godless deceiver!!!

:sozo: Please pay close attention to what Jerry just did. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing, and the evidence is now obvious!

Jerry stops at the end of verse 10, to try and convince you that you need to confess your sins, because only part of you is clean. If Jerry wanted you to know the truth, he would have quoted you verse 11, which says EXACTLY why Jesus said what He did.

John 13:10-11

Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."

The "not all of you" is referring to JUDAS!!!

Jerry is not interested in the truth folks. The evidence is blatantly clear!
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Oh my gosh Jerry, you really are a godless deceiver!!!

:sozo: Please pay close attention to what Jerry just did. He is a wolf in sheep's clothing, and the evidence is now obvious!

Jerry stops at the end of verse 10, to try and convince you that you need to confess your sins, because only part of you is clean. If Jerry wanted you to know the truth, he would have quoted you verse 11, which says EXACTLY why Jesus said what He did.
There you go again, projecting your lack of integrity to others.
John 13:10-11

Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."

The "not all of you" is referring to JUDAS!!!

Jerry is not interested in the truth folks. The evidence is blatantly clear!
If I am not interested iin the truth then why did I quote a translation that says:

"And you are clean, though not every one of you."

You need to get your facts straight before you accuse others of deception!

Why didn't you answer my question, Door?

Instead of answering you build a strawman in order to attack, probably in the hope that no one will notice that you have no answer.

Tell me, Mr. Accuser of the Brethren, why would I be trying to deceive others by somehow suggesting that the words "not all of you" is referring tlo the Apostles since I did n ot even quote those words. Instead, here are the words which I quoted:

"And you are clean, though not every one of you."

You made another blunder and you should apologize, but I will hold my breath.
 
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Door

New member
You made another blunder and you should apologize, but I will hold my breath.

Your whole point was stated right here...

If the cleansing of their feet was not in regard to the teaching of John at 1 John 1:9 then what is it in regard to?

Not to mention your quote of a commentary from a godless heretic.

You are not fooling anyone, you fully intended to deceive people by attributing what Jesus did with confession of sin.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You are not fooling anyone, you fully intended to deceive people by attributing what Jesus did with confession of sin.
You made a false accusation against me. You said:
Jerry stops at the end of verse 10, to try and convince you that you need to confess your sins, because only part of you is clean. If Jerry wanted you to know the truth, he would have quoted you verse 11, which says EXACTLY why Jesus said what He did.

John 13:10-11

Jesus said to him, "He who has bathed needs only to wash his feet, but is completely clean; and you are clean, but not all of you." For He knew the one who was betraying Him; for this reason He said, "Not all of you are clean."
According to you I did not quote verse 11 because I wanted everyone to think that the words "Not all of you are clean" was in regard to being partially clean.

But if I was trying to deceive others then why would I have quoted this translation of the Lord Jesus' words?:

"And you are clean, though not every one of you."

This is typical for you. Yiu care nothing of making false accusations against others, and when you are caught you care nothing about apologizing to the person to whom you made false accusations.

Your purpose has been accomplished. You do not want an honest discussion on the words of the Lord Jesus at John 13 because you have no answers.

You call others 'Godless" but if anyone was to judge you by your behavior on this forum it is you, more than anyone else, who appears to be Godless.
 

voltaire

BANNED
Banned
Regarding Pleroo and Acts 5:18, pleroo is indeed a divine command but the command is about an action and an event. it is not about a status. the more accurate english translation of Ephesians 5:18 is - and do not be drunk with wine, in which is dissipation; but be filled BY the Spirit.
 

godrulz

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I am interested in this also. I would like to know how someone who's life
is hid with Christ in God can not be in fellowship with God...

Apparently you are not married. It is possible to be in relationship, live under the same roof, but not have intimate fellowship due to fights, hurts, selfishness, stonewalling, etc. David is instructive in this problem as he reveals his heart in Ps. 32 and Ps. 51. Even with my children, we are always part of the family, but this does not mean we do not feud, even to the point of not talking and not fellowshipping. People in the same church family can also fight. They are in Christ and connected in the Body, but they do not have intimacy or deep relationships. They stare at the back of each other's heads in church and are not involved in face-to-face fellowship or loving concern. Sin separates the closeness in divine and human relationships. This is restored by ceasing to play games and being transparent before God and others. Take off the masks, warts and all:eek:
 
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